What is a man?

[Mr Person]

I am trying to apply some critical thinking to the subject.

Yeah, that isn't what's going on here.

 

[gino]

This is bigotry. You call everything that disagrees with you propaganda. You just cant admit it. Thats why no one bothers with you.

Any time anyone questions the trans community, they are personally attacked. Great way to debate guys. And you wonder why many people refuse to consider your viewpoint? This is a reason why I don't support the trans community. Too much entitlement.

 

[Unbeknownst]

Any time anyone questions the trans community, they are personally attacked. Great way to debate guys. And you wonder why many people refuse to consider your viewpoint? This is a reason why I don't support the trans community. Too much entitlement.

Yes, so entitled to want to be treated like equal human beings, and do not have their rights up for debate. But of course, don't support and entire group of people because of one generalization you made about them.

 

[grip]

I don't think that's what @Good4Nothin is saying. She's saying that promoting meds and SRS for gender dysphoria, carte blanche, is not an absolute for every single individual. After some counseling, it may well be the only suggestive solution but isn't an automatic answer for everyone with GD who can fit into society in other ways.

The transgender(s) in question may be having a psychological dysfunction fitting into a predominately binary society where the culture's expectations from people to fit in is more to blame.

 

[Good4Nothin]

I don't know about all that. It's easy to get confused about sex and gender in today's overindulgent identity crisis and the roles of victimhood. I think regardless of these hierarchies we create or how we dress ourselves up as we're all just following our base instincts as monkeys humping each other. Only humanity thinks all of these idiosyncratic details and labels really change anything in our status within the social order.

Gender used to be biological, not a choice. And sexuality has always been a mess when trying to impose civil order upon it.

I agree the victimhood roles have become an unhealthy obsession. And transgender activism is an over-reaction to past persecution. I think young people need the opposite of what they are getting now -- they need more toughness, and more faith in their individual natures. Feel an urgent need to dye your hair pink, guys? Go right ahead, no one cares anymore.

 

[Lisa]

I don't think that's what @Good4Nothin is saying. She's saying that promoting meds and SRS for gender dysphoria, carte blanche, is not an absolute for every single individual. After some counseling, it may well be the only suggestive solution but isn't an automatic answer for everyone with GD who can fit into society in other ways.

The transgender(s) in question may be having a psychological dysfunction fitting into a predominately binary society where the culture's expectations from people to fit in is more to blame.

Nobody is pushed by Drs or psychologists to take hormones or get surgery. Those are completely up to the patient, despite what some people claim. It is the cost of the surgery that holds many people because it is still not covered by many insurance policies despite the APAs ban on preexisting conditions. The various surgeries can be $25-50K or more. FtM genital surgery is more complicated and isn't very functional because creating a functional penis still has no been perfected.

I agree the victimhood roles have become an unhealthy obsession. And transgender activism is an over-reaction to past persecution. I think young people need the opposite of what they are getting now -- they need more toughness, and more faith in their individual natures. Feel an urgent need to dye your hair pink, guys? Go right ahead, no one cares anymore.

There is no transgendered activism to push people to be trans. I dare you to prove me wrong. The only activism is the fight for equal civil rights for LGBT people.

 

[bomberfox]

A butterfly?

Im goin with the castlevania answer: A miserable pile of secrets

 

[bomberfox]

I agree the victimhood roles have become an unhealthy obsession. And transgender activism is an over-reaction to past persecution. I think young people need the opposite of what they are getting now -- they need more toughness, and more faith in their individual natures. Feel an urgent need to dye your hair pink, guys? Go right ahead, no one cares anymore.

Yeah what we need is some out of touch old fart.

 

[Lycanthrope]

Should this little boy be allowed to live his life as a girl, so he can do and wear the things he likes, without worrying about being judged by the bullies? And if he does live as a girl, what happens when he becomes a teenager and starts looking like a male?

Is it your theory that if a child were allowed to express themselves outside of traditionally accepted gender roles, they wouldn't want to alter their bodies surgically/chemically?

 

[Lisa]

Is it your theory that if a child were allowed to express themselves outside of traditionally accepted gender roles, they wouldn't want to alter their bodies surgically/chemically?

What is the problem of letting people live as they want to live, even if they choose medical assistance? Does that activity of self-determination somehow lessen the survivability of the human race or is it just about these people (Buck, G4N or others) needing to feel in control of others or feel they others must seek their approval?

 

[Lycanthrope]

What is the problem of letting people live as they want to live, even if they choose medical assistance? Does that activity of self-determination somehow lessen the survivability of the human race or is it just about these people (Buck, G4N or others) needing to feel in control of others or feel they others must seek their approval?

I don't understand it either, although apparently the justification for control is when children are involved.

As in, "Maybe if we find a way to normalize Timmy wanting to wear dresses/make-up/play with dolls, he won't be as driven to want medical assistance to legitimize how he identifies himself re: gender."

 

[Lisa]

I don't understand it either, although apparently the justification for control is when children are involved.

Some of these people have serious control issues. Some might be closeted themselves.

As in, "Maybe if we find a way to normalize Timmy wanting to wear dresses/make-up/play with dolls, he won't be as driven to want medical assistance to legitimize how he identifies himself re: gender."

That would center on if Timmy was really Tammy(transgender) are they non-binary or just a crossdresser.

The first likely would want transition care, non-binary would be undetermined and crossdressers (drag queens or kings) likely would not. Trans, non-binary, and crossdressers are not the same, despite similar outside appearances.

The Harry Benjamin scale of gender has fallen out of favor in medicine but it explains this situation and was formulated in 1966. Harry Benjamin was an endocrinologist/sexologist who was the forerunner of gender identity treatment and the Harry Benjamin Association was the forerunner of WPATH.

The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), formerly the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association (HBIGDA), is a professional organization devoted to the understanding and treatment of gender dysphoria. Professionals include anyone working in disciplines such as medicine, psychology, law, social work, counseling, psychotherapy, family studies, sociology, anthropology, speech and voice therapy and sexology. Non-professionals may also join, paying the same membership fee, but without voting privileges.[4] The organization is funded by its membership and by donations and grants from non-commercial sources.[5]

Benjamin scale - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bum]

Or a woman. What does it mean to be one gender or the other. Aside from physical and reproductive differences, what does it mean to be male or female?

Why is additional criteria is needed?

 

[guillermojf]

I hope people here know about intersex. People can be born with mixed or rare genitals, even to a point where they require surgery to change their body or so. Or sometimes a little boy grow to develope a womanly chest because of rare chromosome arrangements. Some of these intersex people are labeled transgender simply because their parents told them to dress like a certain gender although their rare chromosomes or sex did not fit with such gender. As kids become adults, their hormones or other biological processes can sometimes contradict such gender too, especially if the kids were born with rare or mixed chromosomes or genitals.

It's not fair to judge people who were born differently.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Is it your theory that if a child were allowed to express themselves outside of traditionally accepted gender roles, they wouldn't want to alter their bodies surgically/chemically?

Children would probably like to alter their bodies, and they trust adults and over-estimate their powers. If they understood the negatives, if they were more mature, they might choose to be themselves regardless of external appearance.

 

[Good4Nothin]

What is the problem of letting people live as they want to live, even if they choose medical assistance? Does that activity of self-determination somehow lessen the survivability of the human race or is it just about these people (Buck, G4N or others) needing to feel in control of others or feel they others must seek their approval?

I don't think anyone said here they shouldn't do what they want. I said the possible harms of these treatments should be acknowledged and made known. The example I gave, repeatedly, was of a child making a decision that will prevent him or her from ever having anything resembling normal sexual intimacy. A child does not understand these things, is not aware of how their future life may be damaged.

 

[Good4Nothin]

I hope people here know about intersex. People can be born with mixed or rare genitals, even to a point where they require surgery to change their body or so. Or sometimes a little boy grow to develope a womanly chest because of rare chromosome arrangements. Some of these intersex people are labeled transgender simply because their parents told them to dress like a certain gender although their rare chromosomes or sex did not fit with such gender. As kids become adults, their hormones or other biological processes can sometimes contradict such gender too, especially if the kids were born with rare or mixed chromosomes or genitals.

It's not fair to judge people who were born differently.

Of course we are aware of intersex. That is a completely different subject. It makes sense for an intersex child to have some kind of medical treatment. But we are talking about physically NORMAL children.

 

[Lisa]

I don't think anyone said here they shouldn't do what they want. I said the possible harms of these treatments should be acknowledged and made known. The example I gave, repeatedly, was of a child making a decision that will prevent him or her from ever having anything resembling normal sexual intimacy. A child does not understand these things, is not aware of how their future life may be damaged.

Do you sincerely think that teens aren't told of the risks and long-term implications of the medications that they might be prescribed?

 

[Good4Nothin]

Do you sincerely think that teens aren't told of the risks and long-term implications of the medications that they might be prescribed?

You could read the article. Instead of continuing to make uninformed comments. The risk I mentioned, as one example, is not being publicized. It is considered transphobia to ever say anything critical of the standard treatments. So children are making a terrible sacrifice that will last the rest of their lives. If they could know and understand what an orgasm is, I doubt they would take the blockers.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Academia has become devoted to political correctness. Critical thinking that is not politically correct is punished. It is ironic that transgender ideology conforms to the traditional gender stereotypes. And is at odds with feminist values.

 

[Lisa]

You could read the article. Instead of continuing to make uninformed comments. The risk I mentioned, as one example, is not being publicized. It is considered transphobia to ever say anything critical of the standard treatments. So children are making a terrible sacrifice that will last the rest of their lives. If they could know and understand what an orgasm is, I doubt they would take the blockers.

You seem to think, without any supporting evidence, that patients aren't told about the possible contraindications and they aren't discussed at length with both the teen and their legal guardian before the Dr writes and prescription?

Have you lodged a formal complaint about the use of puberty blockers with the endocrinologist society, WPATH, and the FDA?

Are Puberty Blockers Safe?​

Most experts, including our team, believe that puberty blockers are safe:

• The Endocrine Society and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health support the use of puberty blockers for kids who want to delay or prevent unwanted physical changes.
• The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has approved puberty blockers for children who start puberty at a young age.

Puberty Blockers

Our Transgender Center offers puberty blockers, which can delay and help prevent unwanted changes like breast growth, facial hair, periods and voice deepening.

www.stlouischildrens.org

 

[Good4Nothin]

You seem to think, without any supporting evidence, that patients aren't told about the possible contraindications and they aren't discussed at length with both the teen and their legal guardian before the Dr writes and prescription?

Have you lodged a formal complaint about the use of puberty blockers with the endocrinologist society, WPATH, and the FDA?

Puberty Blockers

Our Transgender Center offers puberty blockers, which can delay and help prevent unwanted changes like breast growth, facial hair, periods and voice deepening.

www.stlouischildrens.org

No one really knows the long term risks of puberty blockers, since they only recently are being used on large numbers of kids. The experts in that article I posted have seen enough cases to have an opinion.

 

[BrotherFease]

You don't care about anything I had to say. I am not interested in repeating the typical transgender propaganda. I am trying to apply some critical thinking to the subject.

What are you talking about? What the poster is something our professional medical and psychological societies have been saying for years. Just because you don't agree, doesn't make it untrue.

 

[Lisa]

No one really knows the long term risks of puberty blockers, since they only recently are being used on large numbers of kids. The experts in that article I posted have seen enough cases to have an opinion.

All medications have risks. You need to make the decision on the risk-reward ratio for your circumstances.

If you don't like the meds then don't take them. Bring up these issues with your Dr. or psychologist. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to swallow anything. If you don't like your Dr find a different one that works better for you.

 

[BrotherFease]

Or a woman. What does it mean to be one gender or the other. Aside from physical and reproductive differences, what does it mean to be male or female?

In almost every known human society, males are the warriors and hunters, and females gather plants and take care of their babies. There are obvious physical reasons for this.

In our modern society, these traditional roles have evolved. Men have a tendency to go into certain kinds of work, and women generally prefer other kinds. But now it is acceptable for men to be nurses and for women to be construction workers, although it is not very common.

Are we born with these preferences, or are they mostly learned from observing others? A little girl sees what her mother, sisters, female friends, all like to do and she may imitate it. And boys may imitate their fathers, brother, friends, etc.

But is it all imitation, and could some of it be inborn? We know that children seem to be born with certain personality traits, which they did not learn from anyone. Children in the same family can have very different temperaments.

So it seems like preferences for traditionally male or female toys and games could be something we are born with, at least partially.

But are these preferences somehow hardwired into the brain? Probably not, since male and female brains don't have meaningful physical differences, as far as anyone knows. https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/700086

A materialist approach is very common these days in neuroscience, so some might claim that there must be physical differences, that just have not yet been discovered. But the materialist approach could be wrong, and in my opinion it is definitely wrong.

But let's say a little boy naturally prefers what little girls prefer. He plays with baby dolls and he wants to wear dresses. Let's say no doctor can find any physical reason for his feminine personality. As he gets older, he is dismayed that just because he is a boy he is expected to like certain activities, which he does not like. And he is tormented by the other kids if he wears feminine clothes. Well, he might develop a case of gender dysphoria.

Should this little boy be allowed to live his life as a girl, so he can do and wear the things he likes, without worrying about being judged by the bullies? And if he does live as a girl, what happens when he becomes a teenager and starts looking like a male?

If society were more tolerant of variations in social gender roles, then maybe gender dysphoria would not occur. And society has been becoming more tolerant. Maybe that little boy won't have to be transformed into a female after all. Maybe he can keep his natural maleness and his health, while doing the feminine things he likes and wearing the clothes he likes. Maybe in the future, this will be considered normal.

It does not bother me at all when people act differently than what we expect based on social stereotypes. I think it's nice to see someone being their self and not worrying about being judged.

I never felt that I was a traditional female. I always had some typical female traits and some typical male traits. If I were a kid now, instead of in the 1950s, I would probably allow myself to be myself. And I wonder if that could work for some of the kids that are now being "affirmed" as transgender, and set on a path of unnatural medical procedures.

I realize that not everyone now days cares about natural health. And I realize there is a lot of faith now in the powers of medical interventions. My concern with transgenderism has nothing to do with any kind of bigotry, or pseudo-religious judgmentalism. I am concerned about the damage being done to children's and teenagers' bodies.

Lets start off with getting your facts straight.

The concept of men always being the hunters, and women being the bearers is simply not true at all. See link here. You seem to focused on old western values.

Gender Dysphoria has nothing to do with being bullied, but about the mind and body being unaligned with each other, and stress involved in the different wavelengths. People who medically transition from one sex to another sex, have to go through tons of medical and psychological evaluation. Hormones treatment starts at least in their late teens. I am not sure what "damage" has been done. Transitioning has mostly benefited people living fuller and happier lives.