What does Putin want? The same thing Trump sought.

[Razoo]

"What does Putin want? His aims go well beyond Ukraine. As the Atlantic’s Anne Applebaum summarizes: He “wants to put so much strain on Western and democratic institutions, especially the European Union and NATO, that they break up. He wants to keep dictators in power wherever he can, in Syria, Venezuela, and Iran. He wants to undermine America, to shrink American influence, to remove the power of the democracy rhetoric that so many people in his part of the world still associate with America. He wants America itself to fail.”

Trump’s foreign policy sought to do much of what Putin wants to achieve, including intimidating Ukraine by withholding vital defensive weapons. Trump, like his role model in Moscow, favored weakening NATO, elevating dictators (from China to Turkey to North Korea to Hungary to Russia), undermining democratic elections, demonizing the media (the best check against power-hungry politicians) and finding common ground with kleptocratic-style governments.

...Certainly, there is a disconnect on the right, with many Republicans in the Senate trying to find some way to blame President Biden for insufficient resolve in opposing Putin’s invasion scheme. (Republicans in disarray!) But just a couple of years ago, these Republicans were perfectly content supporting a president who extorted Ukraine to get dirt on Biden, tried to welcome Russia back into the Group of Seven, provided cover for Russian interference in the 2016 election and parroted Russian propaganda on Crimea. It takes quite a feat of contortion for these Republicans to remain defenders of Trump and deplore his successor for not doing enough to stand up to Putin."


Link

The only difference is, Putin attacks a foreign country, Trump attacks his own country's democratic institutions.

I say TRump is working to weaken the USA. Trump got caught trying to over throw the USA. Trump is working for Koch Oil and Putin. Voters ousted Trump and his anti American cabinet. The ALEC GOP is working for Putin.

The ALEC GOP is dying a slow painful death. We voters need to put the final nails in that coffin.

 

[j brown's body]

I'm aware they claimed there was corruption and Shokin was doing nothing to prosecute it. However, that doesn't change the fact that BIden said we're not giving you the billion dollars unless he's fired. That is literally what Biden said he did. He claims it's because of corruption, but nobody proved that, and it's no more his business to make that internal Ukraine decision than for Trump to demand an investigation of what he thinks is corruption in Ukraine, right?

Malarkey!

Explainer: Biden, allies pushed out Ukrainian prosecutor because he didn't pursue corruption cases

Trump has claimed Biden forced out Ukraine's top prosecutor in order to benefit his son. Former diplomats say the prosecutor wasn't doing his job.

www.usatoday.com

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Malarkey!

Explainer: Biden, allies pushed out Ukrainian prosecutor because he didn't pursue corruption cases

Trump has claimed Biden forced out Ukraine's top prosecutor in order to benefit his son. Former diplomats say the prosecutor wasn't doing his job.

www.usatoday.com

LOL - people from outside Ukraine didn't like what a Ukrainian prosecutor was or wasn't doing, so they extorted Ukraine into firing him, and that's supposed to make it right?

 

[SoCal]

Regarding Ukraine, I am not saying it's our responsiblity to protect Ukraine. I'm saying Biden and those on his side - many democrats and republicans both - are saying it's "our" responsiblity to protect Ukraine. However, the policies set out by Biden in the run up to this invasion did notthing but encourage the invasion. Putin was essentially told that there would be no outside help for Ukraine, and that was that. It's an amazing thing that I see Ukraine bolstering its defense and according to the news it is succeeding in holding off the onslaught. I'm suspicious of the news reports, though - we can't know what is and isnt propaganda. Russia is on the doorstep of Kyiv and it's only been a few days - I think the US military actions have set a new expectation for wars - we think invasions only take a few days, like they did in Iraq and result in only a few casualties on our side - but, even if the conquest of Ukraine takes months, it wouldn't be unusual from a historical perspective. I don't know if the news about Ukraine's success, and how Putin is "furious" and how he's now changed from before and behaving "erratically" and that he has a screw loose sounds like propaganda to me. So, I don't know...

Declaring we will, protect democracy and/or Ukraine is a far cry from declaring it's our responsibility. I haven't heard about this, if you have a Biden or Senator quote please post it. While we should follow thru, do the right thing and support both democracy and Ukraine, I don't think it's our responsibility either.

Which policies do you believe encouraged Putin's invasion and when did Biden tell him that no one would help defend Ukraine?? The news from Ukraine is coming from too many independent sources and reporting the same things for it be be propaganda. It's obvious Putin's invasion isn't going as planned which makes the reporting of him being furious understandable. We (the general public) have no proof that Putin has a screw loose and if erratic behaviour kept autocrats from power, Trump would have been impeached after three months. But saber rattling his nukes sounds like he might need a couple of screws torqued to me.

On the Washington Examiner opinion piece, we'll just have to disagree that, "...Biden's first instinct was weakness..."
Cont.

 

[SoCal]

...I stand with Ukraine, but I recognize that the West, too, had a hand in creating this crisis, and the far Left is correct that US policy of NATO expansion, together with its meddling in Ukraine a decade ago, generated this kind of counter-action by Putin. If Putin did nothing, Ukraine was going to eventually join NATO, and that was completely unacceptable to Putin. The West is playing a dangerous game here, and Putin views this as an existential threat to Russia, which is already weak (economy smaller than Texas), and a military that is far more limited than America's military (except for nukes). So, while Ukraine has a right not to be invaded by Russia, it is certainly not hard to figure out why Putin is doing it, and we do need to recognize that the West is not morally (or legally) pure and righteous here...

Let us remember that before the rise of Trump's isolationists, both republicans and democrats supported the meddling and independence of Ukraine. Even President Bush told Ukrainian American visitors to the White House that he might recognize Ukraine if it withdrew from the Soviet Union. The all that has changed, now most conservatives have a sympathetic view of Putin's invasions of Crimea and Ukraine, "...this crisis was triggered by the west's attempt to pull Ukraine decisively into its orbit..." "...Putin's absorption [Invasion] of Crimea and support for the rebellion in eastern Ukraine is clearly defensive..."

Also many conveniently forget or ignore that the, “Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine”. It's a decision Ukrainian's regret, "We gave away the capability for nothing,” Andriy Zahorodniuk, a former defense minister of Ukraine, said this month about his nation’s former nuclear weapons. “Now, every time somebody offers us to sign a strip of paper, the response is, ‘Thank you very much. We already had one of those some time ago.’”

Did anyone believe Ukraine posed a threat to Russia? I agree that Ukraine was going to eventually join NATO and in Putin's mind it might be unacceptable, but we don't always don't get what we want do we? Even dictators. Has a NATO country ever made an offensive move against a neighboring country? Russia currently has three democracies on its border, two of which are NATO members. If Putin overruns and pulls Ukraine into the Russian Federation, Russia will have six democracies and six NATO members on its border. That sounds like a much more volatile situation to me.

Supporting, promoting and defending democracies or, "meddling" as you would call it goes back to the founding to NATO and isn't an accomplishment that only the far left can take credit for. We didn't install a democracy in Ukraine regardless of what FOX might be claiming, So even though Putin reneged on his agreement and given that Ukraine has a right to exist as an independent democratic country, if we know that that is completely unacceptable to Putin, then the defense of Ukraine by the West is not morally (or legally) pure?...

 

[Grand Mal]

We may have to end up saving the ass of the country that you live in for the 3rd time.

Yeah right.
News for you- the history you learned in middle school wasn't intended to inform you, it was intended to indoctrinate you.
The Soviet Union won WW2 in Europe and America's what, 9 months? participation in WW1 had just minimal effect. It was basically decided before the first Yank landed in France.

 

[SoCal]

When Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and then seized Crimea, the Obama administration offered equivocation and mild sanctions. Biden was a senior party to this failure to enforce deterrence. As tensions began growing around Ukraine last year, Biden's first instinct was weakness. He canceled U.S. Navy deployments to the Black Sea and pressured the Pentagon to reduce its military activity near Russian borders. Biden has also steadfastly opposed Republican-sponsored sanctions against Putin's Nord Stream II natural gas pipeline, lobbying Senate Democrats to join his misguided opposition. While Germany did suspend that pipeline's certification Tuesday, the suspension is unlikely to be permanent. Until mid-January, Biden slow-rolled the delivery of anti-tank weapons to Ukraine. Even now, Biden refuses to provide Ukraine with significant quantities of anti-air missile systems. Instead, the far smaller Baltic member states have been left to fill this desperate Ukrainian need (and even then, Biden slow-rolled approving their doing so with U.S.-made weapons).

Presidents make these kinds of decisions, not, "senior parties". And again, on the Washington Examiner article we'll just have to disagree that, "... Biden is running scared..." I suggest a more fair minded source of news and reporting in the future.

...I would expect him not to equivocate. And, if he truly does want to help Ukraine, he should have done so, not with mere wishy-washy rhetoric, but with clarity and strength, backed up by actions. One of the reasons I thought the news about the Russian invasion being imminent was over-hyped was because Biden had not already imposed strong sanctions. If they knew it was coming, as they said they did, why hold back on sanctions? The crushing sanctions should have been imposed, and only withdrawn if Putin relented. By just blathering on about what will happen "if" Putin invades, none of it being the use of force, it's just a greenlight to Putin, who isn't all that concerned about being sancitioned and is comfortable fighiting it out in Ukraine if the world just stands by and watches. He upped the nuke readiness as a message to the West - "**** with me on this, and I'm ready to go to the, literal, nuclear option." Putin has balls. And, this is a dangerous time.

Wishy-washy rhetoric?? He's almost single handedly united the free world against Putin. We correctly held back sanctions, I don't think we should start a preemptive war over a non NATO country. If sanctions were imposed without provocation Putin would have had a public relations bonanza. Besides, we couldn't have imposed sanctions tough enough to make a real difference without the EU, Japan, Canada, UK, Germany and Australia and they wouldn't have joined us before the invasion.

Supplying arms and money is one thing, but I'm damn glad Biden has made it very clear that he has no intention of deploying U.S. military forces to Ukraine. Putin knows that 90% of Americans wouldn't support another war, especially one against Russia, so to making idle threats about our military defending Ukraine is insanity. It is a dangerous time as the west will be ****ing with him on this now and in the future...

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Presidents make these kinds of decisions, not, "senior parties". And again, on the Washington Examiner article we'll just have to disagree that, "... Biden is running scared..." I suggest a more fair minded source of news and reporting in the future.


Wishy-washy rhetoric?? He's almost single handedly united the free world against Putin. We correctly held back sanctions, I don't think we should start a preemptive war over a non NATO country. If sanctions were imposed without provocation Putin would have had a public relations bonanza. Besides, we couldn't have imposed sanctions tough enough to make a real difference without the EU, Japan, Canada, UK, Germany and Australia and they wouldn't have joined us before the invasion.

Supplying arms and money is one thing, but I'm damn glad Biden has made it very clear that he has no intention of deploying U.S. military forces to Ukraine. Putin knows that 90% of Americans wouldn't support another war, especially one against Russia, so to making idle threats about our military defending Ukraine is insanity. It is a dangerous time as the west will be ****ing with him on this now and in the future...

If sanctions imposed without provocation? What in the world are you on about? The Democrats have been demanding more and more sanctions on Russia because they say that Russia has been and continues to be interfering in our elections and destroying "our democracy." If that were really true, shouldn't Biden have imposed the harshest sanctions already? Jesus, Putin was bent on destroying the American electoral system, and interfered so much that they installed Donald Trump in the White House. They said Trump was not a legitimate President and that "fascist, racist, maniac" who had such mental issues the democrats were threatening the 25th amendment to declare him incapacitated and they impeached him twice for what amounts to allegations of treason... and you think sanctions should have been held back? LOL. I guess you don't believe what the Democrats were telling you for 5 years about Donald Trump, eh?

And the Obama Admin fomented a coup in the Ukraine to install a pro-western government, interfering in Ukrainian democracy. And, you're worried that "sanctions" would put Putin over the edge?

...pull the other one...

 

[ataraxia]

We didn't before, either. That was just propaganda. Holding NATO members accountable to their obligations is called being serious and not allowing member states to take advantage.

I am not sure how we went from Trump saying that NATO was obsolete to saying that he just wanted NATO members held accountable to their obligations. That's just really too big a twist of logic.

I think he just says stuff, and then Fox News has to come up with ways to spin it to have it come out right. At least this time it wasn't the ol' "he was just joking".

 

[ataraxia]

1. You state that conservative environmental policies killed thousands of people, as if that is a fact or a given. It isn't. You'll need to produce evidence or at least cite it. What we do know is that many policies result in unintended consequences, even fatal ones. Like the environmentalist movement to ban DDT arguably resulted in millions of deaths. https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB113236412756302115 - other policies like environmental preservation regulations arguably increased carbon emissions globally - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/02/190204124200.htm#:~:text=preserve natural ecosystems.-,Although the regulations seem to have improved preservation efforts, they,in the journal PLOS ONE - there are unintended consequences of increased tele-health and remote healthcare - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5171569/

There are such costs in universal health care systems, too. A study the Fraser Institute titled The Effect of Wait Times on Mortality in Canada estimated that “increases in wait times for medically necessary care in Canada between 1993 and 2009 may have resulted in between 25,456 and 63,090 (with a middle value of 44,273) additional deaths among females.” Adjusting for the difference in populations (the US has about 9 times as many people), that middle value inflates to an estimated 400,000 additional deaths among females over a 16 year period. This translates to an estimated 25,000 additional female deaths each year if the American system were to suffer from increased mortality similar to that experienced in Canada due to increases in wait times https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/effect-of-wait-times-on-mortality-in-canada.pdf - do those who advance such policies "want" these deaths?

The suggestion that it is only "conservative" policies which have negative consequences is naive. The analysis of what governmental policies and actions cost the fewest lives is always a complicated analysis. You're probably already trying to figure out how to tell me that the cost in lives of not doing universal healthcare is way worse than doing it. Certainly a fine argument to make, but you'll need to show your work. And, it just means that you're engaging in a balancing test and the "trolley problem" (do you pull a lever to divert a trolley headed toward a cliff which will kill the people on board, but by diverting the trolley you condemn a couple other people who are stuck on the track to certain doom). A cold policy analysis will try to determine which course of action saves the most people - but there is the rub. There must be an analysis of which course saves the most people, and that has not been established when it comes to most complicated policy decisions.

That's just, also, leaving the policy decision up to the single determining factor of which saves the most lives. There are other factors that a free and democratic society takes into account, including actual costs, other options which can be attempted, the effects of such regulations on freedom and liberty interests and the dignity of the individual. Certainly, for example, a policy could be enacted requiring speed limits no higher than 25mph, four point race car style seatbelts, and roll cages installed in all vehicles, and we know that would save 10s of thousands of lives per year, but we don't enact such a law, and nobody is even suggesting it. Why? By doing none of those things, are we "intending" the lives lost?

Do you believe governments should have a role in protecting the basic human rights of their citizens, as outlined in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights- things like the right to food, clean water, shelter, a basic education, and access to healthcare?

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Do you believe governments should have a role in protecting the basic human rights of their citizens, as outlined in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights- things like the right to food, clean water, shelter, a basic education, and access to healthcare?

Sure, Article 25, that's called a social safety net. IT doesn't mean everyone gets their food from the government, or that we don't have to pay for food, water and shelter. And the UN Declaration of Human Rights article 26 only suggests free education through elementary school, not college. We have unemployment insurance for unemployed people, welfare for poor people, free healthcare under Medicaid for the poor, subsidies for healthcare even for those that aren't poor, food stamps, section 8 housing subsidies, pell grants and other federal and state grants for education, free school k-12. So?

The government also has a role in protecting freedom of speech, assembly, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, the right to change one's religion, non-discrimination under the law, the right to work, security of persons, the right to participate in government, and the rest of the rights listed in the UN Declaration.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Let us remember that before the rise of Trump's isolationists, both republicans and democrats supported the meddling and independence of Ukraine. Even President Bush told Ukrainian American visitors to the White House that he might recognize Ukraine if it withdrew from the Soviet Union. The all that has changed, now most conservatives have a sympathetic view of Putin's invasions of Crimea and Ukraine, "...this crisis was triggered by the west's attempt to pull Ukraine decisively into its orbit..." "...Putin's absorption [Invasion] of Crimea and support for the rebellion in eastern Ukraine is clearly defensive..."

Also many conveniently forget or ignore that the, “Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine”. It's a decision Ukrainian's regret, "We gave away the capability for nothing,” Andriy Zahorodniuk, a former defense minister of Ukraine, said this month about his nation’s former nuclear weapons. “Now, every time somebody offers us to sign a strip of paper, the response is, ‘Thank you very much. We already had one of those some time ago.’”

Did anyone believe Ukraine posed a threat to Russia? I agree that Ukraine was going to eventually join NATO and in Putin's mind it might be unacceptable, but we don't always don't get what we want do we? Even dictators. Has a NATO country ever made an offensive move against a neighboring country? Russia currently has three democracies on its border, two of which are NATO members. If Putin overruns and pulls Ukraine into the Russian Federation, Russia will have six democracies and six NATO members on its border. That sounds like a much more volatile situation to me.

Supporting, promoting and defending democracies or, "meddling" as you would call it goes back to the founding to NATO and isn't an accomplishment that only the far left can take credit for. We didn't install a democracy in Ukraine regardless of what FOX might be claiming, So even though Putin reneged on his agreement and given that Ukraine has a right to exist as an independent democratic country, if we know that that is completely unacceptable to Putin, then the defense of Ukraine by the West is not morally (or legally) pure?...

You've quite astutely described the problem. And, I've not in the least absolved Republicans. The establishment democrats and republicans are part of the same machine. Yes, they are all pro-war, and they are all acting toward the same goal. Biden and Bush, Clinton, Obama, Cheney, McCain, Romney, they are all insiders and servants of the military industrial complex.

You've hit on exactly why Trump was persona non grata, and was marked for death (metaphorically, at least) by the establishment in both parties. He wasn't toeing the line. It wasn't beause he was a "threat to democracy" - that was all propaganda bullshit. It was because he didn't come up in the machine to where he could be trusted to employ the right people and continue the foreign policy that has been consistent through both parties for 30-50 years. He was pulling troops home, and closing bases. He started literally zero new wars. He was entering solid trade deals all over the world, and achieving results in middle east peace talks. The neocons hated Trump for the very reason you outline above that Republians do it too. Of course they do - in spades. Trump was the black sheep in that regard. They called Trump a warmonger and they said Trump could spark a nuclear war - yet he never came close - but, here we are, with the "adults in the room" again, right? On the verge of nuclear war with Russia. But Trump was the loose cannon. Trump's policies were reckless, they said. Yet, here we are. 2014, Russia invaded Crimea. 2022, Russia invades Ukraine. Russia heightens nuke readiness. And here we are, raising hundreds of millions of more dollars for foreign aid, and Biden has a great reason to give the military industrial complex another boost with a solid increase in spending on military budgets for 2022 - and they have a good portion of the population convinced that they are the peaceniks, and Trump was the warmonger. They are nothing if they aren't brilliant, that's for sure.

 

[Ren]

"What does Putin want? His aims go well beyond Ukraine. As the Atlantic’s Anne Applebaum summarizes: He “wants to put so much strain on Western and democratic institutions, especially the European Union and NATO, that they break up. He wants to keep dictators in power wherever he can, in Syria, Venezuela, and Iran. He wants to undermine America, to shrink American influence, to remove the power of the democracy rhetoric that so many people in his part of the world still associate with America. He wants America itself to fail.”

Trump’s foreign policy sought to do much of what Putin wants to achieve, including intimidating Ukraine by withholding vital defensive weapons. Trump, like his role model in Moscow, favored weakening NATO, elevating dictators (from China to Turkey to North Korea to Hungary to Russia), undermining democratic elections, demonizing the media (the best check against power-hungry politicians) and finding common ground with kleptocratic-style governments.

...Certainly, there is a disconnect on the right, with many Republicans in the Senate trying to find some way to blame President Biden for insufficient resolve in opposing Putin’s invasion scheme. (Republicans in disarray!) But just a couple of years ago, these Republicans were perfectly content supporting a president who extorted Ukraine to get dirt on Biden, tried to welcome Russia back into the Group of Seven, provided cover for Russian interference in the 2016 election and parroted Russian propaganda on Crimea. It takes quite a feat of contortion for these Republicans to remain defenders of Trump and deplore his successor for not doing enough to stand up to Putin."


Link

The only difference is, Putin attacks a foreign country, Trump attacks his own country's democratic institutions.

Putin doesn't like woke wankers.

 

[jnug]

Putin doesn't like woke wankers.

Woke is way down the line from things Putin does not like. Putin does not like free peoples deciding anything for themselves. That is one thing that is farther up the totem for Putin. Reduction of fossil fuel usage is another thing that is way closer to the top of the totem for Putin than woke. So all of you fossil fuel fans can line up with MONSTER Putin too because that is where you belong.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Woke is way down the line from things Putin does not like. Putin does not like free peoples deciding anything for themselves. That is one thing that is farther up the totem for Putin. Reduction of fossil fuel usage is another thing that is way closer to the top of the totem for Putin than woke. So all of you fossil fuel fans can line up with MONSTER Putin too because that is where you belong.

This is just a complete misunderstanding of what world leaders in general and Putin in particular care about. He's not concerned with what "free peoples decide." What he's concerned about is Russia's and his national interest. He is invading Ukraine because he sees Ukraine as central to Russian security, and he's not wrong. He's not right to invade, but he's not wrong that Ukraine is key to Russia's national interest. If Russia controls Ukraine, either directly or through a friendly Ukrainian regime, then they can avail themselves of Ukraine's resources and keep the western forces somewhat at bay (at least Ukraine won't be in NATO and there won't be western military forces in Ukraine).

The West - US/UK/NATO - knows that Ukraine is key to really sticking a fork in hemming Russia in, and they too are correct. If we can have missiles and other forces in Ukraine, minutes from Moscow, it is a massive threat to Russia, and it helps us keep economic dominance too, because of Ukraine's massive food production, access to urainium deposits, etc. We are correct in that, but that of course doesn't make our support for the 2014 Maidan coup correct or good.

Putin ****ed up, because he miscalculated about this invasion and now he will be a world monster, and Russia will never get back to any semblance of normalcy until Putin is dead and gone and someone else, who can "reset" Russia's international policy, is in power. Putin is now committed to this invasion and it's win or die. His only hope is to pacify Ukraine and hold it, until there is no more resistance, and that may never be possible.

He doesn't care about how "woke" the west is. He won't tolerate that bullshit in Russia, but he doesn't mind at all that the wokies are in other countries. He doesn't give a ****. He laughs at it, because it's a big joke.

 

[jnug]

This is just a complete misunderstanding of what world leaders in general and Putin in particular care about. He's not concerned with what "free peoples decide." What he's concerned about is Russia's and his national interest. He is invading Ukraine because he sees Ukraine as central to Russian security, and he's not wrong. He's not right to invade, but he's not wrong that Ukraine is key to Russia's national interest. If Russia controls Ukraine, either directly or through a friendly Ukrainian regime, then they can avail themselves of Ukraine's resources and keep the western forces somewhat at bay (at least Ukraine won't be in NATO and there won't be western military forces in Ukraine).

The West - US/UK/NATO - knows that Ukraine is key to really sticking a fork in hemming Russia in, and they too are correct. If we can have missiles and other forces in Ukraine, minutes from Moscow, it is a massive threat to Russia, and it helps us keep economic dominance too, because of Ukraine's massive food production, access to urainium deposits, etc. We are correct in that, but that of course doesn't make our support for the 2014 Maidan coup correct or good.

Putin ****ed up, because he miscalculated about this invasion and now he will be a world monster, and Russia will never get back to any semblance of normalcy until Putin is dead and gone and someone else, who can "reset" Russia's international policy, is in power. Putin is now committed to this invasion and it's win or die. His only hope is to pacify Ukraine and hold it, until there is no more resistance, and that may never be possible.

He doesn't care about how "woke" the west is. He won't tolerate that bullshit in Russia, but he doesn't mind at all that the wokies are in other countries. He doesn't give a ****. He laughs at it, because it's a big joke.

There are a whole bunch of things Putin thinks are key to Russia's national interest. Its all BULLSHIT:
- Putin has certainly laid to rest the idea that he is fighting to rescue the Donbas from Ukraine now hasn't he
- He is certainly not trying to denazify a country that is not a NAZI country anyway now is he
- He has no valid claims to the sovereign nation of Ukraine at all so why should we accept some tactical security framework for what he is doing over the same old shit for which any aggressor nation throughout history has started war.

He wants the territory and assets. The same old reasons that prompt most all aggressors to start wars. He wants the territory and the assets and he won't stop at Ukraine territory and assets. He will have to be stopped. NATO is not the reason either.

STOP trying to rationalize this mess....nothing has changed about wars and the reasons aggressors and aggressor nations start them....NOTHING

 

[Ren]

Woke is way down the line from things Putin does not like. Putin does not like free peoples deciding anything for themselves. That is one thing that is farther up the totem for Putin. Reduction of fossil fuel usage is another thing that is way closer to the top of the totem for Putin than woke. So all of you fossil fuel fans can line up with MONSTER Putin too because that is where you belong.

Woke is the elephant in the room. It's the gum in the gears; the wrench in the system.

Putin is no worse than the piece of shit occupying the WH presently.

 

[jnug]

Woke is the elephant in the room. It's the gum in the gears; the wrench in the system.

Putin is no worse than the piece of shit occupying the WH presently.

Yes of course...Biden is committing war crimes JUST LIKE PUTIN. He is denazifying countries that are not nazified in the first place, just like Putin. He is invading his neighbors, Just like Point. Don't make me laugh. Is that all ya' got?

 

[j brown's body]

This is just a complete misunderstanding of what world leaders in general and Putin in particular care about. He's not concerned with what "free peoples decide." What he's concerned about is Russia's and his national interest. He is invading Ukraine because he sees Ukraine as central to Russian security, and he's not wrong. He's not right to invade, but he's not wrong that Ukraine is key to Russia's national interest. If Russia controls Ukraine, either directly or through a friendly Ukrainian regime, then they can avail themselves of Ukraine's resources and keep the western forces somewhat at bay (at least Ukraine won't be in NATO and there won't be western military forces in Ukraine).

The West - US/UK/NATO - knows that Ukraine is key to really sticking a fork in hemming Russia in, and they too are correct. If we can have missiles and other forces in Ukraine, minutes from Moscow, it is a massive threat to Russia, and it helps us keep economic dominance too, because of Ukraine's massive food production, access to urainium deposits, etc. We are correct in that, but that of course doesn't make our support for the 2014 Maidan coup correct or good.

Putin ****ed up, because he miscalculated about this invasion and now he will be a world monster, and Russia will never get back to any semblance of normalcy until Putin is dead and gone and someone else, who can "reset" Russia's international policy, is in power. Putin is now committed to this invasion and it's win or die. His only hope is to pacify Ukraine and hold it, until there is no more resistance, and that may never be possible.

He doesn't care about how "woke" the west is. He won't tolerate that bullshit in Russia, but he doesn't mind at all that the wokies are in other countries. He doesn't give a ****. He laughs at it, because it's a big joke.

An independent and democratic Ukraine is no threat to Russia's security. It is as threat to Putin's personal power. This is how he and Trump think alike.

 

[Ren]

Yes of course...Biden is committing war crimes JUST LIKE PUTIN. He is denazifying countries that are not nazified in the first place, just like Putin. He is invading his neighbors, Just like Point. Don't make me laugh. Is that all ya' got?

That was more than enough for you.

Ukraine is a shithole and Putin is helping those who want out. It's as simple as that.

Now, let's talk about another war right here within our own borders. Can you guess what that might be? Of course you can't. That's why I have to tell you. It's a war that's actually AT our borders, and YOUR CHOICE for President is on the other side.

 

[jnug]

That was more than enough for you.

Ukraine is a shithole and Putin is helping those who want out. It's as simple as that.

Now, let's talk about another war right here within our own borders. Can you guess what that might be? Of course you can't. That's why I have to tell you. It's a war that's actually AT our borders, and YOUR CHOICE for President is on the other side.

You have no proof whatsoever that Putin is no worse than Biden. You have nothing to support that what Putin is doing in Ukraine is in any way righteous. YA" GOT NUTHIN' but a pack of lies atop a heaping scoop of ignorance.

 

[Ren]

You have no proof whatsoever that Putin is no worse than Biden. You have nothing to support that what Putin is doing in Ukraine is in any way righteous. YA" GOT NUTHIN' but a pack of lies.

Don't worry, jnug, the truth hurts, but it also sets you free.

 

[jnug]

Don't worry, jnug, the truth hurts, but it also sets you free.

That is not proof and you are not peddling truth. Try again? Or do you just want to blather more!

In fact, your posting style is quite familiar. Not much of a post count. Are you another poster ghosting under a new account?

 

[Grand Mal]

That was more than enough for you.

Ukraine is a shithole and Putin is helping those who want out. It's as simple as that.

Now, let's talk about another war right here within our own borders. Can you guess what that might be? Of course you can't. That's why I have to tell you. It's a war that's actually AT our borders, and YOUR CHOICE for President is on the other side.

Ukraine is a shithole?

 

[MrNiceGuy]

An independent and democratic Ukraine is no threat to Russia's security. It is as threat to Putin's personal power. This is how he and Trump think alike.

Ukraine would not be a threat if it is merely independent and democratic, without any other relevant qualities added to that mix. However, a Ukraine that is a member of NATO or the EU is a threat to Russia. A Ukraine in which western military, including but not limited to missiles, get placed is a threat to Russia. It's the same threat that would exist to the US if Mexico joined the CSTO, and started buddying up to Russia. Surely you can see that?