What does gun control want? [W:154, 358]

[Crimefree]

Serious question: what is the "ideal" legislation that gun control advocates want, their ultimate goal?
​

This is an interesting question that inevitable has firearm owners discussing what they are willing hand gun control on a plate without any thought to the value to crime fighting, the inconvenience and cost to firearm owners, the knowledge that gun control will give absolutely no guarantee it will cease.

Read the link in which the question is posed and see the responses.

Serious question: what is the "ideal" legislation that gun control advocates want, their ultimate goal? : PoliticalDiscussion

One has to ask what happened to firearm owners that they see sense in gun control for which they have no proof? Are firearm owners not supposed to be smarter than that?

1 Do firearm owners believe gun control can be appeased?
2 Is there any hope that gun control will cease prior to a complete ban (This is an ideal one for gun control advocates to answer)
3 Is there some mythical middle ground and what is it? (Preferably a response from gun control advocates) What are they prepared to give up?

I hope we get some illuminating answers and who knows maybe there is middle ground but unless we know some of the terms it will never be found.

 

[disneydude]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

Personally....I don't like guns at all. I would prefer to live in a society where there are ZERO guns. However...that said I don't think it is realistic and am willing to live with sensible gun restrictions. For instance, I don't think it is unreasonable to have a waiting period to purchase a gun (this serves to deter people who seek to purchase guns in a fit of rage). Proponents will argue that that this doesn't deter someone from killing with a knife or their bare hands, however, it is much easier and less personal to kill someone with a gun. I also don't think that requiring people to register their guns is unreasonable. Finally, I don't think restrictions on assault weapon/high capacity magazines/fully automatic weapons is unreasonable for obvious reasons.

 

[LagerHead]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

Personally....I don't like guns at all. I would prefer to live in a society where there are ZERO guns. However...that said I don't think it is realistic and am willing to live with sensible gun restrictions. For instance, I don't think it is unreasonable to have a waiting period to purchase a gun (this serves to deter people who seek to purchase guns in a fit of rage). Proponents will argue that that this doesn't deter someone from killing with a knife or their bare hands, however, it is much easier and less personal to kill someone with a gun. I also don't think that requiring people to register their guns is unreasonable. Finally, I don't think restrictions on assault weapon/high capacity magazines/fully automatic weapons is unreasonable for obvious reasons.

Do you have data that support your assumption that waiting periods work? Because a fit of rage would have to last an awfully long time for a waiting period to have any measurable effect.

Researchers looked at the Brady Act's five-day waiting period, which was in place 1994 through 1998, when it was eliminated by instantaneous background checks. Publishing in the Journal of the American Medical Association, they found the waiting periods to be "associated with reductions in the firearm suicide rate for persons aged 55 years or older but not with reductions in homicide rates or overall suicide rates."

Can you define what you mean by "assault weapon"? Is this a semiautomatic rifle with such deadly features as barrel shrouds? You know, the thing that prevents you from being forced to hold a hot barrel as it heats up from the expansion of gases caused by the explosion that just occurred inside it. Or how about a pistol grip? Because you know, you turn from a yokel in the backwoods into Chris Kyle when you add a pistol grip.

The reasons to which you allude that are "obvious" to you, are a complete mystery to me. Most of the people that I have met that assume these reasons are "obvious" know just about jack **** about guns. Are you the exception to this rule?

 

[MickeyW]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

Serious question: what is the "ideal" legislation that gun control advocates want, their ultimate goal?
​

This is an interesting question that inevitable has firearm owners discussing what they are willing hand gun control on a plate without any thought to the value to crime fighting, the inconvenience and cost to firearm owners, the knowledge that gun control will give absolutely no guarantee it will cease.

Read the link in which the question is posed and see the responses.

Serious question: what is the "ideal" legislation that gun control advocates want, their ultimate goal? : PoliticalDiscussion

One has to ask what happened to firearm owners that they see sense in gun control for which they have no proof? Are firearm owners not supposed to be smarter than that?

1 Do firearm owners believe gun control can be appeased?
2 Is there any hope that gun control will cease prior to a complete ban (This is an ideal one for gun control advocates to answer)
3 Is there some mythical middle ground and what is it? (Preferably a response from gun control advocates) What are they prepared to give up?

I hope we get some illuminating answers and who knows maybe there is middle ground but unless we know some of the terms it will never be found.

Their end goal is total confiscation from law abiding citizens. This of course will nudge all the criminals out there to give up guns, since society is now easy pickens! Read...easy targets aka victims in waiting.

Personally....I don't like guns at all. I would prefer to live in a society where there are ZERO guns. However...that said I don't think it is realistic and am willing to live with sensible gun restrictions. For instance, I don't think it is unreasonable to have a waiting period to purchase a gun (this serves to deter people who seek to purchase guns in a fit of rage). Proponents will argue that that this doesn't deter someone from killing with a knife or their bare hands, however, it is much easier and less personal to kill someone with a gun. I also don't think that requiring people to register their guns is unreasonable. Finally, I don't think restrictions on assault weapon/high capacity magazines/fully automatic weapons is unreasonable for obvious reasons.

As a child........I use to love to watch all the Walt Disney productions. When I grew up, referring to myself as a disneydude....would have been pretty silly. (Denotes Tinker Bell mentality)
As pointed out by you, you don't like guns........that would lead a logical person to believe you know nothing about them...and as pointed out by LH in post #3....you most likely don't know jack**** about them. Further logic on that premise, would denote ignorance and an inability to talk logically on the subject. Am I close?

Do you have data that support your assumption that waiting periods work? Because a fit of rage would have to last an awfully long time for a waiting period to have any measurable effect.

​

Can you define what you mean by "assault weapon"? Is this a semiautomatic rifle with such deadly features as barrel shrouds? You know, the thing that prevents you from being forced to hold a hot barrel as it heats up from the expansion of gases caused by the explosion that just occurred inside it. Or how about a pistol grip? Because you know, you turn from a yokel in the backwoods into Chris Kyle when you add a pistol grip.

The reasons to which you allude that are "obvious" to you, are a complete mystery to me. Most of the people that I have met that assume these reasons are "obvious" know just about jack **** about guns. Are you the exception to this rule?

That was my take.

 

[OrphanSlug]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

I hope we get some illuminating answers and who knows maybe there is middle ground but unless we know some of the terms it will never be found.

In this context, there is no "middle ground" in this fight. Gun control advocates covers a wide spectrum, everything from those that just want licenses and background checks up to and including those that look at the 2nd Amendment as a whole as a mistake. When you include trying to appease groups that look at private gun ownership as the problem then negotiation is a bit futile, at the end of the day there is still a group that wants no one to have a gun but the government. How do you find middle ground with that?

 

[MickeyW]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

As opposed to a disneydude...............I really, really, really enjoy all my guns. They are a great source of history, discipline, care of tools and achievement in use ..................and application of common sense.

None are registered, or ever will be, I have never used any of them in a malevolent act, never had an accidental discharge, never shot anyone by accident, raised all 5 of my children with them(they all learned to shoot by 6 or 7 years old).

I competed with them for just over 20 years and have taught over 6,000 civilians and hundreds of police officers the finer points of gun usage and marksmanship.
In short, I look at myself as a person who has done noble acts and empowered so many in society, to defend themselves, and not wait for so called police protection that often never comes in time.

I'm just guessing now, but I'd be willing to bet that disneydude cannot possibly comprehend this attitude....... or my achievements.

 

[MickeyW]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

In this context, there is no "middle ground" in this fight. Gun control advocates covers a wide spectrum, everything from those that just want licenses and background checks up to and including those that look at the 2nd Amendment as a whole as a mistake. When you include trying to appease groups that look at private gun ownership as the problem then negotiation is a bit futile, at the end of the day there is still a group that wants no one to have a gun but the government. How do you find middle ground with that?

You Don't....and never will. Spot on OS! :thumbs::thumbs:

 

[MickeyW]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

Some very good friends of mine, use to live in El Cajon, Calif. near San Diego.
California gun restrictions are abominable and ridiculous for law abiding citizens who get penalized for doing nothing with their guns, except to enjoy them.

The idiot politicians in that state, have deemed many firearms as illegal to own or possess.

That stupidity has prompted many gun owners, like my friends, to leave Calif. and move to Nevada, Az., Idaho or Oregon. Oregon is now under full assault against guns by the likes of Michael Bloomberg and Paul Allen, via the buying of politicians and elections. We as gun owners, are in trouble here.

Some of this crazy anti-gun behavior is out of ignorance...................and some stems from those who want total control over the lives of others.

 

[KevinKohler]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

I am opposed to weapons who's primary purpose is warfare. Explosives, for instance. Their use denotes collateral damage, and therefor can't be tolerated in a civil society. Incindiary rounds. Armor piercing rounds. Etc. Rounds large enough/powerful enough to punch through a cinder block.

For sport purposes, I think it's all fair, so long as there is a recognized and safe venue for it.

 

[flogger]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

That stupidity has prompted many gun owners, like my friends, to leave Calif. and move to Nevada, Az., Idaho or Oregon.

Quite frankly if guns are that important to your friend that he's prepared to uproot and go to another State in order to get to play with a particular kind he wants then its a shrink he needs more than anything else. This is akin to mental illness where guns have come to represent the core of a persons whole being :shock:

 

[KevinKohler]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

Quite frankly if guns are that important to your friend that he's prepared to uproot and go to another State in order to get to play with a particular kind he wants then its a shrink he needs more than anything else. This is akin to mental illness where guns have come to represent the core of a persons whole being :shock:

Eh, you're thinking of it from a perspective of a normal person.


This friend of his might be worth millions, and moving no big deal.

 

[flogger]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

Eh, you're thinking of it from a perspective of a normal person.
This friend of his might be worth millions, and moving no big deal.

Or maybe the padded cells are bigger in some states than in others

 

[MickeyW]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

I am opposed to weapons who's primary purpose is warfare. Explosives, for instance. Their use denotes collateral damage, and therefor can't be tolerated in a civil society. Incindiary rounds. Armor piercing rounds. Etc. Rounds large enough/powerful enough to punch through a cinder block.

For sport purposes, I think it's all fair, so long as there is a recognized and safe venue for it.

If a "law abiding citizen" wants to go out and shoot through a steel plate, or shoot incendiary rounds in the desert.....what's the harm? Who the **** cares?

You seem to suffer from the same problem as other libs....you can't separate the criminal nutjob gun owner, from a law abiding one who likes to experiment and have some fun! It can all be Sport Purposes! Seems you aren't very progressive after all. Very narrow minded and dictatorial it seems.

Quite frankly if guns are that important to your friend that he's prepared to uproot and go to another State in order to get to play with a particular kind he wants then its a shrink he needs more than anything else. This is akin to mental illness where guns have come to represent the core of a persons whole being :shock:

First of all, people move for many reasons and it's not for you or me to judge them.

Secondly, these friends of mine aren't alone....I know hundreds of people who have done the same thing. One is a Capitol police officer in Carson City Nevada. He told me that he was a cop in LA, decided he needed a change and moved to Nevada.
After living there for a few months, he found out that he could own lots of different guns, that were illegal to him, even as a cop in Ca. He said he was so delighted, that he started buying many of them...."a virtual candy store here in Nv." His words, not mine.

The mental illness applies to you I'd say......for thinking that way to begin with. Brits of today, denote mental illness to me and I would never, ever live there for any reason!

 

[disneydude]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

Do you have data that support your assumption that waiting periods work? Because a fit of rage would have to last an awfully long time for a waiting period to have any measurable effect.

​

Can you define what you mean by "assault weapon"? Is this a semiautomatic rifle with such deadly features as barrel shrouds? You know, the thing that prevents you from being forced to hold a hot barrel as it heats up from the expansion of gases caused by the explosion that just occurred inside it. Or how about a pistol grip? Because you know, you turn from a yokel in the backwoods into Chris Kyle when you add a pistol grip.

The reasons to which you allude that are "obvious" to you, are a complete mystery to me. Most of the people that I have met that assume these reasons are "obvious" know just about jack **** about guns. Are you the exception to this rule?

A couple of things...and let me begin by saying that my views of gun control have evolved quite a bit over the last couple of years based on a case I represented here in Los Angeles. I had a client charged with possession of assault weapons. My client was a very right-wing, pro second amendment, pro NRA guy - everything that I am not. I had a gun expert appointed on the case and went and met with him up at the Angeles Shooting range. He explained A LOT to me about guns. I'm still not very knowledgeable, but he changed my mind/views about several things including "Assault-style" weapons. I also dealt with attorneys who represent the NRA and they assisted me some....not a lot....but eventually I got the case dismissed.

One of the things that I learned during the course of my research on the case is that just because a gun looks scary, it doesn't mean that it is illegal. I got to examine and learn about how a number of weapons that look very threatening are really no more threatening than a standard hunting rifle or handgun.

That said...in answer to your questions, no I would not ban semi-automatic weapons or pistol grips.

Second - I'm sure there is a lot of research out there on waiting periods, but I am not going to spend the time looking for it. I think it is fairly common sense that if a person can't go right out and buy a gun, there will be a "cooling down" period where they would have time to reflect on their actions (if they were seeking to purchase the weapon to kill someone). I don't think that is a bad thing, and really....who needs to have a weapon immediately? Patience is a virtue.
Finally, when I said in the last part of my post that the reasons are obvious...I knew that someone would come back and say no it isn't, so I should have just laid it out, but I was being lazy.
High capacity magazines are more dangerous in that they allow more bullets to be fired without having to stop and reload. The ability to limit the number of bullets that people can fire in any given time decreases the likelihood that someone can commit a mass shooting. The same reason that bullet buttons help slow down the ability to reload.

 

[joG]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

Personally....I don't like guns at all. I would prefer to live in a society where there are ZERO guns. However...that said I don't think it is realistic and am willing to live with sensible gun restrictions. For instance, I don't think it is unreasonable to have a waiting period to purchase a gun (this serves to deter people who seek to purchase guns in a fit of rage). Proponents will argue that that this doesn't deter someone from killing with a knife or their bare hands, however, it is much easier and less personal to kill someone with a gun. I also don't think that requiring people to register their guns is unreasonable. Finally, I don't think restrictions on assault weapon/high capacity magazines/fully automatic weapons is unreasonable for obvious reasons.

While I may be persuaded on the waiting period to buy a gun, I do not think the other point possible. It must be especially assault guns that the constitution must mean, when it allows the citizens weapons. Those and Bowie Knives, of course.

 

[MickeyW]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

Eh, you're thinking of it from a perspective of a normal person.


This friend of his might be worth millions, and moving no big deal.

It was no big deal to him or his wife. They are both avid shooters and competitors all over the US. They retired in Ca. and no longer liked the idiotic political climate. There are thousands of gun owners who have left Calif. because of liberal hysteria....a mental illness in itself!

 

[KevinKohler]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

If a "law abiding citizen" wants to go out and shoot through a steel plate, or shoot incendiary rounds in the desert.....what's the harm? Who the **** cares?

You seem to suffer from the same problem as other libs....you can't separate the criminal nutjob gun owner, from a law abiding one who likes to experiment and have some fun! It can all be Sport Purposes! Seems you aren't very progressive after all. Very narrow minded and dictatorial it seems.

If it's legal to shoot in the dessert, it's legal to shoot at some gun range in the burbs. And yet, try to find a gun range that'll let you use AP rounds at them....?

You're thinking is very narrow, thinking ONLY of ONE demographic of people who would purchase and use these things. I'm not saying heater rounds, or armor piercing rounds, will be used by CRIMINALS to engage in CRIMINAL acts. I'm saying someone who doesn't have a clear understanding of what they're using will get hold of them, and start a damn BRUSH FIRE with them.

Not everyone lives in the dessert, bra. And we have to enforce our laws uniformly.

 

[MickeyW]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

Or maybe the padded cells are bigger in some states than in others

You have a very liberal mindset and assume that your attitude and way of living is superior. I submit that it sucks!

 

[disneydude]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

As a child........I use to love to watch all the Walt Disney productions. When I grew up, referring to myself as a disneydude....would have been pretty silly. (Denotes Tinker Bell mentality)As pointed out by you, you don't like guns........that would lead a logical person to believe you know nothing about them...and as pointed out by LH in post #3....you most likely don't know jack**** about them. Further logic on that premise, would denote ignorance and an inability to talk logically on the subject. Am I close?

Seems like all your post is was an excuse make a personal attack as evidenced by your comment on the screen name I chose (LOL...okie dokie....M -I-C....K-E-Y).That being said....I freely admit that I don't know a lot about guns. I don't like them and never will. However, my views on gun control have evolved over the years and while I still don't like them, I realized that some of my views were really more reactionary and not really based on safety measures. Which is why I am more open to some guns than I was. (see post #14 for more info)The problem that I see is that the gun nuts are just as bad as the anti-gun nuts. Instead of supporting reasonable regulations, they are so afraid that the big bad govment is coming after their guns that they oppose even the most common sense regulations.There is nothing unreasonable about waiting periods, registration and high capacity bans.

 

[disneydude]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

While I may be persuaded on the waiting period to buy a gun, I do not think the other point possible. It must be especially assault guns that the constitution must mean, when it allows the citizens weapons. Those and Bowie Knives, of course.

What about registration?

 

[MickeyW]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

A couple of things...and let me begin by saying that my views of gun control have evolved quite a bit over the last couple of years based on a case I represented here in Los Angeles. I had a client charged with possession of assault weapons. My client was a very right-wing, pro second amendment, pro NRA guy - everything that I am not. I had a gun expert appointed on the case and went and met with him up at the Angeles Shooting range. He explained A LOT to me about guns. I'm still not very knowledgeable, but he changed my mind/views about several things including "Assault-style" weapons. I also dealt with attorneys who represent the NRA and they assisted me some....not a lot....but eventually I got the case dismissed.

One of the things that I learned during the course of my research on the case is that just because a gun looks scary, it doesn't mean that it is illegal. I got to examine and learn about how a number of weapons that look very threatening are really no more threatening than a standard hunting rifle or handgun.

That said...in answer to your questions, no I would not ban semi-automatic weapons or pistol grips.

Second - I'm sure there is a lot of research out there on waiting periods, but I am not going to spend the time looking for it. I think it is fairly common sense that if a person can't go right out and buy a gun, there will be a "cooling down" period where they would have time to reflect on their actions (if they were seeking to purchase the weapon to kill someone). I don't think that is a bad thing, and really....who needs to have a weapon immediately? Patience is a virtue.
Finally, when I said in the last part of my post that the reasons are obvious...I knew that someone would come back and say no it isn't, so I should have just laid it out, but I was being lazy.
High capacity magazines are more dangerous in that they allow more bullets to be fired without having to stop and reload. The ability to limit the number of bullets that people can fire in any given time decreases the likelihood that someone can commit a mass shooting. The same reason that bullet buttons help slow down the ability to reload.

Thank you for explaining that....I for one appreciate the effort you made in defending your client. You did your job and I can never fault someone for going the extra mile to do that.
However, one thing that you are still confusing..............separation between a Good gun owner and a Bad gun owner.

For a bad guy, high capacity mags, and all that other stuff, should not be allowed....as a mater of fact that person shouldn't have guns period.
For a good guy...What Difference Does it Make?????

Before I moved out of Calif., I bought guns face to face, from friends, neighbors and strangers. I can still do that in Oregon............for awhile longer anyway. A cooling off period? That Does Not Apply to most gun buyers! So why should they be penalized by it? I say they should not!

I have been buying guns from private parties, with no government involvement or paperwork for 45 years now. I have committed no crimes or hurt anyone in a malicious fashion..........I see no problem with that?

Over 6,000 citizens of Calif. and Oregon have enjoyed, and benefited, from my firearms instruction for the last 40 years

 

[MickeyW]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

If it's legal to shoot in the dessert, it's legal to shoot at some gun range in the burbs. And yet, try to find a gun range that'll let you use AP rounds at them....?

You're thinking is very narrow, thinking ONLY of ONE demographic of people who would purchase and use these things. I'm not saying heater rounds, or armor piercing rounds, will be used by CRIMINALS to engage in CRIMINAL acts. I'm saying someone who doesn't have a clear understanding of what they're using will get hold of them, and start a damn BRUSH FIRE with them.

Not everyone lives in the dessert, bra. And we have to enforce our laws uniformly.

I can go out into the desert in at least 5 of the Western States and shoot to my hearts content.....with incendiary ammo.......and Do. I can go into the forest or dessert in Oregon and shoot AP......and do! All legal. If you are stuck using a gun range....that's too bad...I'm not!

No, not everyone lives in the desert....and people have to shoot accordingly. Here in the west, we have a thousands of square miles of open space.....desert, open rolling hills, open range and forests......and many of us reject gun ranges and just go out to BLM land........81% of Nevada is Govt. owned land, where you can legally shoot on much of it.....in Oregon a large percentage of it is govt. land.

I'm not alone in this thinking....there are tens of thousands of gun ownes in the western states who think just like me.......I'm in contact with many of those in various states.

 

[Manc Skipper]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

Gyn control doesn't want anything, people want it.

 

[MickeyW]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

Just two weeks ago I was in Sparks, Nv. visiting friends there. They have a beautiful home in a new subdivision.
My friends said let's go shoot in the morning. I said where? They said see that open land across the street? Yep. Right there about 100 yards from their front door with nothing behind it for miles. We set up targets at 25, 50 100, 300 and a 1,000 yards...shot most of the day, with every type of ammo you can think of....and lots of it.....about 900 rounds altogether....I got a little sunburned.

That is FREEDOM folks.....I'm not bragging, just stating the facts....................freedom to own and shoot what you want, when you want and where you want......a foreign concept to east coasters.

 

[MickeyW]

re: What does gun control want? [W:154]

Seems like all your post is was an excuse make a personal attack as evidenced by your comment on the screen name I chose (LOL...okie dokie....M -I-C....K-E-Y).That being said....I freely admit that I don't know a lot about guns. I don't like them and never will. However, my views on gun control have evolved over the years and while I still don't like them, I realized that some of my views were really more reactionary and not really based on safety measures. Which is why I am more open to some guns than I was. (see post #14 for more info)The problem that I see is that the gun nuts are just as bad as the anti-gun nuts. Instead of supporting reasonable regulations, they are so afraid that the big bad govment is coming after their guns that they oppose even the most common sense regulations.There is nothing unreasonable about waiting periods, registration and high capacity bans.

There is nothing good about govt. regulations...it's all about Control Over Our Lives.....and I've never liked that idea. See my comment below. The more government is up our ass, the less freedoms we have. I will not relinquish my freedoms to an over zealous government.
We have no sales tax in Oregon...we all like it that way....because we all know that once the govt. creates another way to control your lives....they will increase that control little by little...like a frog cooking slowly in a pot of water, with the temp. going up ever so slowly...when the frog realizes he's in trouble...it's too late.
The government for the most part, local, state or Federal...is not our friend!
We have hundreds of gun laws on the books already and I submit we don't need anymore.

Just so you know, that name came from my Great Grandfather, who predated Mickey Mouse.

What about registration?

That's just as insane as any other liberal wet stuff. Registration leads to confiscation.....check your history books.....if you can find those that haven't been altered by liberal/progressive/Commies..