What do you think of the War of Northern Attrition?

[NatMorton]

The “so what” is the North’s lack of action to ban slavery even on a state level, except for Vermont, indicates that the politicians didn’t care that much about the practice, except to use it as a club to weaken the South. That’s a part of history worth remembering.

I agree, but it's not a part of history that is relevant to the statement I made.

 

[bomberfox]

Without govt there is no sch thing as rights
I would ask you what else can give rights other than Govts but so far all you have said is desire and ability makes rights

Without governments there would not be private property rights like we have today.

 

[Quag]

Without governments there would not be private property rights like we have today.

There wouldnt be any rights

 

[vegas giants]

The first attack was not on Northern soil, but on a Northern stronghold in Southern territory. The South Carolina ordered the fort to surrender and Lincoln defied the order, resulting in the attack.

The south fired first. If they wanted a peaceful secession they could have negotiated. They didnt....the south wanted war so they attacked

 

[bomberfox]

That's an ignorant and asanine statement.

Historians themselves still debate to this day over the reason for individual states succession.

Nope. They dont because the confederates before and during the war knew exactly what they were fighting for. A nation built upon the cornerstone of white supremacy.
Their constitution actually forbade the abolition of slavery and Jefferson Davis said that the confederate states would not give up the institution even if an amendment to the constitution was made. They were willing to tear up the constitution if that is what it took.
The KKK shows us what the confederacy was all about. It was only after the war they blamed a tariff they had the power to block if they had remained in the union.

 

[bomberfox]

So by your determination the "violent, white supremacist repression" ended in 1965.

Why put it in quotes? That actually happened.

 

[bomberfox]

It’s only betrayal if the Southern states have no right to secede. So far no one here has been able to cite any section of the Constitution that explicitly forbids secession. If you’re going to give it a try, rotsa ruck.

They had no right to commandeer federal forts either, nor attack federal forts. Why do you cling to defending the confederacy? Do you think that is the best the southern states are capable of? Clinging to a dead white supremacist regime?

 

[bomberfox]

A 'Union' in which any state could just willy-nilly opt out of because it in particular doesn't agree with a Constitutionally passed law or act, voted upon and passed by a majority of the states, is not really a 'Union' at all. That would be much more akin to being anarchy.

Health insurance has a finite expiration period or termination conditions written into it. The Constitution does not. No one here besides yourself is pretending that the Constitution makes any direct reference to secession from the union that it was created to further strengthen and cement. But we have already explained why there is no logical reason for why it would or should.

It would be akin to the articles of confederacy.

 

[bomberfox]

I H

I know full well the Union’s motivations for forcing compliance. But did they have legal justification for doing so? The Articles of Confederation spoke of “perpetual union,” but the Constitution wholly replaced the Articles. For that reason the Constitution cannot be said to enforce a perpetual union unless this is explicitly spelled out.

The union’s motivations have nothing to do with the motivations of the confederacy.

 

[bomberfox]

The left loves to talk about the past of African Americans so they don't have to talk about the future of African Americans.

The democrat party sold thier future, them traded them in for the new Hispanic supermajority soon to be here.

They'll do anything to avoid talking to the black communities about that.

We talk with black communities about the future all the time, including protecting their vote. Unlike you i’ve actually been out there in solidarity.

 

[bomberfox]

So they objected to tariffs just for the hell of it?

Tariffs that they had the power to block?

 

[bomberfox]

Really?

Where have you heard the left criticism of the Romans for slavery? Or even the Chinese?

And where is anyone on the right notably praising the history of American slavers?

Which party continually flies rebel flags?

 

[bomberfox]

Ok **** it. Im gonna get specific here cause southern states need to finally face the music so they can find heritage actually worth clinging on to instead of this demented slaver regime. Every rebel flag should be burned because there was no confederate soldier that fought for liberation as the confederacy was a pure reactionary state built to preserve tyrannical hierarchies. Southerners have been lying to themselves and have been lied to for over a century.

Its the same “states rights” horseshit George Wallace was braying about when he wanted to fight the federal government sending in troops to enforce desegregation.

 

[Hughinn]

We talk with black communities about the future all the time, including protecting their vote. Unlike you i’ve actually been out there in solidarity.

Except, Democrats haven't done anything for the black communities except harvest votes by promising things they never delivered

 

[Hughinn]

Which party continually flies rebel flags?

People still fly Celtic flags and old Roman empire flags.

So what?

 

[Hughinn]

Ok **** it. Im gonna get specific here cause southern states need to finally face the music so they can find heritage actually worth clinging on to instead of this demented slaver regime. Southerners have been lying to themselves and have been lied to for over a century.

You're not from the south obviously. And likely never been.

 

[Deuce]

You're not from the south obviously. And likely never been.

Confederate flags reappeared specifically in response to the civil rights movement. Confederate monuments weren't built for "celebrating heritage." They were built to remind black people of their place.

Or was "this is a monument to the supremacy of the white man" on a statue of Robert E. Lee not explicit enough for you?

 

[Ouroboros]

The opening stanza in the Constitution states it was created "in order to form a more perfect Union" of the "perpetual Union" the Articles of Confederation had created. Do you think they were talking some other "Union"? Come on now, let's stop with the silliness.

The war might have been avoided had the framers of the Constitution specified the conditions absolutely one way or the other. Nothing silly about the need for all parties to a contract to get things spelled out.

 

[jonny5]

By what authority did South Carolina have to order a federal government fort to surrender? The resupplying of that fort was not an act aggression, Attacking those supply ships and the fort was.

Its their property. Clearly land within their borders. No different than if there was a foreign countries base somewhere on land. And they first tried to get it back peacefully. It wasnt until the US sent troops to reinforce it that SC attacked.

"Jefferson Davis, who, like Stephens, wrote his account after the Civil War, took a similar position. Fort Sumter was rightfully South Carolina's property after secession, and the Confederate government had shown great "forbearance" in trying to reach an equitable settlement with the federal government. But the Lincoln administration destroyed these efforts by sending "a hostile fleet" to Sumter. "The attempt to represent us as the aggressors," Davis argued, "is as unfounded as the complaint made by the wolf against the lamb in the familiar fable. He who makes the assault is not necessarily he that strikes the first blow or fires the first gun."

 

[Ouroboros]

Here is a compilation of the seceding states petitions for secession. Go ahead, read them all, you won't find a single reference to tariffs in any of them. You will see that all cite the North's hostility to the institution of slavery the right to expand it and by the denial of their right to take their property (slaves) wherever they may go, and the failure of Northern states to promptly return their escaped 'property' as required by the Constitution.

The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States

The Declaration of Causes made by Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, and Texas.

www.battlefields.org

This point has already been answered numerous times, so read the rebuttals or don’t. I will add that even if slavery were the sole motivation, that would still be an economic motivation, not a “because the Red Skull loves evil in itself” motivation.

 

[Ouroboros]

By what authority did South Carolina have to order a federal government fort to surrender? The resupplying of that fort was not an act aggression, Attacking those supply ships and the fort was.

If the governor of a different nation tells your nation to get out, you get out.

 

[Ouroboros]

I agree, but it's not a part of history that is relevant to the statement I made.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Ouroboros]

The south fired first. If they wanted a peaceful secession they could have negotiated. They didnt....the south wanted war so they attacked

Already refuted.

 

[Ouroboros]

Nope. They dont because the confederates before and during the war knew exactly what they were fighting for. A nation built upon the cornerstone of white supremacy.
Their constitution actually forbade the abolition of slavery and Jefferson Davis said that the confederate states would not give up the institution even if an amendment to the constitution was made. They were willing to tear up the constitution if that is what it took.
The KKK shows us what the confederacy was all about. It was only after the war they blamed a tariff they had the power to block if they had remained in the union.

Why do you think the Southern congressmen could not have also blocked attempts to abolish slavery? Remember that the practice wasn’t completely illegal in any Northern state save Vermont.

 

[Indydave]

the sad thing about all of this is we as a nation, for all the good we have done nationally (abolishing slavery primarily) and globally, we are still cursed with racism and our need for white supremacy......a large portion of Caucasian people in the US and around the world simply believe that people of color are inferior......millions to the degree that it is ordained from God......

here we are 150 years after the Civil War still discussing the CW.......millions still arguing that it was about 'northern aggression/attrition' and 'states rights' and imo every dam one of those millions knows in their heart that it is about racism and white supremacy.......some of them (KKK, American Nazis, Oath Keepers etc etc) will actually say it up front that they believe people of color are inferior.....but sadly those millions of white Americans who tolerate and turn a deaf ear to the actions of WS's are silently condoning and approving them......