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What behaviors should constitute placement on a terrorist watch list?

Μολὼν λαβέ

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Much discussion has occurred recently about placing terrorism suspects on a watch list and depriving them of at lease one civil right without due process of law, which is to purchase a firearm.

Below are incidents that caused suspicion of the murderer yet none were reported until after the terrorism was committed. There are other incidents as well as this is not an exhaustive list. Should incidents like these place someone on a terrorist "watch list" until the individual can be thoroughly "vetted" by the FBI or whomever completes a thorough investigation?

What's the criteria for being on a watch list? Who determines the criteria?

Emloyees at a Florida gun shop declined to sell Orlando nightclub terrorist Omar Mateen bulk ammunition last month after seeing him engage in suspicious behavior, according to a published report.

Staff at Lotus Gunworks of South Florida, located in Jensen Beach near Mateen's home, told The Wall Street Journal that Mateen had also asked for heavy-duty body armor of a type typically used by law enforcement. The store does not sell body armor.

Robbie Abell, the store's co-owner, said that Mateen spoke on the phone in a Middle Eastern-sounding language and was repeatedly texting on his phone.

"[He] just seemed very odd,” Abell told the Journal. “The questions he was asking were not the normal questions a normal person would be asking."

Employees eventually turned Mateen away.

"If something is suspicious, it’s our discretion,” Abell said. “We are the gatekeeper."

The Journal also reported that Mateen had been kicked out of a training academy for would-be corrections officers in 2007 after he allegedly threatened to bring a gun onto the academy's campus.

One former cadet said Mateen referenced the 2007 shooting rampage at Virginia Tech, in which 32 people were killed, and said "something like that could happen here in the academy class."

Another former classmate told the Journal Mateen threatened to shoot his classmates after his hamburger touched pork at an academy cookout. That classmate, Susanne Coburn Laforest, said Mateen "flipped out", told people not to laugh at him, and said "he was going to come back and shoot us."

However, representatives of the school and the local sheriff's office said they had no record of any disciplinary actions involving Mateen.

Orlando terrorist reportedly raised suspicion at gun shop weeks before massacre | Fox News
 

TobyOne

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Keith Olbermann just because he's a douche nozzle.
 

TheDemSocialist

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Μολὼν λαβέ;1065974107 said:
Much discussion has occurred recently about placing terrorism suspects on a watch list and depriving them of at lease one civil right without due process of law, which is to purchase a firearm.

Below are incidents that caused suspicion of the murderer yet none were reported until after the terrorism was committed. There are other incidents as well as this is not an exhaustive list. Should incidents like these place someone on a terrorist "watch list" until the individual can be thoroughly "vetted" by the FBI or whomever completes a thorough investigation?

What's the criteria for being on a watch list? Who determines the criteria?







Orlando terrorist reportedly raised suspicion at gun shop weeks before massacre | Fox News

Kill them and their families!!!!!
 

Captain Adverse

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The should be no such thing as a "terrorism watch list."

Homeland Security should maintain an information database where all reports of suspicious activity can be compiled. This would be a general database with no identification until enough bits come together to indicate a possible threat.

Once enough hits lead to a high degree of probability, this information should pop up an alert and after evaluation shows a true-bill of concern, lead to a court ordered surveillance of the suspect.

(NOTE: This is in addition to the normal practice of investigating valid links to terrorist organizations from informants and other intel sources).

Unless and until this occurs, there is no reason to place anyone on a list.

As for all that after-the-fact "memory" of various informants cited by the article?

1. A Middle Eastern customer speaking his middle-eastern language over the phone is no signal of terror, it's a customer speaking a language to someone else (friend or family) who also speaks that language.

2. Buying bulk ammunition is not unusual. We have several members of this Forum who do so for practice, and training. One can burn up a lot of ammo on a range week to week.

3. I might be interested in body armor. Many preppers I know certainly are, and they aren't thinking of acting like a terrorist.

4. Acting "oddly?" Exactly what does that mean????

5. The "classmates" are making unsubstantiated allegations after the fact, perhaps to get their names in the paper? Article states there was no evidence of disciplinary action to support those allegations.
 
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azgreg

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Flying a plane into a tall building should be a qualifier.
 

mak2

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Blowing your nose in a restaurant while I am trying to eat.
 

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Blowing your nose in a restaurant while I am trying to eat.

How about watching me while I eat.

There should be a separate and public no gun (purchase) list maintained by the courts with due process.
 

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How about watching me while I eat.

There should be a separate and public no gun (purchase) list maintained by the courts with due process.
I like this idea.

Public, through the courts, with full due process.

You might be on to something here.
 

Captain Adverse

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There should be a separate and public no gun (purchase) list maintained by the courts with due process.

I like this idea.

Public, through the courts, with full due process.

You might be on to something here.

I disagree gentleman.

In the first place, a public list creates a stigma that can never be removed even if one somehow manages via appeal to be taken off the list.

Moreover, a public list serves no function except to excite public interest.

Finally, a public list simply alerts a true terrorist that he needs to go underground and then act fast or fear arrest before he can act.
 

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I disagree gentleman.

In the first place, a public list creates a stigma that can never be removed even if one somehow manages via appeal to be taken off the list.

Moreover, a public list serves no function except to excite public interest.

Finally, a public list simply alerts a true terrorist that he needs to go underground and then act fast or fear arrest before he can act.

Stigma that you were guilty of terroristic threatening?

Serves the purpose of keeping guns out of hands.

True terrorists can (then) do what they want except legally buy a gun.

Terrorist will be alerted when the FBI interview them as they press due process.
 

Captain Adverse

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1. Stigma that you were guilty of terroristic threatening?

2. Serves the purpose of keeping guns out of hands.

3. True terrorists can (then) do what they want except legally buy a gun.

4. Terrorist will be alerted when the FBI interview them as they press due process.

Ummm....NO!

1. Stigma that you are a terrorist, when in fact you are not.

2. Does not keep guns out of anyone's hands unless they try to buy them from a licensed dealer.

3. See #2.

4. No need for a list if you are already arrested.

Posting a public list simply alerts the citizen that he is under suspicion.

If the citizen is NOT a real terrorist, then being subject to an indelible and unfairly placed Scarlet Letter is wrong.

If the citizen IS a real terrorist, then he will go underground and either flee or act out on any target of opportunity.

A public list has no value.

Just a reminder: I don't believe there should be any list at ALL. See post #4.
 
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azgreg

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I like this idea.

Public, through the courts, with full due process.

You might be on to something here.

Exactly. Any list that is almost impossible to determine how you got on it in the first place much less how to get off of it is asinine at best.
 

TobyOne

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Ummm....NO!

1. Stigma that you are a terrorist, when in fact you are not.

2. Does not keep guns out of anyone's hands unless they try to buy them from a licensed dealer.

3. See #2.

4. No need for a list if you are already arrested.

Posting a public list simply alerts the citizen that he is under suspicion.

If the citizen is NOT a real terrorist, then being subject to an indelible and unfairly placed Scarlet Letter is wrong.

If the citizen IS a real terrorist, then he will go underground and either flee or act out on any target of opportunity.

A public list has no value.

This is not a terrorist list although all terrorists should be on it.

Those with mental health issues will also be on this list.

If several people report to the police that you made threatening statements and the courts decide that they aren't conspiring against you then you will be on it.

If I as a terrorist cannot buy a gun then someone will have to break the law to supply me. At least I won't be picking up a nice new AR-15 with several nice clips of ammo from my local Walmart when I'm feeling particularly irritated.

Being on the list won't be much stigma because so many people will be on it.

If you find this yourself have a neighbor pick up a rifle and some ammo and store it for you and if the need to defend ourselves ever arises you'll have yours.
 

Captain Adverse

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1. This is not a terrorist list although all terrorists should be on it.

2. Those with mental health issues will also be on this list.

3. If several people report to the police that you made threatening statements and the courts decide that they aren't conspiring against you then you will be on it.

4. If I as a terrorist cannot buy a gun then someone will have to break the law to supply me. At least I won't be picking up a nice new AR-15 with several nice clips of ammo from my local Walmart when I'm feeling particularly irritated.

5. Being on the list won't be much stigma because so many people will be on it.

If you find this yourself have a neighbor pick up a rifle and some ammo and store it for you and if the need to defend ourselves ever arises you'll have yours.

Are you kidding me? Lets try again:

1. It is a "TERRORIST" watch list, not an "anyone we think is weird" list.

2. See #1.

3. Either there is a criminal charge involved, or there is no case. A threat falls under the crime of Assault, and if convicted carries criminal penalties. A "terrorist" threat requires investigation to see if, in fact, there is any basis. If so, legal action is also taken. If guilty one goes to prison. If not, he should suffer no further indignities or penalties.

4. You make no point. You have no idea what is available in the underground or open market. Nor how easy or hard it is to buy anything in it.

5. That's like saying being a registered sex offender carries no stigma because lots of people are registered. :doh

A public list has no value, period.
 

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Are you kidding me? Lets try again:

1. It is a "TERRORIST" watch list, not an "anyone we think is weird" list.

2. See #1.

3. Either there is a criminal charge involved, or there is no case. A threat falls under the crime of Assault, and if convicted carries criminal penalties. A "terrorist" threat requires investigation to see if, in fact, there is any basis. If so, legal action is also taken. If guilty one goes to prison. If not, he should suffer no further indignities or penalties.

4. You make no point. You have no idea what is available in the underground or open market. Nor how easy or hard it is to buy anything in it.

5. That's like saying being a registered sex offender carries no stigma because lots of people are registered. :doh

A public list has no value, period.

5. I'm kidding.

I want law enforcement and intelligence to access the list like they would a search warrant.
 

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5. I'm kidding.

I want law enforcement and intelligence to access the list like they would a search warrant.

There...should...be...no...list.

Not unless it is like the FBI's Most Wanted. Known terrorists already identified as suspects in a crime and are fugitives from justice. That should be VERY public.

Homeland Security should be obtaining surveillance warrants to monitor those they have sufficient evidence to believe are likely terrorists. Arrest warrants for those they have enough evidence to charge.

Meanwhile, there should be no lists preventing citizens from the free exercise of all their rights.
 

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There...should...be...no...list.

Not unless it is like the FBI's Most Wanted. Known terrorists already identified as suspects in a crime and are fugitives from justice. That should be VERY public.

Homeland Security should be obtaining surveillance warrants to monitor those they have sufficient evidence to believe are likely terrorists. Arrest warrants for those they have enough evidence to charge.

Meanwhile, there should be no lists preventing citizens from the free exercise of all their rights.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, I think there should be a list.

I have to admit that I'm not delusional about the Constitution. Like any Religious document you should know what it is and what it isn't. I question my Bible, my Koran, my "I AM" teachings and my Vedic input from the Hare Krishnas.

I think if my government doesn't want me to buy a gun for any reason that is fine just as long as there are others who can hold the fort.
 

BitterPill

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I miss Keith. I got to like him after Fox 'News' went all in for war in Iraq, couldn't watch that garbage and still don't.
 

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Every now and then the Grabbers reveal their true intention.

Thanks for clarifying.

Notice no one is taking away anyone's guns (with this list.) If you find yourself on the list you can still go to the range and hunt although I will dole out your ammo to you there.
 

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I think we'll have to agree to disagree, I think there should be a list.

I have to admit that I'm not delusional about the Constitution. Like any Religious document you should know what it is and what it isn't. I question my Bible, my Koran, my "I AM" teachings and my Vedic input from the Hare Krishnas.

I think if my government doesn't want me to buy a gun for any reason that is fine just as long as there are others who can hold the fort.

Guess what?

The right to keep and bear arms is not a requirement.

If you choose not to (like I currently do), that is YOUR choice.

Claiming that government has the final say in whether or not someone does? Violates that Constitutional protection which now applies to all levels not just the Federal.

Lists are used by governments to control the population, by dividing us from each other. Those not on the list are okay, those that are; are okay to hate. To be gathered up and segregated. Placed in concentration camps. Exterminated.

All okay because...well, they WERE on that list, right?
 

Hawkeye10

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I disagree gentleman.

In the first place, a public list creates a stigma that can never be removed even if one somehow manages via appeal to be taken off the list.

Moreover, a public list serves no function except to excite public interest.

Finally, a public list simply alerts a true terrorist that he needs to go underground and then act fast or fear arrest before he can act.

Ditto for sexual offender registries, there was never any evidence that they do any good when we started them, and there still is about zero. In reality these lists are about retribution, making lives suck because we dont like them but cant use laws to do anything about it since there is a demand to at least give the laws the appearance of being about justice rather than retribution.
 
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