West Point moves to vanquish Confederate symbols from campus

[ALiberalModerate]

once again you choose to censor history because you dont like the cause.

By the argument, since there are no monuments to Nazi heroes in Germany, history is. being censored.

 

[anatta]

There has to come a time when the symbols of race-hate are not out in the public.

If they are in a museum, as has always been the plan, the remaining racists who want to see them are free to go to those museums.

Mississippi finally removed the traitor flag from its state flag. It no longer flies on state property in most states either.

an official flag is one thing, removing relevant portraits is a choice to suppress history.
I already gave you the idea of shadowbanning -putting historical artifacts and monuments in a dusty old storage place
is the same

 

[anatta]

By the argument, since there are no monuments to Nazi heroes in Germany, history is. being censored.

Germany can do what it wants to. NAZism was less then a hundred years ago, and the state didnt want neo Nazi's
to be able to use their symbols to organize contemporaneously
Who in the USA is talking about reviving the Confederacy? like nobody but a few nut cases

 

[EMNofSeattle]

No I very clearly stated that having slavery as the core of their national identity made them one of the most evil nations in the world.

And you cannot support this position other than “south bad”. It’s not a logical position

The US did not have slavery at the core of its national identity.

So what? Assuming that is unambiguously true they still accepted it even without the majority of slave states voting in the senate

Why do you fight so hard to defend authoritarian slavers who would have denounced you for “Roman popery”?

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Germany can do what it wants to. NAZism was less then a hundred years ago, and the state didnt want neo Nazi's
to be able to use their symbols to organize contemporaneously
Who in the USA is talking about reviving the Confederacy? like nobody but a few nut cases

That is not why Germany doesn't have monuments to Nazi heroes. They don't have monuments to Nazi heroes because those monuments would represent the cause of the Nazis, which was an evil cause. That is the same reason why we should not have monuments to Confederate heroes. Their cause was an evil one, we should not honor evil causes. Confederate symbols and monuments belong in museums where they can be put into their proper historical context, not honored in the public square.

 

[Scrabaholic]

From AP News:

Should not have taken until 2022 for this to happen. Never should have been allowed in the first place. What country honours it enemies at its most prestigious military academy?

I should get my man's perspective on this - he's a graduate of West Point.

 

[Questerr]

And you cannot support this position other than “south bad”. It’s not a logical position


So what? Assuming that is unambiguously true they still accepted it even without the majority of slave states voting in the senate

The United States did not “accept” slavery. You know that bearing false witness is one of those deadly sins your church opposes, right?

 

[ColdHardTruth]

an official flag is one thing, removing relevant portraits is a choice to suppress history.
I already gave you the idea of shadowbanning -putting historical artifacts and monuments in a dusty old storage place
is the same

Nobody is suppressing history.

Removing the portraits of traitors, several of who were responsible for creating the KKK, is appropriate. Race-hate does not belong in our military academies.

Putting those monuments in a working museum is not the same. It leaves them where they can be seen, but allows for the hate to be removed from military academies and other institutions.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

The United States did not “accept” slavery.

Yes, they did. No laws were passed banning slavery or mandating manumission of enslaved persons by the US during the civil war.

You know that bearing false witness is one of those deadly sins your church opposes, right?

Don’t be silly

 

[j brown's body]

And you cannot support this position other than “south bad”. It’s not a logical position


So what? Assuming that is unambiguously true they still accepted it even without the majority of slave states voting in the senate

Well, there wasn't much to crow about:

Hinton Rowan Helpers' ...1857 book, “The Impending Crisis of the South,” argued that chattel slavery had deformed the Southern economy and impoverished the region. Members of the plantation class refused to invest in education, in enterprise, in the community at large, because they didn’t have to. Helper’s concern wasn’t the enslaved Black people brutalized by what he called the “lords of the lash”; he was worried about the white laborers in the South, relegated by the slave economy and its ruling oligarchs to a “cesspool of ignorance and degradation.”

Link

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Well, there wasn't much to crow about:

Hinton Rowan Helpers' ...1857 book, “The Impending Crisis of the South,” argued that chattel slavery had deformed the Southern economy and impoverished the region. Members of the plantation class refused to invest in education, in enterprise, in the community at large, because they didn’t have to. Helper’s concern wasn’t the enslaved Black people brutalized by what he called the “lords of the lash”; he was worried about the white laborers in the South, relegated by the slave economy and its ruling oligarchs to a “cesspool of ignorance and degradation.”

Link

That same paragraph can be written about any country in Latin America, would you desribe Mexico as one of the most evil countries that ever existed?

 

[Logician Man]

That same paragraph can be written about any country in Latin America, would you desribe Mexico as one of the most evil countries that ever existed?

Deflection/strawman argument alert for @EMNofSeattle trying ( and failing ) to shift the focus away from the 'United States of America's' history of slavery.

 

[yankintx]

Germany can do what it wants to. NAZism was less then a hundred years ago, and the state didnt want neo Nazi's
to be able to use their symbols to organize contemporaneously
Who in the USA is talking about reviving the Confederacy? like nobody but a few nut cases

The Confederacy and the Third Reich fought to keep others enslaved.

Is that Southern Heritage to be proud of

It's shameful

 

[yankintx]

Nobody is suppressing history.

Removing the portraits of traitors, several of who were responsible for creating the KKK, is appropriate. Race-hate does not belong in our military academies.

Putting those monuments in a working museum is not the same. It leaves them where they can be seen, but allows for the hate to be removed from military academies and other institutions.

Exactly

The German Army Officers School does not contain statues of Kietel or Rommel.

 

[Jezcoe]

Well, there wasn't much to crow about:

Hinton Rowan Helpers' ...1857 book, “The Impending Crisis of the South,” argued that chattel slavery had deformed the Southern economy and impoverished the region. Members of the plantation class refused to invest in education, in enterprise, in the community at large, because they didn’t have to. Helper’s concern wasn’t the enslaved Black people brutalized by what he called the “lords of the lash”; he was worried about the white laborers in the South, relegated by the slave economy and its ruling oligarchs to a “cesspool of ignorance and degradation.”

Link

The rich not investing in the common man… where have I heard that before.

 

[Questerr]

Yes, they did. No laws were passed banning slavery or mandating manumission of enslaved persons by the US during the civil war.

Don’t be silly

Because such laws already existed in 90% of the US. Why would they need to pass new laws?

 

[eman623]

I wonder how you "vanquish" a symbol. Do you have to do battle with a statue or something?

Symbols represent ideas which cannot be killed.

Getting rid of the symbol doesn't get rid of the idea behind it. It goes on just as before.

 

[Tigerace117]

That is not the discussion here. The poster made an argument claiming the confederacy was “one of the most evil regimes in history” meaning I guess ranking with the Third Reich and the Aztecs and Mao’s China for how bad they were, and solely because of the slavery, if they is true the United States at the exact same time period was also such because chattel slavery was legal in the US

The Confederacy, unlike the US, explicitly went to war to preserve slavery. Protecting, defending and expanding the institution of slavery was the CSA’s reason for existing.

That is utterly vile

 

[EMNofSeattle]

The Confederacy, unlike the US, explicitly went to war to preserve slavery.

Ok, so what?

Protecting, defending and expanding the institution of slavery was the CSA’s reason for existing.

Ok, again, so what?

That is utterly vile

In the context of the time it really wasn’t, slavery was so uncontroversial that the North made no effort to abolish it until after the war.

 

[Tigerace117]

Ok, so what?

Ok, again, so what?

In the context of the time it really wasn’t, slavery was so uncontroversial that the North made no effort to abolish it until after the war.

You not giving a shit about basic morality, while hardly surprising to anyone whose ever read even one of your posts, doesn’t change the fact that committing treason to try and save slavery is vile.

Not a single country on the face of the planet recognized the CSA. Even at the time going to war to save slavery was seen as evil.

 

[Galactic Spin]

So am I seeing this right? People are still trying to say it wasn't because of slavery? Sad.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

You not giving a shit about basic morality, while hardly surprising to anyone whose ever read even one of your posts,

Blah blah blah

doesn’t change the fact that committing treason

They didn’t commit treason

to try and save slavery is vile.

By modern standards maybe, certainly not by existing standards of the time, especially given the side which you claim is unambiguously moral kept slavery legal throughout the war

Not a single country on the face of the planet recognized the CSA.

Not because of the slavery issue, but because they didn’t want to incur international relations problems with the US

Even at the time going to war to save slavery was seen as evil.

No, it wasn’t. Given similar things happened in Cuba and slavery was legal in the majority of the world

 

[Tigerace117]

Blah blah blah

They didn’t commit treason

By modern standards maybe, certainly not by existing standards of the time, especially given the side which you claim is unambiguously moral kept slavery legal throughout the war

Not because of the slavery issue, but because they didn’t want to incur international relations problems with the US

No, it wasn’t. Given similar things happened in Cuba and slavery was legal in the majority of the world

Another tantrum from the supposed Christian. You throwing a fit over people expecting you to have basic decency is never surprising, funnily enough.

Yes, they did. YOU not giving a shit about their actions can’t change the fact that they waged war against the US to protect slavery. Textbook treason.

Wrong as usual, as clearly demonstrated by the fact that not a single nation on earth ever recognized them.

Because nobody wanted to legitimize a regime which was explicitly fighting to defend slavery.p

You pouting and refusing to accept historical facts doesn’t change them. When will you learn?

 

[yankintx]

I wonder how you "vanquish" a symbol. Do you have to do battle with a statue or something?

Symbols represent ideas which cannot be killed.

Getting rid of the symbol doesn't get rid of the idea behind it. It goes on just as before.

It removes the idea from everyday consciousness. There are still buildings in Berlin built by Speer, but all symbols of Nazism have been removed. The Nuremberg rally grounds are still there, without the Swastika hanging obove.

So no the idea does not go away completely, but the symbols glorifying a regime that enslaved people are. The Confederate Flag is no different, it perpetuates another regime hell bent on keeping people enslaved.

 

[yankintx]

That is not why Germany doesn't have monuments to Nazi heroes. They don't have monuments to Nazi heroes because those monuments would represent the cause of the Nazis, which was an evil cause. That is the same reason why we should not have monuments to Confederate heroes. Their cause was an evil one, we should not honor evil causes. Confederate symbols and monuments belong in museums where they can be put into their proper historical context, not honored in the public square.

Accurate

Germany has WW2 memorials to there lost generation. It does not glorify the cause or regime the men died for, but what a total waste of life, and the lessons to be learnt.