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West condemns Russia over Georgia [Title Change]

Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

Good post to start a discussion with, but this is not breaking news.
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

Considering it happened today it is.
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

All places declaring independence. One was treated as being recognised by the West, the others aren't.

What are the fundemental differences?

I had serious reservations about the precedent that would be established by Kosovo's being declared a sovereign state and would have preferred a negotiated settlement between Serbia and Kosovo. I have similar reservations about today's situation with regard to South Ossetia and Abkhazia and I don't support Russia's unilateral move to recognize their sovereignty. However, I am not surprised by Russia's decision and am disappointed that the diplomatic efforts that could and should have been made to head off that outcome were not pursued.

The precedents being established favor the fragmentation of states. Such a trend, especially where statelets that lack the power and institutions for successfully undertaking good governance and sustaining their sovereignty arise, can be destablizing.

In the months ahead, I believe it is imperative that the world's major powers develop an agreed formula and set of principles that clarifies such a situation. Preferably, whatever is arrived at, would be endorsed by the United Nations to add to the perceived legitimacy of such an arrangement. In the absence of such agreed upon principles, the tendency toward national fragmentation could continue at a much faster rate than would otherwise be the case. Historic ethnic conflicts could be revived in that process.
 
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Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

The west are a bunch of hypocritical bastards on this issue.

If Serbia had invaded Kosovo, then you bet the US and Europe would have attacked Serbia and defended the peacekeepers in Kosovo.

I guess we should now not back Kosovo independence.
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

Unfortunately KOSOVO is now a done deal, we now have to live with the consequences of that unfortunate mistake made by the West.
Likewise we will also have to live with Russia's mistake in granting Russian independence to South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
What most people seem not to realize is that the Russians felt humiliated by the loss of their Empire, to the Point that Putin stated that is was a disasterous event to happen to Russia.
Russia post Soviet Union feels it has lost the respect of the World (IMHO they never had that respect).
Russia also feels hemmed in and threatened by an ever closing ring of enemy's, namely NATO countries.
Putin intends to rebuild Russian Empire, whether the West will permit this to happen rests in some doubt.
But how can we prevent Russia from going into the Baltic States ostensibly to protect it's own citizens who are threatened by the Governments of those states?
Also Russia has it's eyes on Ukraine, may in fact attempt to wrest the Crimea back from Ukraine claiming it as Russian territory.
Make no mistake, Putin fully intends recovery of nations he feels should be once again ruled by Russia.
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

The west are a bunch of hypocritical bastards on this issue.

If Serbia had invaded Kosovo, then you bet the US and Europe would have attacked Serbia and defended the peacekeepers in Kosovo.

I guess we should now not back Kosovo independence.

The precedent was set back in the 90s when the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina was recognized far before it was a reality.

Why not recognize the independence of Western Sahara, Somaliland, and Taiwan?
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

The precedent was set back in the 90s when the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina was recognized far before it was a reality.

Why not recognize the independence of Western Sahara, Somaliland, and Taiwan?

Why not?

And why did you not name the Palestinians? Or the Kurds? Or the people in Tennessee that wanted to leave the US?
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

Unfortunately KOSOVO is now a done deal, we now have to live with the consequences of that unfortunate mistake made by the West.
For a while perhaps. When the victorious powers of WWI set about dismantling the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman empires into new countries, they really botched the job. But it took several generations to realize just how badly they had done.

IMO areas like South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo are too small and lacking in resources to be viable independent states. In such a case, independence is merely a transition to union with a different neighbor.
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

The west are a bunch of hypocritical bastards on this issue.

If Serbia had invaded Kosovo, then you bet the US and Europe would have attacked Serbia and defended the peacekeepers in Kosovo.

I guess we should now not back Kosovo independence.

What have I been stating for years here? In the post Cold War world, we have to start listening to the tribes. The world had been made wrong and it was maintained during the Cold War. Post Cold War, we watched Yugolsavia tear itself apart as we behaved as if borders are forever. In Somalia we acted as if a mixture of tribes define a country. In Iraq, we assumed that tribal unity is the only answer. So many places in the world where see conflict or the threat of conflict (Congo, Nigeria, Pakistan, Indonesia, bloc nations, etc.), we see clear distinction between ethnic people within borders. S. Ossetia and Georgia are no different.

I believe that while everyone speaks about Islamic terrorism as the defining element of violence in the first half of this century, they are missing the key issues. And the key issues are instability in former colonial countries, corrupt governments in post Cold War nations, and long time denied tribal emergence.

And the West isn't being as hypocritcal about this as they are stupid. They are just ignorant of what is tying all of these issues together because they prefer a simple definition with a simple fix. They prefer that every issue be seperate and isolated from the next. What unites the violence in Somalia, "Yugoslavia," Iraq, Pakistan, Georgia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Checnya, Tajikistan, etc?

We keep insisting that the old rules apply in this new world, which we seem to refuse to recognize. Does soveriegnty belong to dictators, the free peoples, or the governments...or does it belong to a line on a map? Dictators and freely elected individuals have struggled to hold nations together insisting that nationality be preserved where there was none a hundred years ago. Tribes that threaten to leave are forced to stay or opt to force their own departure through blood. The blood of tribes is going to run deep if we don't pull our heads out of our asses and recognize this new world and our new role. And why should we help transition this? Dismissing the fact that we have a responsibilty to help, we are just going to get involved later when the cost is much higher. We have been making this mistake since the Gulf War.

The benefits of helping the world during this transition is a long term security with the original governments and a long term security with the new countries. The short term benefit is immediate resource gain, but will result in resentment and rage accompanied with a future terrorist problem (of which will always be worse and near impossible to turn around if religion is a factor). Where have we seen this before?
 
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Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo


Nothing could be further from reality, but then, since when did reality matter to a loon like Ron?

Nothing in the Iraq situation had anything to do with being "pre-emptive." That is just bizarre and absurd. The FACT is that Iraq was under numerous UN resolutions over a DECADE which it thumbed its nose at and did everything to subvert. The Oil-For-Food debacle was just more evidence of this.

Attempting to compare that situation to Georgia is just stupid. What UN resolutions had Georgia defied? What countries had Georgia unilaterally invaded?

However, that stated, as it relates to the theory of pre-emption, had the allies pre-empted Hitler back in 1938 when he annexed Czechoslovakia, they might have saved 30 million people along with over 6 million Jews.

The ONLY people who argue for a Pacifist policy at all costs are those who NEVER learn from history. The notion that despots, dictators and terrorists respond to TALK can only be expressed by those wandering in the historical wilderness of denial.
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

The west are a bunch of hypocritical bastards on this issue.

If Serbia had invaded Kosovo, then you bet the US and Europe would have attacked Serbia and defended the peacekeepers in Kosovo.

I guess we should now not back Kosovo independence.

Thank you Democrats and President Clinton. :roll:
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

Why not?

And why did you not name the Palestinians? Or the Kurds? Or the people in Tennessee that wanted to leave the US?

LMAO...yeah, we need to recognize the independent state of Tennessee.

You are a riot.
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

For a while perhaps. When the victorious powers of WWI set about dismantling the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman empires into new countries, they really botched the job. But it took several generations to realize just how badly they had done.

IMO areas like South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo are too small and lacking in resources to be viable independent states. In such a case, independence is merely a transition to union with a different neighbor.

And Russia and Putin know this so it is their strategy to recognize them as independent of Georgia so that they can eventually be re-absorbed into the former Soviet Union. The sad part is that many of these people want to cast their lot with the BIG dawg and not the small one.
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

Why not?

And why did you not name the Palestinians? Or the Kurds? Or the people in Tennessee that wanted to leave the US?

Well, for one, Morocco and China have no legal claim to Western Sahara and Taiwan respectively.

As for Somaliland, they were once an entity separate from Somalia and were forced into a union they didn't want in the first place. Why not recognize a working state when the former Italian Somaliland is a failed one?
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

For a while perhaps. When the victorious powers of WWI set about dismantling the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman empires into new countries, they really botched the job. But it took several generations to realize just how badly they had done.

IMO areas like South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo are too small and lacking in resources to be viable independent states. In such a case, independence is merely a transition to union with a different neighbor.

As for Abkhazia and South Ossetia, it is clear that it is the first step to Russian annexation. I would not be surprised if Kosovo merged with Albania at some point in the future, but the said was once said of Moldova in respect to Romania, but that hasn't happened and it has been more than a decade and a half.
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

BBC NEWS | Europe | West condemns Russia over Georgia

Discuss:

All places declaring independence. One was treated as being recognised by the West, the others aren't.

What are the fundemental differences?


In Breaking News, you are supposed to make the title of the article the title of your thread. That is a Rule, see the Sticky Rules at the top of the newest threads.

"West condemns Russia over Georgia" Should have been your thread title, otherwise your thread usually gets moved to another forum.

Oil Pipelines through Georgia gets oil cheaper than from Russia, that is the reason Georgia is supported by the West.







..
 
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Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

It doesn't take a politician. Look at every single former colonial artificial state where tribes have been forced together and you can almost guarantee what is going to happen. It's a trend we refuse to see.

Our ideas of soveriegnty keep us dealing with long expired governments.
That's an excellent analysis, but would you agree there are nations where it doesn't apply? Nations like the US and Australia which were populated by immigrants of a more-or-less like mind don't have the tribal problems which you accurately describe for the artificial nations of the post-colonial era and the breakup of the Austrian and Ottoman empires after WWI. Or European nations like Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, etc. where the nations have existed with their present borders for centuries. (I almost included Canada, but then I remembered the tribalism which threatens to separate the country every couple of generations).
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

Good post to start a discussion with, but this is not breaking news.
Yeah, it's more like broken news.
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

It doesn't take a politician. Look at every single former colonial artificial state where tribes have been forced together and you can almost guarantee what is going to happen. It's a trend we refuse to see.

Our ideas of soveriegnty keep us dealing with long expired governments.

Reading your posts about artificial borders and tribes, it sounds like you defend the right of the Ossetians to break away from Georgian rule, and Russia was doing the right thing to aid that.
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

That's an excellent analysis, but would you agree there are nations where it doesn't apply? Nations like the US and Australia which were populated by immigrants of a more-or-less like mind don't have the tribal problems which you accurately describe for the artificial nations of the post-colonial era and the breakup of the Austrian and Ottoman empires after WWI. Or European nations like Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, etc. where the nations have existed with their present borders for centuries. (I almost included Canada, but then I remembered the tribalism which threatens to separate the country every couple of generations).

America doesn't suffer from this tribalism phenomenon because we are like minded people with one goal. Early Americans also formed their borders on their own during their expansion west after throwing out the colonial oppressor that rejected them (and commenced to slaughter the host natives.) People don't stop and think about what colonialism did to the world. These people didn't matter. At was as if children pulled out a map and drew lines with a crayon. Tribes were split in half. Tribes that had been feuding for centuries were forced together and given an obedient dictator. The only thing that mattered was rivers, mountain ranges, and oceans. And throughout the Cold War, America and the Soviet Union struggled in an ideology war where these fabricated borders were maintained at all costs. And since the Cold War ended in 1989? Did you know that "Yugoslavia" was the only country in Europe not to have its border re-drawn?

The ghosts of kaisers, kings, and czars are laughing.
 
Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

Reading your posts about artificial borders and tribes, it sounds like you defend the right of the Ossetians to break away from Georgian rule, and Russia was doing the right thing to aid that.

Damn..think...this is what I have always been trying to tell you......

If America was aiding this you would simply call it warmongering. What would you say about an America that dropped Marines and soldiers in southern Turkey to aid the Kurds in their quest to unite their northern Iraqi kurds into a single new country (Kurdistan)? Think Turkey would have something to say about chooping a portion of their nation off?

Russia is making the very same mistake they and America made during the Cold War. Where Russia refuses to dismiss Cold War prescription of the past, the free world refuses to acknowledge the post Cold War of the present. They should not be playing the Ossetians against their government. They should not have been aiding fugitives of the Georgian government. Are you aware of how deep Russia has been playing around in their former bloc countries? They have been involved with civil wars. All the while, they have been more interested in extending their power base than actually helping any of them. Oh but wait....only America has ulterior evil motives.

Our roles here should be to ease the tribal transition in the Post Cold War and to work with the governments until all parties are satisfied. Some won't be satisfied. Some will cling because they feel that the borders are set in concrete despite the wishes of a large portion of their population that should have never been imprisoned behind them. Some will simply choose to slaughter those not like them. Where have we seen this? Some examples....

Bosnia
Kosovo
Serbia
Somalia
Sudan

Future tribal feuding probabilities? Some examples.....

Pakistan
Congo
Nigeria
Indonesia
Saudi Arabia
India

The ironic thing about this tribal phenomenon around the world is that we and the Soviets lifted the lids in 1989. Ending the Cold War was the goal. Nobody cared what was to come next. We were too busy celebrating our victory. Ever invade a dictator's country and fail to give attention to what was to come next? Compare it to Iraq. Like the "peace" of Iraq, our leaders simply rolled the dice. Peace after the Cold War didn't happen. People long suppressed and held down, emerged. They dove into civil wars, terrorists plots, genocides, and slaughter. The tribes began to speak out. And it's not going to end any time soon.

And if people still refuse to acknowlegde this and opt to choose to have the attitude that "genocides and terrorism have always existed".......look at the UN missions since 1989. They have more than quadrupled (I can give you an exact number tomorrow at work). The Russian and American baby sitters left the world to raise itself in 1989. And with the international community (leaders and organizations) having their heads firmly and comfortably up their asses, we have been merely reacting ever since. Why else have our military been thrown into civil wars, tribal feuds, humanitarian missions, diplomatic missions, and everything else that has nothing to do with killing an enemy? Because after two World Wars and a Cold War where victory was decisive and everything was controlled, the international community only knows of the military answer - no matter that we weren't trained for these types of missions. Our model for victory remains WWII even though we have seen Vietnams, Koreas, and Beruits. The problem became worse after 1989 where we saw Somalias, Yugoslavias, Checnyas. The military had even come up with a name for these missions during this post-Cold War period in the 90's so that we could focus on a distinct type of training.....MOOTW (Military Missions Other Than War). And since 9/11 we have even become a long extension of law enforcement as we hunt down criminals on a global scale.

Ever wonder why they call it "Post" Cold War? It's because nobody had been able to come up with a suitable name for the period between 11/9 (November 1989) and 9/11. World War II was known as the WWII era. Then came the Cold War. What came after? "Post"-Cold War? Did this period not rate a name for itself? or did we simply not know how to label this period where part of the world began to crumble before us? It was a period of breakdown. Borders no longer contained the violence within borders, because those borders were unnatural and bad to begin with. Terrorist organizations, disease, and genocide have gone international. They all stem from these unnatural tribal backward nations.

The answer is not the Cold War prescription where we maintained and even created dictators. The answer is not to cling to outdated governments or to governments too eager to keep their frankenstien's monster or a country intact. And the answer is not to wage war with host nations to defend tribes that want to secede. How many times have I stated that we have to start listening to the people and stop catering to the dictators or backward regimes that don't represent them? How many times have I stated that we have to get in tight with the tribes under the decent governments, which are merely trying to hold their nation together? We have to redefine the word "soveriegnty," which was defined by the same kings, czars, and kaisers who slashed crayons across maps two centuries ago.

What the hell kind of world do we live in where people like Saddam and Mugabe have the same "soveriegnty" as the people of France, America, or Switzerland? What the hell kind of world do we live in where fairly new borders on a map are supposed to forever keep tribes seperated or forever keep feuding tribes destryoying each other under the term "soveriegnty?" We are as stupid as those who created this problem in the first place.

Nobody sees this. We just want to keep rolling the dice and tripping our way through this. How many lives will perish and how much treasure will it cost to make this world right only after the smoking volcanoes erupt?
 
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Re: South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Kosovo

And if people still refuse to acknowlegde this and opt to choose to have the attitude that "genocides and terrorism have always existed".......look at the UN missions since 1989. They have more than quadrupled (I can give you an exact number tomorrow at work).

1945-1978: 13 peacekeeping missions and observer operations aimed at defusing crisis and building stability.

1978-1988: No new operations launched.

1988-present: 47.

A similar increase has occurred in international humanitarian missions during this recent period called the "post" Cold War. Many of these type operations faced a mix of humanitarian and security problems. They were known as "complex emergency operations" and our own military deemed them MOOTW (military operations other than war).

This is where the world's confusion came in. We were not alone. When crisis spun out of control, the White House consistently chose to thrust ill-thought-out interventions upon the military-at a time when the military was especially ill prepared for them. In the beginning of the 90s, the nickname "New World Disorder," was spread around to play on the Bush vision. The military was trying to reinvent itself in response to rapid reductions in forces and budgets. The military leadership did jnot expect or welcome a sudden plunge into nontraditional missions.

The world erupted and despite Europe's hand at creation, despite Washington and Moscow's quest to maintain bad borders, and despite Washington's refusal to acknowledge global change after the Cold War ended, the only ones that saw it up close continually was the worn out military left to figure matters out on its own. Some examples....

Somalia
Bosnia
Haiti
Bangladesh
East Timor
Rwanda

Like it or not, the battlefield is different, the front lines are different, and the face of the enemy is different. The ultmate enemy is instability or maintained oppression for "stability." From this has come terrorism, civil war, disease, famine, slauhgter, genocide, and shame.
 
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