- Joined
- Dec 1, 2010
- Messages
- 61,731
- Reaction score
- 32,384
- Location
- El Paso Strong
- Gender
- Undisclosed
- Political Leaning
- Conservative
This came up on talk radio and I thought it an interesting question because I haven't ever thought about it in those terms. Was it torture to be on one of those high jacked planes? How about being trapped in the WTC towers were the heat and smoke was so intense that several chose to leap to their deaths instead? I think a strong argument can be made that they were not only tortured, they were tortured to death. What do you think?
Attaching the poll now.
What was done to the victims of 9/11 should be outlawed. Do you agree? Or do you think it was justified for what others of USA has done in the Middle East?
What done to prisoners at Gitmo should be outlawed. Do you agree? Or do you think it was justified because of what other people did on 9/11?
What a bizarre question...you spends time thinking of these things?
What does it possibly matter even if it was torture?
Who gives a crap?
This came up on talk radio and I thought it an interesting question because I haven't ever thought about it in those terms. Was it torture to be on one of those high jacked planes? How about being trapped in the WTC towers were the heat and smoke was so intense that several chose to leap to their deaths instead? I think a strong argument can be made that they were not only tortured, they were tortured to death. What do you think?
Attaching the poll now.
By definition, that's not really torture. The important thing to recognize here is that torture wouldn't have prevented 9/11, and 10 years of war and torture hasn't made the world one bit safer. I'd even argue we're far less safe than we were on September 12th, 2001.
I've said this a bunch of times but I'll say it again. Just because you're fighting monsters doesn't mean you need to become one. The American people as a large majority are opposed to torture. The burden is on anyone else to prove and quantify that torture will make us safer, so if you can, feel free.
What was done to the victims of 9/11 should be outlawed. Do you agree? Or do you think it was justified for what others of USA has done in the Middle East?
What done to prisoners at Gitmo should be outlawed. Do you agree? Or do you think it was justified because of what other people did on 9/11?
Well sure, when someone says torture, you think of intense physical and possibly permanent damage. Those recent beheadings were torture, if you ask me. The problem is trying to lump what the U.S. did with things like that.
I do doubt the majority of the U.S. agrees with that nothing should have been done, but can you, at least, understand why some people were pissed off that it happened?
The OP's argument is utter garbage. By the same logic, the U.S. "tortured" Nazi soldiers to death when we bombed the buildings they were located in.
Torture is a deliberate intentional intention to inflicting suffering on another human being. Most ways of violently killing people also lead to suffering, but that is a byproduct, not the purpose of the act. 9/11 was mass murder, not torture.
What a bizarre question...you spends time thinking of these things?
What does it possibly matter even if it was torture?
It's like asking were the Jews on the trains going to Auschwitz concentration camp tortured by being treated so badly before they were eventually killed? What difference does it make? They were brutally murdered is what matters. Not if their treatment constitutes torture before they were murdered.
What is the point to the question?
This came up on talk radio and I thought it an interesting question because I haven't ever thought about it in those terms. Was it torture to be on one of those high jacked planes? How about being trapped in the WTC towers were the heat and smoke was so intense that several chose to leap to their deaths instead? I think a strong argument can be made that they were not only tortured, they were tortured to death. What do you think?
Attaching the poll now.
If you completely redefine the word torture to render it entirely meaningless, then yes, they were tortured.
What RabidAlpaca said.
And no, they weren't tortured.
What some did was died with a lot of fear and in gruesome conditions. The "lucky" ones were the ones that died instantly. The most unlucky ones were the ones that may have survived the collapse and died slowly under the weight of the building. But it isn't torture. It's just a horrid way to die.
To be clear, you're comparing WWII soldiers with the highjackers and those inside the WTC as the Nazis. Ok. You gotta live by your own rules, though. If you're saying they're the same and the high jackers committed mass murder then so did the WWII soldiers against the Nazis.
And my arguments are "gutter"?
Really? Let's look at the dictionary definition of torture:
1tor·ture noun \ˈtȯr-chər\
: the act of causing severe physical pain as a form of punishment or as a way to force someone to do or say something
: something that causes mental or physical suffering : a very painful or unpleasant experience
So you're saying that is not just inapplicable, it's so out of the same league that the very idea could only be described as delusional. That about cover it?
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
So some 9/11 victims were downright lucky while those who suffered more were simply unlucky. Damn their bad luck. Luck it the only true culprit here.
WW2 bombs were mass killing, just the same as 9/11. The WW2 bombings were not mass murder, because killing done to military targets serving a nation we had issued a declaration of war against is not murder.
Torture, killing, murder, these words all have definitions.
This came up on talk radio and I thought it an interesting question because I haven't ever thought about it in those terms. Was it torture to be on one of those high jacked planes? How about being trapped in the WTC towers were the heat and smoke was so intense that several chose to leap to their deaths instead? I think a strong argument can be made that they were not only tortured, they were tortured to death. What do you think?
Attaching the poll now.
Let's use US law:
If I'm judging where your thread is going correctly, waterboarding meets the definition of torture because it works by causing the person subjected to it to believe they'll be drowned, which meets part C of the definition of torture.
This came up on talk radio and I thought it an interesting question because I haven't ever thought about it in those terms. Was it torture to be on one of those high jacked planes? How about being trapped in the WTC towers were the heat and smoke was so intense that several chose to leap to their deaths instead? I think a strong argument can be made that they were not only tortured, they were tortured to death. What do you think?
Attaching the poll now.
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control; (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from— (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.
I'm not driving this thread anywhere, I'm just along for the ride. Looking at what you've posted, you're saying that nothing there could possibly apply to anything that happened on 9/11?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?