Wealth Taxes: A Future Battleground [W:471]

[cpwill]

Or in the case of the top 5%, greed results in quintupling your net worth in 30 years to $40 trillion.

Not at all. Too much greed results in you massively overbetting on sure things that give higher rates of return than the market, such as mortgage-backed-securities, and losing your money.

 

[cpwill]

How quaint.

Truth about human nature rarely changes, which is why we can find wisdom in ancient thinkers.

I doubt, though, that the American People would cut-up a goose looking for eggs to be laid one a day into eternity. I suspect they're much better acquainted with biology than that. I also don't think they view our greed-driven version of capitalism as a golden egg-laying goose. Those days are long gone.

If they don't consider a free market system a gold-egg laying goose, then that is the result of our abysmal education system.

But yes, the American people understand better than you may think - which is why almost alone out of the western nations our response to the Great Recession was to spawn a protest movement demanding less government. You can saddle a free market with bearing the cost of a government, but weigh it down too much and it cannot move so well, and may collapse.

 

[notquiteright]

The most likely scenario is no tax, because in order to get elected politicos need money. That money comes from the wealthy. Take too much and they find another politico. Of course there are those politicos that get too big, that's what the media is for. Wheels within wheels.

Well far more likely than the wealthy arming themselves and refusing to pay any new tax. I do see a likely path for increased taxes on the wealthy- no cap on SSA tax, changes in the capital gains tax- some closure on exemptions- maybe a giggling of the tax rates.

No one is saying take all rich folks money- more like lets end the rigged part of the tax code.

Course many of the wealthy claim the Republic is lost- the takers out number the takees- guess we will see soon enough.... eace

 

[TurtleDude]

Ah the Ad hom is back.

Its an accurate comment. The appeal of such nonsense is based on hatred of others

 

[TurtleDude]

Well far more likely than the wealthy arming themselves and refusing to pay any new tax. I do see a likely path for increased taxes on the wealthy- no cap on SSA tax, changes in the capital gains tax- some closure on exemptions- maybe a giggling of the tax rates.

No one is saying take all rich folks money- more like lets end the rigged part of the tax code.

Course many of the wealthy claim the Republic is lost- the takers out number the takees- guess we will see soon enough.... eace

yeah its rigged for anyone but the rich. The top 5% pay more income taxes than the rest of the country put together. Its only rigged if someone can claim that the top 5% use more government services than they pay in taxes-which of course is impossible

 

[notquiteright]

yeah its rigged for anyone but the rich. The top 5% pay more income taxes than the rest of the country put together. Its only rigged if someone can claim that the top 5% use more government services than they pay in taxes-which of course is impossible

You apparently don't understand taxes- it isn't you buying goods and services from a company or corporation it is the top 5% paying roughly 20% of their after deductions wages as taxes. No rigging in that- straight percentage of what is declared after all deductions.

Where the rigging comes in is allowing the very rich far above the $159,000 average for the upper 5% that allows them to claim wages as capital gains and start with an even lower rate. It is the rather generous exemptions that allow income to be socked away as tax protected wealth and passed down the line. it is the off shore and trust fund dodges that only benefit the extremely rich.

Can't be much of a rig against the wealthy- the top 5% gained over 80% of the increase in wealth in 2011- and that is a trend that has been ongoing since Clinton according to the WSJ. Once the top 5% LOSES ground compared to the bottom 50% THEN you might have a real complaint...

 

[TurtleDude]

You apparently don't understand taxes- it isn't you buying goods and services from a company or corporation it is the top 5% paying roughly 20% of their after deductions wages as taxes. No rigging in that- straight percentage of what is declared after all deductions.

Where the rigging comes in is allowing the very rich far above the $159,000 average for the upper 5% that allows them to claim wages as capital gains and start with an even lower rate. It is the rather generous exemptions that allow income to be socked away as tax protected wealth and passed down the line. it is the off shore and trust fund dodges that only benefit the extremely rich.

Can't be much of a rig against the wealthy- the top 5% gained over 80% of the increase in wealth in 2011- and that is a trend that has been ongoing since Clinton according to the WSJ. Once the top 5% LOSES ground compared to the bottom 50% THEN you might have a real complaint...

MOre nonsense-one of the main games of the tax the rich more crowd is to interchange rich (top 5%) with the uberwealthy. YOur rant is dependent on the ASSumption that the progressive schedule applied to earned income is proper and from that you pretend that the different schedule for investment income is improper which is both childish and stupid because the same system that created one schedule created the other. in reality, everyone should pay the same amount but since that is impossible, then everyone should pay the same rate.

 

[Joe Steel]

... It's even incentive for the supposedly crucial wealthy class to invest more.

Exactly. Use it or lose it.

 

[Joe Steel]

Look at his “Lean”. If he's true to it, then he's all in favor of bigger, more corrupt government; and thinks it a good thing to take as much wealth as possible from those who rightfully earned it, to be given to parasites who did not.

Actually, I favor taking wealth from the parasites who have it but didn't earn it and giving it to those who created it.

Take a look at the productivity gap. For the last 30 years, productivity increases haven't been matched by real income increases for the vast majority of Americans. The profits from their hard work instead went to the rich to make them richer.

We've got to get our money back.

 

[haymarket]

Ah the Ad hom is back.

Exactly. this whole "its just envy" nonsense has been repeatedly been exposed and refuted. At its core is a fuax superiority and self congratulatory pat on ones own back. It assumes that "everybody wants what I have because I am so great". Sorry - but nobody cares what you have or what you pretend to have or what imaginary universe you inhabit where you have all this stuff that everybody else is supposed to covet.

We don't care.

Never have.

Never will.

 

[Joe Steel]

Whenever someone starts a thread like this it's easy for each poster to fall back on their politically ideological positions. Frankly, you're hearts are in the right place from your relative view points, but your solutions are misplaced.

After WWII, this country experienced an economic boom. Why?

Because innovation was unleashed along side public-private partnerships.

...

Well, no.

The boom was created by the pent-up demand created by the privations of the Great Depression and WWII.

Just think of the cyclical nature of the American economy. We have booms and busts because demand for consumer goods goes through cycles. We buy a lot and have a boom and then stop buying and have a bust. The Great Depression and WWII were major busts so we were due for a major boom.

 

[Joe Steel]

everytime i read this sort of crap contained in the OP that you are responding to, I realize how smart it is for freedom loving people to be well armed

Funny you should mention that. I've been thinking about a Second Amendment remedy to our capitalist problem.

 

[haymarket]

Actually, I favor taking wealth from the parasites who have it but didn't earn it and giving it to those who created it.

Take a look at the productivity gap. For the last 30 years, productivity increases haven't been matched by real income increases for the vast majority of Americans. The profits from their hard work instead went to the rich to make them richer.

We've got to get our money back.

I suspect lots of people would agree that there is nothing basically wrong about earning a fortune. America loves a winner and when we see the stories of people like Steve Jobs, Oprah Winfrey, Magic Johnson, Steven Spielberg, Steven King and many many others who made it through hard work and talent - we admire that. On the other hand, the person who simply because of accident of birth was lucky enough to fill their silk diapers in a mansion and then inherit a pile of cash from Mumsy and Daddykins - they often deservedly merit the contempt of the average working person. They simply landed into it and did nothing to deserve it.

 

[haymarket]

Funny you should mention that. I've been thinking about a Second Amendment remedy to our capitalist problem.

Excellent. I wonder what would happen in Detroit at the upcoming bankruptcy hearings if 20,000 pensioners armed to the teeth showed up at the courthouse, surrounded it and peacefully demonstrated to be heard?

 

[washunut]

I suspect lots of people would agree that there is nothing basically wrong about earning a fortune. America loves a winner and when we see the stories of people like Steve Jobs, Oprah Winfrey, Magic Johnson, Steven Spielberg, Steven King and many many others who made it through hard work and talent - we admire that. On the other hand, the person who simply because of accident of birth was lucky enough to fill their silk diapers in a mansion and then inherit a pile of cash from Mumsy and Daddykins - they often deservedly merit the contempt of the average working person. They simply landed into it and did nothing to deserve it.

Sad that you have contempt for another person simply because they were born into a richer family than you he/she deserves. One thing to not hold them up as some great thing, but contempt??? To many have these hateful thoughts of their fellow citizens.

 

[haymarket]

Sad that you have contempt for another person simply because they were born into a richer family than you he/she deserves. One thing to not hold them up as some great thing, but contempt??? To many have these hateful thoughts of their fellow citizens.

Inherited wealth runs contrary to the very great principles that built this great nation - initiative and hard work. There is no shortage of great men and women who also had contempt for inherited wealth and the evil that it wreaks in the human spirit.

Even a conservative Brit like Winston Churchill recognized its negative impact upon both society and the individual.

Andrew Carnegie, one of the wealthiest men in America in his time said this

"By taxing estates heavily at death the State marks its condemnation of the selfish millionaire's unworthy life. It is desirable that nations should go much further in this direction."

that is not coming from some wild eyed German speaking anarchist killed in the Chicago Haymarket massacre, but from a man who viewed capitalism as nearly a whole religion and preached its gospel of wealth like a missionary expounding upon his faith.

 

[ChuckBerry]

Its an accurate comment. The appeal of such nonsense is based on hatred of others

You call other human beings parasites and you point out the hatred of others?

With all that money you have you should be able to afford a mirror.

 

[ChuckBerry]

Beyond a certain point, feeding the goose more doesn't result in more golden eggs...just more goose ****.

The debate should be about what amount of food results in the most eggs, not about starving the goose nor giving it anything it wants.

 

[blaxshep]

Being successful is a trait to be praised but to be rich is loathsome. If it were up to me there would be a cap on wealth.

 

[Helix]

wealth taxes aren't really necessary. just tax investment income as income above a certain cap.

 

[notquiteright]

MOre nonsense-one of the main games of the tax the rich more crowd is to interchange rich (top 5%) with the uberwealthy. YOur rant is dependent on the ASSumption that the progressive schedule applied to earned income is proper and from that you pretend that the different schedule for investment income is improper which is both childish and stupid because the same system that created one schedule created the other. in reality, everyone should pay the same amount but since that is impossible, then everyone should pay the same rate.

Not at all, even the Wall Street Journal points out the top 5% has increased it's wealth at a stunning rate compared to the bottom 50% which lost ground.

I'm not the ranter here- I don't make silly threats about what will happen if a private citizen tries to take from the enclave wealthy. :roll:

The dodge is permitting salary money to be declared 'bonus' money as capital gain rather than wages. No idea what you think the difference is by declaring both from one when it comes to schedules- both can be changed- investment income has long ago stopped being investment and now a simple tax dodge- tax it all as income.

I agree all of us above the poverty line should pay at the same rate- income, investment, capital gains, inheritance, trusts.... things like deferred salary and contractually obligated 'bonuses' need to stop. End the cap on SSA payroll tax... i am right there with ya! eace

 

[PirateMk1]

yeah its rigged for anyone but the rich. The top 5% pay more income taxes than the rest of the country put together. Its only rigged if someone can claim that the top 5% use more government services than they pay in taxes-which of course is impossible

Actually you're both right and wrong, the system is rigged,.... for business. The Rich Dad series explains it best with the quadrants of wealth accumulation. The best to worst tax treatment in order is investment, owning a business, being self employed, employed by others. In this country tax wise its best to invest or own a business simply because money spent BEFORE taxation rather than being employed where you are taxed BEFORE you are able to spend. You have FAR more control over how you are taxed if you own a business or invest than you do if you are employed.

 

[haymarket]

wealth taxes aren't really necessary. just tax investment income as income above a certain cap.

All money going into a persons pockets or accounts should be taxed according to the same schedule regardless of its source of origination.

 

[blaxshep]

All money going into a persons pockets or accounts should be taxed according to the same schedule regardless of its source of origination.

Actually Capital gains should be taxed at twice the rate of labor, not the other way around.

I love how Capitalists bitch about "people that get something for doing nothing" but fail to see investors as such.

 

[Helix]

All money going into a persons pockets or accounts should be taxed according to the same schedule regardless of its source of origination.

i can see exempting some investment money, but anything above a cap should be taxed as income. the way we do it now isn't working.