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We should cure homelessness

George_Washington

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lol I should have explained my post more. While I was walking through the streets of London, England, last December, I noticed something that bothered me: A homeless man with a dog. I talked to my professor about it and he took the attitude that people who are poor shouldn't have pets in the first place. He showed no compassion. However, as a Christian, I believe Jesus calls on me to show compassion for ALL homeless people. I think the government should take an effort to look into all cases homelessness and study them. We just simply can't let people linger on the street because becoming homeless and losing all your posessions can scar a person for life.
 

Diogenes

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George_Washington said:
I think we should make every effort in America to help people who are homeless find jobs. What do you guys think?
If their problem were a lack of jobs, I would agree. On the other hand, many of them are drug addicts and/or alcoholics who are not yet willing to kick their habit(s) - they would require forced institutionalization, which is not very effective until they actually recognize their problem and choose to try to reform, and you would have to fight every step of the way against the ACLU which defends their right to self-destructive behavior. Another large segment of the homeless population consists of marginally dysfunctional people who are fine as long as they take their meds, but neglect their medication when they are left to their own devices. Again, the ACLU defends their right to self-destructive behavior - we used to have these people in institutions, but the ACLU convinced Congress to close the institutions a generation ago.
 

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Diogenes said:
If their problem were a lack of jobs, I would agree. On the other hand, many of them are drug addicts and/or alcoholics who are not yet willing to kick their habit(s) - they would require forced institutionalization, which is not very effective until they actually recognize their problem and choose to try to reform, and you would have to fight every step of the way against the ACLU which defends their right to self-destructive behavior. Another large segment of the homeless population consists of marginally dysfunctional people who are fine as long as they take their meds, but neglect their medication when they are left to their own devices. Again, the ACLU defends their right to self-destructive behavior - we used to have these people in institutions, but the ACLU convinced Congress to close the institutions a generation ago.
You're right, the ACLU is a crazy organization. I agree that we should look at each homeless case individually but at least come up with some way to help the people who were genuinely made so.
 

Kandahar

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There's not much that Diogenes didn't already say, but I concur.

Very few people are homeless just because of bad luck with finances. Almost all of them choose to live on the streets because of mental problems, usually combined with one or more drug addictions.

I remember reading that there was almost no homelessness in the United States prior to the 1960s. Then the Supreme Court ruled that it was illegal for mental hospitals and drug treatment facilities to force non-dangerous people to stay against their will; almost overnight, homelessness became a problem in America. Whether or not you agree with that ruling, it does seem to be the primary cause of homelessness.
 

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George_Washington said:
You're right, the ACLU is a crazy organization. I agree that we should look at each homeless case individually but at least come up with some way to help the people who were genuinely made so.
Agreed, that is at least a nominal goal of the government welfare agencies and their employees. We also have quite a few charitable organizations that offer those services effectively, and I donate to them every year. Some people are simply the victims of bad luck (or poor preparation for adulthood), and we have a self-imposed moral obligation to help them.
 

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George_Washington said:
I think we should make every effort in America to help people who are homeless find jobs. What do you guys think?
I agree, we should help homeless people.

But many of them do have jobs.
 

Comrade Brian

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Kandahar said:
Very few people are homeless just because of bad luck with finances. Almost all of them choose to live on the streets because of mental problems, usually combined with one or more drug addictions.

I remember reading that there was almost no homelessness in the United States prior to the 1960s. Then the Supreme Court ruled that it was illegal for mental hospitals and drug treatment facilities to force non-dangerous people to stay against their will; almost overnight, homelessness became a problem in America. Whether or not you agree with that ruling, it does seem to be the primary cause of homelessness.
Some homeless people get on drugs because it appears to soothe their pains for a short while. I have noticed that a lot of people seem to say a "blame the victim" message.

Homeless people have been around forever not just in the 1960s and after.

And trust me no one chooses to live on the streets, thay are usually forced to.

Also many homeless people try to get thrown in jail, because prison has a secure source of food, water, and shelter. And are safer than the streets(but not much).
 

Kandahar

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Comrade Brian said:
Some homeless people get on drugs because it appears to soothe their pains for a short while. I have noticed that a lot of people seem to say a "blame the victim" message.
It's not a matter of blame, it's a matter of reality. That's not to say that it's usually their fault, but homelessness (in America) is rarely caused simply by economic woes.

Comrade Brian said:
Homeless people have been around forever not just in the 1960s and after.
They may have existed in small numbers before, but nothing on the scale of what you see today.

Comrade Brian said:
And trust me no one chooses to live on the streets, thay are usually forced to.
I disagree. I volunteered at a homeless shelter for three months when I was in college, and I got to talk to a lot of homeless people. Most of them were nice enough people, but their present state seemed to spring from three problems, or a combination: 1) Drug abuse, specifically alcohol. 2) Mental illness. 3) No family or friends to help them through problems #1 and #2.

Comrade Brian said:
Also many homeless people try to get thrown in jail, because prison has a secure source of food, water, and shelter. And are safer than the streets(but not much).
Sadly, this is true. What they often don't realize is that there are mental institutions willing to help them for little to no cost, where they'd be much happier than in prison.
 

Connecticutter

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Kandahar said:
I think cancer is bad.
Well, apparently these New Haven unions and city bosses disagree, as they stalled the construction of the cancer center yet another time. (Sorry this is unrelated, I'm just distresssed over local politics)

Anyway - back to homelessness - something that we have a lot of in New Haven. Some people actually make a nice amount of cash asking for money. I once offered a woman a dollar after she asked, and she rejected it and demanded 10 dollars.

Of course, there are people who are legitamately homeless. I'm not sure how to solve the problem. We already have homeless shelters and charities all over the place. Maybe we need more jobs to be available. Unfortunately, the unions wouldn't like that kind of competition. Damn, it always comes back to them.
 

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Kandahar said:
It's not a matter of blame, it's a matter of reality. That's not to say that it's usually their fault, but homelessness (in America) is rarely caused simply by economic woes.



They may have existed in small numbers before, but nothing on the scale of what you see today.



I disagree. I volunteered at a homeless shelter for three months when I was in college, and I got to talk to a lot of homeless people. Most of them were nice enough people, but their present state seemed to spring from three problems, or a combination: 1) Drug abuse, specifically alcohol. 2) Mental illness. 3) No family or friends to help them through problems #1 and #2.



Sadly, this is true. What they often don't realize is that there are mental institutions willing to help them for little to no cost, where they'd be much happier than in prison.
Homelessness is usually caused by economic woes,otherwise they would have somewhere to live other than a cardboard box. But also sometimes, people lose a job, may get some assistence from the government, and if they can't find a job, they they lose government assistence, then no income, then no way to pay for anything, then it could be off to the streets, but some friends or family might help.

Large numbers of homelessness existed before the 1960s, take a look at about a 10-year period called the Great Depression. Though homeless awareness largely came around in the 60s. Also in the 1920s, a period thought to be highly prosperous, nearly a third of the US population was living in poverty.

A lot of homeless people are on drugs because they take away the pains for a short while( and then hurt them even more) so many of them were homeless and then started drugs, but sometimes drugs can lead to homelessness.

The problem with drugs and other things is that it is terribly hard to educate poor people about some things because its not easy to get information to them. Also I think the media could help to by always keeping an eye for homelessness. Keep making stories on it, raise awareness, but I find media constantly focused other things and the super-rich and celebrities.

But a reason why I said things are like 'Blame the victim' is because homeless people are often stereotyped as lazy, stupid, and drug addicts, I hear lots of people say they are lazy, they should get jobs, and they should toughen up, they should get better jobs. But homeless people are usually homeless is because they can't get a source of income, but many homeless actually do have jobs, mostly minimum-wage jobs. But also because they are stereotyped, few people would hire them. And then they get stuck in their position.
 
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UtahBill

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The only reason my youngest brother is not homeless is because my parents left him their house. When he dies, the state takes that, because he cannot afford to pay the taxes.
SOME people are just plain lazy, some have been made totally dependent on others by their upbringing, and both of those apply to my brother. He has some skills, and was offered a job as a welder, but turned it down because it meant moving from his existing home. My sister offered him a room as the job was near her house, but he turned that down because he couldn't bring his dogs.
If he was to become homeless tomorrow, and someone offered him a safe place to go with hot meals provided, I am sure he would go.
But where is the incentive to work if you can? Some people are happy to live a minimal existence, and will NOT work if they can find someone, or some way, to just get by without actually doing something on their own to pay for it.
I don't know what percentage of the homeless that this rant applies to, but I am betting that it is a fairly large percentage.
BTW, there are lots of jobs in the Gulf Coast area right now, and many of them provide a place to live while you work. There should be a migration of homeless people in that direction going on right now. Why isn't there?
 

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UtahBill said:
I don't know what percentage of the homeless that this rant applies to, but I am betting that it is a fairly large percentage.
BTW, there are lots of jobs in the Gulf Coast area right now, and many of them provide a place to live while you work. There should be a migration of homeless people in that direction going on right now. Why isn't there?
Agreed. There is also a severe labor shortage in northwestern North Dakota right now, good paying jobs in the oil patch. The shortage is so acute that even burger flippers can make do quite well. The main reason for the shortage is that so many of the applicants flunk the drug test.

The jobs are available, at all skill levels, but you have to go to where the work is and stay off the drugs and booze. With the exception of a few hard luck cases, poverty is a personal choice - never directly, but almost always as an inevitable consequence of other poor choices or misguided priorities.
 

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Diogenes said:
Agreed. There is also a severe labor shortage in northwestern North Dakota right now, good paying jobs in the oil patch. The shortage is so acute that even burger flippers can make do quite well. The main reason for the shortage is that so many of the applicants flunk the drug test.

The jobs are available, at all skill levels, but you have to go to where the work is and stay off the drugs and booze. With the exception of a few hard luck cases, poverty is a personal choice - never directly, but almost always as an inevitable consequence of other poor choices or misguided priorities.
I was a contract employee 20 years ago for about 2 years as an Instrument and Controls tech at a Nuclear Power Plant in AZ, the pay was $21 per hour and $280 per week perdiem. A company contacted me recently wanting me to apply, but is only offering $25 per hour 20 years later? Perdiem is up, but so are expenses that eat up the perdiem.
Who wants to go work a temporary job, live out of motels, or travel trailers that don't come cheap and require a big expensive truck to tow them?
I don't understand the low pay. My pay, when I was doing it, was higher than their permanent employees, but those guys got benefits and had a permanent job. I had to provide my own benefits and insurance. Surely the same situation should apply now? With only 2% inflation, the pay should be around $32 per hour for temporary contract work.
There are thousands of highly skilled older workers available, but the contract companies keep too much of what they charge, and rip off the actual worker.
I can understand why some people refuse to work, especially if they have a working spouse with a good income to fall back on. The best offer I had in the last 2 years was about half what I was making when last employed. Another was considerably less than half. And both were a long commute away from home. I have SOME pride left, and turned them down.
But if I was homeless, or desperate in any way, I would have grabbed the first offer.
I can be bought, but not that cheaply.:confused:
 

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UtahBill said:
The only reason my youngest brother is not homeless is because my parents left him their house. When he dies, the state takes that, because he cannot afford to pay the taxes.
SOME people are just plain lazy, some have been made totally dependent on others by their upbringing, and both of those apply to my brother. He has some skills, and was offered a job as a welder, but turned it down because it meant moving from his existing home. My sister offered him a room as the job was near her house, but he turned that down because he couldn't bring his dogs.
If he was to become homeless tomorrow, and someone offered him a safe place to go with hot meals provided, I am sure he would go.
But where is the incentive to work if you can? Some people are happy to live a minimal existence, and will NOT work if they can find someone, or some way, to just get by without actually doing something on their own to pay for it.
I don't know what percentage of the homeless that this rant applies to, but I am betting that it is a fairly large percentage.
BTW, there are lots of jobs in the Gulf Coast area right now, and many of them provide a place to live while you work. There should be a migration of homeless people in that direction going on right now. Why isn't there?
If you're poor and can't afford to move your stuff, then how can you move?

I don't think anyone is really that happy to live a minimal existance. They might talk themselves into it but their viewpoint is no doubt based on emotional/mental problems.
 

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How much stuff can a homeless person have? Likewise the poor? I moved from Idaho to Arizona 4 months ahead of my family and got everything I needed in my car, including pots,pans, utensils, technical library, and tools. I rented a furnished apartment, studio actually.
I see no future in making a list of excuses for people; they are able to do that for themselves. They need a list of reasons to get up and go.
 

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UtahBill said:
How much stuff can a homeless person have? Likewise the poor? I moved from Idaho to Arizona 4 months ahead of my family and got everything I needed in my car, including pots,pans, utensils, technical library, and tools. I rented a furnished apartment, studio actually.
I see no future in making a list of excuses for people; they are able to do that for themselves. They need a list of reasons to get up and go.
I guess you have a point; it might be easier for a homeless person to move than for someone with a house, a car, etc.
 

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George_Washington said:
I think we should make every effort in America to help people who are homeless find jobs. What do you guys think?
first you would have to cure the billionaires of their excessive wealth; they are the ones who are hardput to hire the homeless for their low corporate performance; only the best employees will do
 

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galenrox said:
Dude, come ON don't concede that the ACLU is a crazy organization!
I am so sick of people blaming all of the world's problems on the ACLU. The ACLU is an organization created for the sole purpose of protecting our civil liberties, and I am PROUD to be a card carrying member!
The basic premise of the ACLU is sound. But it's just the things they've done in the last 30 years or so that I don't agree with. There are just so many things, it would take me all day to list them. For one thing they support affirmative action. They complained that people's rights were being violated in New York when the government searched people at random. They've opposed the patriot act as far as I know. So I don't have a problem with protecting our civil liberties but I think nowadays the ACLU has become a really partisan liberal organization.
 

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George_Washington said:
lol I should have explained my post more. While I was walking through the streets of London, England, last December, I noticed something that bothered me: A homeless man with a dog. I talked to my professor about it and he took the attitude that people who are poor shouldn't have pets in the first place. He showed no compassion. However, as a Christian, I believe Jesus calls on me to show compassion for ALL homeless people. I think the government should take an effort to look into all cases homelessness and study them. We just simply can't let people linger on the street because becoming homeless and losing all your posessions can scar a person for life.
I think the government should stay out of our lives and stick to protecting the personal and property rights of people. Nobody said freedom was all a bed of roses. I could see some justification for programs that help the truly mentally ill or those who have a serious disability.
 

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George_Washington said:
The basic premise of the ACLU is sound. But it's just the things they've done in the last 30 years or so that I don't agree with. There are just so many things, it would take me all day to list them. For one thing they support affirmative action. They complained that people's rights were being violated in New York when the government searched people at random. They've opposed the patriot act as far as I know. So I don't have a problem with protecting our civil liberties but I think nowadays the ACLU has become a really partisan liberal organization.
Don't waiver... You were right the first time. :rofl
 

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galenrox said:
Yes, they defend people's rights to self destructive behavior. Think about this then, if self destructive behavior wasn't allowed and wasn't defended, this would apply to you. Everyone does something at least somewhat self destructive that you would be ENRAGED if the government came and tried to stop you from doing it, but oh no, if its someone else's self destructive nature, that's not acceptable.
The only times it really bothers me are (a) when they bring behavior into the streets when it really belongs behind closed doors, and (b) when they try to pick my pocket to pay for the consequences of their own bad choices. I feel no moral obligation whatsoever to "help" (i.e., enable) someone who abuses himself.

The whole concept of civil liberties is that they apply to everyone, and the downside of them is that sometimes people will do things that you don't like. And thus you are left having to face the choice, do I want to give away MY rights because I don't like how he's using his, or should I accept that it's NOT MY BUSINESS!!
Sometimes they make it your business.

The ACLU defended a homeless woman who refused to go to a shelter, and who provided the reporters with a photo op when she squatted over a storm sewer grate to relieve herself. Sanitary sewage is thoroughly treated, by rules laid down by EPA, before being released into the river. Storm sewers merely drain the streets and go directly to the river without treatment, which is why her act was illegal with very good cause.

The ACLU has also defended NAMBLA, but the removal of sexual predators should be a priority of every citizen concerned with a safe place to raise a family.

The ACLU is a prime example of an organization that has put together a noble mission statement, but is in practice a contemptible cancer on society.
 

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Diogenes said:
Agreed. There is also a severe labor shortage in northwestern North Dakota right now, good paying jobs in the oil patch. The shortage is so acute that even burger flippers can make do quite well. The main reason for the shortage is that so many of the applicants flunk the drug test.

The jobs are available, at all skill levels, but you have to go to where the work is and stay off the drugs and booze. With the exception of a few hard luck cases, poverty is a personal choice - never directly, but almost always as an inevitable consequence of other poor choices or misguided priorities.
And how would they get to N Dakota?A car? Not too meny homeless people have cars and they also have to pay for gas. A bus? also can be costly, so are most forms of transportation. And as I said before, most people wouldn't hire a homeless person, because they are stereotyped as lazy, stupid, etc. So most think that in hiring them they wouldn't do a thing and they would be wasting time and money.

And why many are drug addicts is because they are told some substance will ease their pain, and when they try it it does, and when it stops working they're addicted. They often don't know its bad is because most homeless people don't get good education. I wouldn't be seeing many homeless people going to college.
 

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Comrade Brian said:
And how would they get to N Dakota?A car? Not too meny homeless people have cars and they also have to pay for gas. A bus? also can be costly, so are most forms of transportation. And as I said before, most people wouldn't hire a homeless person, because they are stereotyped as lazy, stupid, etc. So most think that in hiring them they wouldn't do a thing and they would be wasting time and money.

And why many are drug addicts is because they are told some substance will ease their pain, and when they try it it does, and when it stops working they're addicted. They often don't know its bad is because most homeless people don't get good education. I wouldn't be seeing many homeless people going to college.
What a load....
If they can afford drugs and/or alcohol, they can afford a bus ticket. But if they are doing drugs, they are wasting their time to go. Druggies don't deserve jobs until they kick the habit. Do you want a user on the job with you? And it is not stereotyping a person by calling them stupid if they do drugs. You have to be stupid to do drugs.
Drug addicts were told some substance would ease their pain? Are they so stupid that they believe that? Who believes what pushers say? Anybody? Everybody knows it is stupid, and bad, and not the answer to any problem. It doesn't take more than a 3rd grade education to know that it is bad.
Keep making excuses for them if you want, but that isn't going to cure anything. The cure for homeless druggies lies within themselves. They have to want to quit first, and then they have to face HARD reality and stay clean.
We owe them nothing more than a little help, but they don't even get that unless they prove that they can stay off the dope.
 
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