• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

We only attack brutal dictatorships

Connecticutter

Active member
Joined
Jun 25, 2005
Messages
432
Reaction score
0
Location
New Haven, CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
We only attack countries when their government has brutalize their own people.

That's not true throughout history, but it's certainly true recently. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan. If military action is to be used elsewhere, I believe that we'd only attack a dictatorship that commits unspeakable atrocities.

Now, I know a lot of you will say that Saddam's atrocities are not the reason that we went into Iraq, and I agree. However, I don't think we would have gone in there if he hadn't done these things.

Just a thought. Do you agree or disagree? What do you make of it?
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Connecticutter said:
We only attack countries when their government has brutalize their own people.

That's not true throughout history, but it's certainly true recently. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan. If military action is to be used elsewhere, I believe that we'd only attack a dictatorship that commits unspeakable atrocities.

Now, I know a lot of you will say that Saddam's atrocities are not the reason that we went into Iraq, and I agree. However, I don't think we would have gone in there if he hadn't done these things.

Just a thought. Do you agree or disagree? What do you make of it?
Agree, but only about 10%...

It's a justification, but only one of a few...

This war has about 10 different angles, and it is accompanied by a much larger picture on Middle Eastern culture, that to simplify it to one or two things does not do it justice...

It is a war for (and against) many things...no need to cherry-pick the "flavor of the month"...
 

Connecticutter

Active member
Joined
Jun 25, 2005
Messages
432
Reaction score
0
Location
New Haven, CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
cnredd said:
Agree, but only about 10%...

It's a justification, but only one of a few...

This war has about 10 different angles, and it is accompanied by a much larger picture on Middle Eastern culture, that to simplify it to one or two things does not do it justice...

It is a war for (and against) many things...no need to cherry-pick the "flavor of the month"...
I agree - but let me ask you a direct question: do you believe that we still would have gone into Iraq if there was no documented brutality of Saddam Hussein's regime against the Iraqi people? I just don't see it happening.
 

stsburns

American Infidel
DP Veteran
Joined
May 8, 2005
Messages
1,297
Reaction score
46
Location
Pergatory
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
We could go through history where many rulers were as brutal as Saddam. Such as Hilter, Musolini, Castro, Ghan, etc... Sometimes we interviened and sometimes the society overthrew them. :doh
 
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
1,011
Reaction score
306
Location
Geelong, Australia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
And sometimes the U.S just supported dictators.

Remember Pinnochet, millitary Juntas in Brazil, Argentina, Greece, by any chance?
 

stsburns

American Infidel
DP Veteran
Joined
May 8, 2005
Messages
1,297
Reaction score
46
Location
Pergatory
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Australianlibertarian said:
And sometimes the U.S just supported dictators.

Remember Pinnochet, millitary Juntas in Brazil, Argentina, Greece, by any chance?
Probably part of a peace treaty? :rofl
 
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
1,011
Reaction score
306
Location
Geelong, Australia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
:mrgreen:

Very funny, but I suppose we could all turn a blind eye, to the human rights abuses because they were capitalist dictators not communist ones.

A dictator is a dictator is a dictator!
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Connecticutter said:
I agree - but let me ask you a direct question: do you believe that we still would have gone into Iraq if there was no documented brutality of Saddam Hussein's regime against the Iraqi people? I just don't see it happening.
This answer is SOOOO long and complex...I don't think I have the stamina for it...I'll simplify...

If anyone thinks Iraq is the problem in and of itself, they are mistaken...

WMDs...rape rooms...Abu Gharib...Sunni vs. Shia vs. Kurd...etc, etc, etc...

All minor compared to the bigger threat...Middle Eastern values and ancient anti-western cultures...

Whether anyone likes it or not, Iraq is just the beginning...

America has long shied away from the "bigger picture" for DECADES while we watched Seinfeld & Friends and ate our Big Macs...The clouds were gathering, and the weathermen's voices haven't been loud enough to get anyone to understand that the storm was a brewin'...

Oh sure...You've seen INSTANCES of rainfall...but everyone just closed their eyes thinking the big hurricane would go away if they act like the hints of it never existed..."These instances were isolated!" people would say...not realizing that war has been proclaimed years earlier by the WHOLE DAMN CIVILIZATION...Mullahs and clerics telling their Middle Eastern Society how everything is the "West's" fault...stubbing your toe on a rock was a reason to kill an American or a European...

They yelled at us...We didn't listen...
They shot at our planes...We didn't listen...
They put out "fatwas" declaring to kill a Western on sight at anytime and anywhere...we yawned and went back to Playstation...

Then 9/11...

Some people STILL can't get it into their heads that this isn't "Osama vs. US and when we kill or capture Osama; game over."...They don't understand that if I snapped my fingers RIGHT NOW and every terrorist in the world died, the problem would NOT go away...

We NEED to change the ideology that breeds terrorism...Right now some are reading this and whining "Yeah but they're doing it wrong!...Going into Iraq MADE more terrorists!"...The ones who are reading my comments and thinking this would be naive to the "big picture."...If Iraq wasn't the reason an individual wanted to "die for Allah", whatever the next thing the Mullahs shoved down their throat would've been...

We're "infidels"...That's reason enough...They've been crying "Death to America" long before we were in Iraq...

So the ideology needs to be changed by doing two things...

Point #1) Short-term - Get rid of the threats by going after the ones who want to hurt us now..

Point #2) Long-term - Change their way of thinking before it builds into such a threat that by the time you realize it's at your door, it's way too late...

When GWB says that "it's better to fight them over there than in our streets", he isn't talking about the next few years...He's talking about the next few generations...

Hitler could've been cut off at the knees early on...but Europe continued to appease and appease while he continued to build and to build until it got to a point where he almost took over all of those that appeased him!...If anyone fought him five years earlier WWII would've been a blip on the radar...

Same thing...Hate to tell ya...Iraq is a blip...

Now the question of "Why Iraq?"...simple...Americans are stupid...

Look at everything I've written...You've seen members of this forum continue to shy away from it...Can you imagine how the country would react if GWB said the same things I've just written?...They'd tell him to stop bothering them while they go back to watching American Idol & Survivor/Detroit or wherever the hell they are this week...

If there's a major snowstorm reported five days in advance, why does everyone wait until 2 hours before the storm to go shopping and then bitch when there's no bread and milk?...How may people CHOOSE to sit through a hurricane because they think "It won't be that bad."?...How many people cross their fingers when they see the "engine light" go on and try to make it to work for the rest of the week?...Some people choose the path of least resistance even though the the one with more resistance now will prove the best path in the long run...

Bush would be saying "More resistance now...nip it in the bud before it gets out of hand."...But still some don't listen...they want the path of least resistance in spite of themselves...

So Bush pointed to the one place that Americans know well...Within that place was a popular enemy...One with a track record...Also, it is the one place that is centralized in Middle Eastern geography that was a positive to military entrance...

Some say Bush lied...Some say he didn't...I don't believe he did, but honestly?... I don't give a rat's ass...I couldn't care less if he said we needed to go Iraq because that's where the Fountain of Youth and Hoffa's body were...I see the "bigger picture"...I see through all of the mamby-pamby nit-pick political bullcrap...

We needed a "front door" (see Point #1 above) so we can actively proceed to Point #2 (above)...

So to answer your question...

do you believe that we still would have gone into Iraq if there was no documented brutality of Saddam Hussein's regime against the Iraqi people?
Yes...

Let's add a couple..

Was pointing that out only to get people on the same team with what we were going to do anyway?

Yes...

Do I believe that 911 opened up his eyes(and others...myself included) that the problem isn't relegated to one country, disproving that "Saddam didn't attack us, so we shouldn't have attacked him" bullshit?...

Yes...

Do I believe that if we don't fight now, the fight will come to Western Society later whether we like it or not?...

Yes...

Is this only the beginning?...

Yes...

Unless, of course, the appeasement crowd delivers a leader who will go back to the position the last four presidents took...which will allow the wounds inflicted on this perverted ideology time to heal...

Game...Set...Match...:cool:
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
23,722
Reaction score
8,409
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
cnredd said:
This answer is SOOOO long and complex...I don't think I have the stamina for it...I'll simplify...

If anyone thinks Iraq is the problem in and of itself, they are mistaken...

WMDs...rape rooms...Abu Gharib...Sunni vs. Shia vs. Kurd...etc, etc, etc...

All minor compared to the bigger threat...Middle Eastern values and ancient anti-western cultures...

Whether anyone likes it or not, Iraq is just the beginning...

America has long shied away from the "bigger picture" for DECADES while we watched Seinfeld & Friends and ate our Big Macs...The clouds were gathering, and the weathermen's voices haven't been loud enough to get anyone to understand that the storm was a brewin'...

Oh sure...You've seen INSTANCES of rainfall...but everyone just closed their eyes thinking the big hurricane would go away if they act like the hints of it never existed..."These instances were isolated!" people would say...not realizing that war has been proclaimed years earlier by the WHOLE DAMN CIVILIZATION...Mullahs and clerics telling their Middle Eastern Society how everything is the "West's" fault...stubbing your toe on a rock was a reason to kill an American or a European...

They yelled at us...We didn't listen...
They shot at our planes...We didn't listen...
They put out "fatwas" declaring to kill a Western on sight at anytime and anywhere...we yawned and went back to Playstation...

Then 9/11...

Some people STILL can't get it into their heads that this isn't "Osama vs. US and when we kill or capture Osama; game over."...They don't understand that if I snapped my fingers RIGHT NOW and every terrorist in the world died, the problem would NOT go away...

We NEED to change the ideology that breeds terrorism...Right now some are reading this and whining "Yeah but they're doing it wrong!...Going into Iraq MADE more terrorists!"...The ones who are reading my comments and thinking this would be naive to the "big picture."...If Iraq wasn't the reason an individual wanted to "die for Allah", whatever the next thing the Mullahs shoved down their throat would've been...

We're "infidels"...That's reason enough...They've been crying "Death to America" long before we were in Iraq...

So the ideology needs to be changed by doing two things...

Point #1) Short-term - Get rid of the threats by going after the ones who want to hurt us now..

Point #2) Long-term - Change their way of thinking before it builds into such a threat that by the time you realize it's at your door, it's way too late...

When GWB says that "it's better to fight them over there than in our streets", he isn't talking about the next few years...He's talking about the next few generations...

Hitler could've been cut off at the knees early on...but Europe continued to appease and appease while he continued to build and to build until it got to a point where he almost took over all of those that appeased him!...If anyone fought him five years earlier WWII would've been a blip on the radar...

Same thing...Hate to tell ya...Iraq is a blip...

Now the question of "Why Iraq?"...simple...Americans are stupid...

Look at everything I've written...You've seen members of this forum continue to shy away from it...Can you imagine how the country would react if GWB said the same things I've just written?...They'd tell him to stop bothering them while they go back to watching American Idol & Survivor/Detroit or wherever the hell they are this week...

If there's a major snowstorm reported five days in advance, why does everyone wait until 2 hours before the storm to go shopping and then bitch when there's no bread and milk?...How may people CHOOSE to sit through a hurricane because they think "It won't be that bad."?...How many people cross their fingers when they see the "engine light" go on and try to make it to work for the rest of the week?...Some people choose the path of least resistance even though the the one with more resistance now will prove the best path in the long run...

Bush would be saying "More resistance now...nip it in the bud before it gets out of hand."...But still some don't listen...they want the path of least resistance in spite of themselves...

So Bush pointed to the one place that Americans know well...Within that place was a popular enemy...One with a track record...Also, it is the one place that is centralized in Middle Eastern geography that was a positive to military entrance...

Some say Bush lied...Some say he didn't...I don't believe he did, but honestly?... I don't give a rat's ass...I couldn't care less if he said we needed to go Iraq because that's where the Fountain of Youth and Hoffa's body were...I see the "bigger picture"...I see through all of the mamby-pamby nit-pick political bullcrap...

We needed a "front door" (see Point #1 above) so we can actively proceed to Point #2 (above)...

So to answer your question...



Yes...

Let's add a couple..

Was pointing that out only to get people on the same team with what we were going to do anyway?

Yes...

Do I believe that 911 opened up his eyes(and others...myself included) that the problem isn't relegated to one country, disproving that "Saddam didn't attack us, so we shouldn't have attacked him" bullshit?...

Yes...

Do I believe that if we don't fight now, the fight will come to Western Society later whether we like it or not?...

Yes...

Is this only the beginning?...

Yes...

Unless, of course, the appeasement crowd delivers a leader who will go back to the position the last four presidents took...which will allow the wounds inflicted on this perverted ideology time to heal...

Game...Set...Match...:cool:

Very well said. The bigger picture escapes most still. I don't believe it is that they can't get it. I believe that they just don't want it to exist so they refuse to acknowledge it. They want to believe that World Wars are a thing of the past...they're wrong. There is a clash of civilizations coming that will result in another World War and so far only America and a few allies are trying to prevent it. Why? Because this enemy is trying to destroy us...not Europe. Even in our own country, we have our own people parading around political BS instead of standing strong. These would be the same people that didn't know anything about this threat before Bush came along and carefully presented it to them as best a President on international TV can without hurting diplomatic ties for our oil. Were it not for our need for oil, we would have not had to ***** foot around with the "House of Saud" for so long as they use us as a scapegoat to oppress their people into desperate fanaticism. There is nothing new about this threat. Like I've said before, this could have easily been Clinton if he listened to the experts that have been studying this since the Reagan era instead of just making reports like Bush Sr. did.
 

Mancunian

Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Messages
72
Reaction score
2
Location
Manchester, England
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
cnredd said:
This answer is SOOOO long and complex...I don't think I have the stamina for it...I'll simplify...

If anyone thinks Iraq is the problem in and of itself, they are mistaken...

WMDs...rape rooms...Abu Gharib...Sunni vs. Shia vs. Kurd...etc, etc, etc...

All minor compared to the bigger threat...Middle Eastern values and ancient anti-western cultures...

Whether anyone likes it or not, Iraq is just the beginning...

America has long shied away from the "bigger picture" for DECADES while we watched Seinfeld & Friends and ate our Big Macs...The clouds were gathering, and the weathermen's voices haven't been loud enough to get anyone to understand that the storm was a brewin'...

Oh sure...You've seen INSTANCES of rainfall...but everyone just closed their eyes thinking the big hurricane would go away if they act like the hints of it never existed..."These instances were isolated!" people would say...not realizing that war has been proclaimed years earlier by the WHOLE DAMN CIVILIZATION...Mullahs and clerics telling their Middle Eastern Society how everything is the "West's" fault...stubbing your toe on a rock was a reason to kill an American or a European...

They yelled at us...We didn't listen...
They shot at our planes...We didn't listen...
They put out "fatwas" declaring to kill a Western on sight at anytime and anywhere...we yawned and went back to Playstation...

Then 9/11...

Some people STILL can't get it into their heads that this isn't "Osama vs. US and when we kill or capture Osama; game over."...They don't understand that if I snapped my fingers RIGHT NOW and every terrorist in the world died, the problem would NOT go away...

We NEED to change the ideology that breeds terrorism...Right now some are reading this and whining "Yeah but they're doing it wrong!...Going into Iraq MADE more terrorists!"...The ones who are reading my comments and thinking this would be naive to the "big picture."...If Iraq wasn't the reason an individual wanted to "die for Allah", whatever the next thing the Mullahs shoved down their throat would've been...

We're "infidels"...That's reason enough...They've been crying "Death to America" long before we were in Iraq...

So the ideology needs to be changed by doing two things...

Point #1) Short-term - Get rid of the threats by going after the ones who want to hurt us now..

Point #2) Long-term - Change their way of thinking before it builds into such a threat that by the time you realize it's at your door, it's way too late...

When GWB says that "it's better to fight them over there than in our streets", he isn't talking about the next few years...He's talking about the next few generations...

Hitler could've been cut off at the knees early on...but Europe continued to appease and appease while he continued to build and to build until it got to a point where he almost took over all of those that appeased him!...If anyone fought him five years earlier WWII would've been a blip on the radar...

Same thing...Hate to tell ya...Iraq is a blip...

Now the question of "Why Iraq?"...simple...Americans are stupid...

Look at everything I've written...You've seen members of this forum continue to shy away from it...Can you imagine how the country would react if GWB said the same things I've just written?...They'd tell him to stop bothering them while they go back to watching American Idol & Survivor/Detroit or wherever the hell they are this week...

If there's a major snowstorm reported five days in advance, why does everyone wait until 2 hours before the storm to go shopping and then bitch when there's no bread and milk?...How may people CHOOSE to sit through a hurricane because they think "It won't be that bad."?...How many people cross their fingers when they see the "engine light" go on and try to make it to work for the rest of the week?...Some people choose the path of least resistance even though the the one with more resistance now will prove the best path in the long run...

Bush would be saying "More resistance now...nip it in the bud before it gets out of hand."...But still some don't listen...they want the path of least resistance in spite of themselves...

So Bush pointed to the one place that Americans know well...Within that place was a popular enemy...One with a track record...Also, it is the one place that is centralized in Middle Eastern geography that was a positive to military entrance...

Some say Bush lied...Some say he didn't...I don't believe he did, but honestly?... I don't give a rat's ass...I couldn't care less if he said we needed to go Iraq because that's where the Fountain of Youth and Hoffa's body were...I see the "bigger picture"...I see through all of the mamby-pamby nit-pick political bullcrap...

We needed a "front door" (see Point #1 above) so we can actively proceed to Point #2 (above)...

So to answer your question...



Yes...

Let's add a couple..

Was pointing that out only to get people on the same team with what we were going to do anyway?

Yes...

Do I believe that 911 opened up his eyes(and others...myself included) that the problem isn't relegated to one country, disproving that "Saddam didn't attack us, so we shouldn't have attacked him" bullshit?...

Yes...

Do I believe that if we don't fight now, the fight will come to Western Society later whether we like it or not?...

Yes...

Is this only the beginning?...

Yes...

Unless, of course, the appeasement crowd delivers a leader who will go back to the position the last four presidents took...which will allow the wounds inflicted on this perverted ideology time to heal...

Game...Set...Match...:cool:

I appreciate your honesty in saying what GWB probably wants to say without offending the many decent Muslims out there.

However, forgetting the short-term and citing “Point 2 …. We NEED to change the ideology that breeds terrorism...”

How exactly are we going to be able to change the ideology? After all, Western democracy is just another ideology; a better one in both of our opinions but not necessarily to everyone’s taste.

Can I ask you if you respect other cultures or is western democracy the only way to go? Supposing I read between the lines and understand you to have meant extreme values when you said that “Middle Eastern values are a threat”. People who have these values have loved ones who more than likely share the same values. Let’s say as many as 95% of Iraqi’s agree with you, there are still 5% who will fight against you. That 5% will have children and may ‘educate’ others into their way of thinking and on and on…. Machiavelli would advise you to kill the offspring or loved ones of the extremists. Would that be your advice? Thankfully, probably not.

Of course, you can try education in schools once you have occupied a country but if you stick to being democratic, the way is open for extremism to be taught as well. There is also the question of how you occupy other countries in the Middle East. If Iraq is a success, it doesn’t necessarily follow that other countries will open their doors willingly. More war and more death is likely and there are just no guarantees of success.

So, how can you kill an ideology? Sounds like an impossible job to me but if you insist that it’s possible, please explain how.
 

oldreliable67

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
4,641
Reaction score
1,102
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
how can you kill an ideology?
The question, and the task, isn't how to kill an ideology. The question and the task is how to isolate that part of a religion or ideology, if you will, that has become a threat to all non-Muslims and indeed, has become perverted and no longer recognizable to many of that religion's adherents. Islam itself is fractured, with the Salafists jihadis attempting to portray a return to the so-called 'glory days' of the Caliphate as a solution for all the disaffection, disappointment and lack of economic well-being for too much of the world's Muslim population.

Radical Islamists hold only with a theocracy, where Islamic law and government are one. A important task for us is to convince non-radical Muslims that the way to economic well-being is to embrace a form of representative government that allows freedom of religion for all, including Muslim.

Can the radical Islamists be totally eliminated? Probably not. But by demonstating the advantages of a representative form of government, we hope to trivialize them.

This is just one aspect of the problem - it is of course, a much broader problem than can be addressed adequately in this space.

Go here for a PBS discussion on the Salafist Movement.
 

stsburns

American Infidel
DP Veteran
Joined
May 8, 2005
Messages
1,297
Reaction score
46
Location
Pergatory
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Australianlibertarian said:
:mrgreen:

Very funny, but I suppose we could all turn a blind eye, to the human rights abuses because they were capitalist dictators not communist ones.

A dictator is a dictator is a dictator!
If George Bush was a dictator as much as he's portrayed, alot of libertarians would be put to death on loyalty orders. The military would be at everyones doorstep and we would all have to join the force or be killed.

But I leave you with a question? Name one capitalist dictator? :confused:
 

Comrade Brian

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
0
Location
NE, Minnesota
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
stsburns said:
But I leave you with a question? Name one capitalist dictator? :confused:
Pinochet is a good example. He was quite friendly to US, and US corporations. Sounds like one to me.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
23,722
Reaction score
8,409
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Mancunian said:
I appreciate your honesty in saying what GWB probably wants to say without offending the many decent Muslims out there.

However, forgetting the short-term and citing “Point 2 …. We NEED to change the ideology that breeds terrorism...”

How exactly are we going to be able to change the ideology? After all, Western democracy is just another ideology; a better one in both of our opinions but not necessarily to everyone’s taste.

Can I ask you if you respect other cultures or is western democracy the only way to go? Supposing I read between the lines and understand you to have meant extreme values when you said that “Middle Eastern values are a threat”. People who have these values have loved ones who more than likely share the same values. Let’s say as many as 95% of Iraqi’s agree with you, there are still 5% who will fight against you. That 5% will have children and may ‘educate’ others into their way of thinking and on and on…. Machiavelli would advise you to kill the offspring or loved ones of the extremists. Would that be your advice? Thankfully, probably not.

Of course, you can try education in schools once you have occupied a country but if you stick to being democratic, the way is open for extremism to be taught as well. There is also the question of how you occupy other countries in the Middle East. If Iraq is a success, it doesn’t necessarily follow that other countries will open their doors willingly. More war and more death is likely and there are just no guarantees of success.

So, how can you kill an ideology? Sounds like an impossible job to me but if you insist that it’s possible, please explain how.

I believe all of what you typed can be summed up with......"Our fight must be with the few, but our struggle must be with the many."

You can't entirely kill an idealogy, but you can counteract it by allowing for the free flow of information. Extremists will reamin for some time, but there must be a beginning. Every religion has had their dark age. Much like Christianity in 16th century Europe struggled for an identity amongst its numerous sects, Islam is struggling. This will be painful, but it will take generations. Iraq will end, but it won't be the end of it. It's not a matter of right and wrong, it is neccessary. This is a war on attrition. It's foolish for us to pretend that we are not in a war on attrition while our enemy continues to kill us. We, as well, as the people in the Middle East are going to endure some growing pains, but we have no choice. We could continue to receive our oil and look the other way as the Arab elite opresses their people as we have in the past, but the result has been deadly to us and if left to digress futher, the violence will be more deadly. This is the age of nuclear power and we face a determined enemy. We can no longer look the other way, because their extremists are determined to be at war with us.

By the way, currently, Syria has been imprisoning their reformists. They are on the run because, while they do not want American boots on their soil, they agree with Bush's sense of change. Iran's population is 70 percent youth under thirty years old and they do not agree with their Mullah's sense of theocracy. They are fractured. Khomeini brutalized Islam and they know it. They want a more democratic country where they have a voice. The Shi'ite leadership in Iraq know that the Iranian theocracy is failing. They don't want it. They see it as living on borrowed time. A successful Iraq may prove to be more influential to these countries than people think. Time will tell, but we have every reason to believe that the natural will of freedom will spread beyond Iraq's borders. This does not mean that we will directly be involved with this beyond Iraq. I believe that Syria and Iran have the capacity to change, where Iraq did not. Iraq was very important to encourage this, because "if Saddam's Iraq can change, then surely we can too." In the end, ultimate success or failure will be on their shoulders. Islam in the Middle East can only be fixed by Muslims. All we did was provide the bicycle. It's up to them to remove the training wheels.


-I study this stuff constantly.
 
Last edited:

MSgt

Stabler Genius
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
23,722
Reaction score
8,409
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
stsburns said:
If George Bush was a dictator as much as he's portrayed, alot of libertarians would be put to death on loyalty orders. The military would be at everyones doorstep and we would all have to join the force or be killed.

But I leave you with a question? Name one capitalist dictator? :confused:

People that say that are just being overly dramatic. People all over the world know very well that in a few years there will be a new "dictator" in the White House for them to hate for one reason or another. Our progressions are the reasons for everyone else's failure.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
23,722
Reaction score
8,409
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Comrade Brian said:
Pinochet is a good example. He was quite friendly to US, and US corporations. Sounds like one to me.
There are plenty of examples if you look at it like that. There are plenty of dictators that invest.
 

Iriemon

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
19,405
Reaction score
2,187
Location
Miami
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
cnredd said:
This answer is SOOOO long and complex...I don't think I have the stamina for it...I'll simplify...

...

Game...Set...Match...:cool:
...not realizing that war has been proclaimed years earlier by the WHOLE DAMN CIVILIZATION...

Is what you are essentially asserting (if I am not mistaken) is that the entire Islamic culture are utlimately terrorists? If so, how is killing a few tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, or millions, in Iraq, going to solve the problem? There are 270 million Islamics in the ME region.

If this is your proposition,

your point #1) Short-term - Get rid of the threats by going after the ones who want to hurt us now.. is not even close to being achieved, if the WHOLE DAMN CIVILIZATION wants to hurt us.

But, the fact that you have Point #2) Long-term - Change their way of thinking before it builds into such a threat that by the time you realize it's at your door, it's way too late... suggests that you believe that their culture can be changed.

How are we going to change it? By invading a country based upon false pretenses, and then occuying it indefinitely? How is that going to change the culture and religion of the Middle East? Do you think by invading on false pretenses they are encouraged to start a democracy? That by causing the deaths of tens of thousands of Muslems they are going to decide to change their culture? That by forceably occupying Iraq for an indefinite period we are convincing them they should do things our way? That by locking people away without charges or trials we are going to convince them of the the benefits of a committment to human rights? That by setting up a few elections we are going to convince them to give up their evil ways and copy our enlightened culture of McDondalds' and porn shops?
 

Iriemon

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
19,405
Reaction score
2,187
Location
Miami
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
GySgt said:
...A successful Iraq may prove to be more influential to these countries than people think. Time will tell, but we have every reason to believe that the natural will of freedom will spread beyond Iraq's borders. This does not mean that we will directly be involved with this beyond Iraq. I believe that Syria and Iran have the capacity to change, where Iraq did not. Iraq was very important to encourage this, because "if Saddam's Iraq can change, then surely we can too." In the end, ultimate success or failure will be on their shoulders. Islam in the Middle East can only be fixed by Muslims. All we did was provide the bicycle. It's up to them to remove the training wheels.


-I study this stuff constantly.
Why is a "successful Iraq" (which mean a demoncracy? A market economy?) going to inspire the rest of the ME? Heck they can look at our culture and see the benefit of freedoms and a market economy: fast food and porn shops. If that hasn't inspired them to try our system already, why would you think a democratic Iraq will?

And in the meantime, do you think we are winning lots of Muslems to our cause with and indefinite occupation of a Muslem country in a war were scores of Muslems are dying daily? Do you think after invading Iraq on false pretenses and then indefinitely occupying it, the Muslems around the world are looking at what we are doing in Iraq and thinking: Allah bless those Americans, they are a good and honest people, their dedication to human rights is inspiring, we should applaud them and make our country like them?
 

dragonslayer

Counselor
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
1,856
Reaction score
139
Location
Pacific Northwest, Oregon
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
GySgt said:
Very well said. The bigger picture escapes most still. I don't believe it is that they can't get it. I believe that they just don't want it to exist so they refuse to acknowledge it. They want to believe that World Wars are a thing of the past...they're wrong. There is a clash of civilizations coming that will result in another World War and so far only America and a few allies are trying to prevent it. Why? Because this enemy is trying to destroy us...not Europe. Even in our own country, we have our own people parading around political BS instead of standing strong. These would be the same people that didn't know anything about this threat before Bush came along and carefully presented it to them as best a President on international TV can without hurting diplomatic ties for our oil. Were it not for our need for oil, we would have not had to ***** foot around with the "House of Saud" for so long as they use us as a scapegoat to oppress their people into desperate fanaticism. There is nothing new about this threat. Like I've said before, this could have easily been Clinton if he listened to the experts that have been studying this since the Reagan era instead of just making reports like Bush Sr. did.
Sorry guys, but your are just trying to cloud the truth. Bush and Cheney is a mad dog regime that is causing more terrorism than we had before, curing nothing. Wasting Billions for the Exxon in Iraq, at the expense of the American tax payer. this war is all about Profits for the already rich.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
23,722
Reaction score
8,409
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Iriemon said:
Why is a "successful Iraq" (which mean a demoncracy? A market economy?) going to inspire the rest of the ME? Heck they can look at our culture and see the benefit of freedoms and a market economy: fast food and porn shops. If that hasn't inspired them to try our system already, why would you think a democratic Iraq will?

And in the meantime, do you think we are winning lots of Muslems to our cause with and indefinite occupation of a Muslem country in a war were scores of Muslems are dying daily? Do you think after invading Iraq on false pretenses and then indefinitely occupying it, the Muslems around the world are looking at what we are doing in Iraq and thinking: Allah bless those Americans, they are a good and honest people, their dedication to human rights is inspiring, we should applaud them and make our country like them?

Because a Democratic Iraq is in the Middle East. This is a place where only Israel enjoys this freedom. No Muslim country has ever been allowed to vote for their own freedoms and government. It's easy to envy something that is an ocean away. Iraq is next door and proves that this is possible. Freedom is not just for Americans and Jews in Israel. By the way...there are Muslims that live in Israel also that enjoy said freedoms under that banner.

They'll do what they want. We will not remain there. When we leave, they will suceed or fail. If they fail, it say's more on this civilization than about American might. The goal is not to bring a victory just through Iraq and not with current adherents to the local Islam. The goal is the youth of future generations that will not be subjected to the hate their parents were raised with. This hate comes from their corrupt governments and their oppressions.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
23,722
Reaction score
8,409
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
dragonslayer said:
Sorry guys, but your are just trying to cloud the truth. Bush and Cheney is a mad dog regime that is causing more terrorism than we had before, curing nothing. Wasting Billions for the Exxon in Iraq, at the expense of the American tax payer. this war is all about Profits for the already rich.
And this is why, the Middle East is what it is today. We have looked the other way and denied that there was a problem. As long as the oil flowed, we didn't care how oppressed they were or what they were preached.

Read. There is a wealth of knowledge written long before Bush came along.
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Iriemon said:
...not realizing that war has been proclaimed years earlier by the WHOLE DAMN CIVILIZATION...

Is what you are essentially asserting (if I am not mistaken) is that the entire Islamic culture are utlimately terrorists? If so, how is killing a few tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, or millions, in Iraq, going to solve the problem? There are 270 million Islamics in the ME region.

If this is your proposition,

your point #1) Short-term - Get rid of the threats by going after the ones who want to hurt us now.. is not even close to being achieved, if the WHOLE DAMN CIVILIZATION wants to hurt us.

But, the fact that you have Point #2) Long-term - Change their way of thinking before it builds into such a threat that by the time you realize it's at your door, it's way too late... suggests that you believe that their culture can be changed.

How are we going to change it? By invading a country based upon false pretenses, and then occuying it indefinitely? How is that going to change the culture and religion of the Middle East? Do you think by invading on false pretenses they are encouraged to start a democracy? That by causing the deaths of tens of thousands of Muslems they are going to decide to change their culture? That by forceably occupying Iraq for an indefinite period we are convincing them they should do things our way? That by locking people away without charges or trials we are going to convince them of the the benefits of a committment to human rights? That by setting up a few elections we are going to convince them to give up their evil ways and copy our enlightened culture of McDondalds' and porn shops?
Religion is only an excuse...it is being used as a tool and is not the reasons themselves...Why you choose to refer to them all as Muslims is baffling...More Muslims live outside of the Middle East...AND peacefully...than inside it...Take a look through recent history and notice how many different sects of Islam have been killing each other.

Your "false pretenses" and "trials" comments are EXACTLY the kind of small things to harp on when you refuse to see the "big picture"...

You want everything to be done in such a perfect and politically correct way that anything that fails to show us in a "perfect light" or done in ten minutes isn't worth doing...The world of the remote control strikes again...

The death being caused now is a fraction...repeat...a fraction of what would come without our "occupation"...Your post is a wonderful example of the "path of least resistance" I spoke of earlier...

"Mommy, It's tooooo tough and there are too many problems!"...Oh Please...
 

mixedmedia

iniquitably employed
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
6,823
Reaction score
373
Location
Naples, FL
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
GySgt said:
Iran's population is 70 percent youth under thirty years old and they do not agree with their Mullah's sense of theocracy.
It is ironic that, after decades of animosity, the fate of Iran could determine our own, right? It used to seem that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict would be the proving ground for a peace in the middle east, but now increasingly it seems to be coming down to Iran. Americans underestimate the people of Iran. And I regret all this emphasis on nuclear programs and mouthy mullahs and politicians, because they DO NOT represent the will of the Iranian people. I believe Iran can transform itself without an American shot fired - and THAT WILL BE a powerful enough impetus for change in the region. A democratic Iraq? Eh, that's one thing. But a democratic Iran? Now that would truly be a seriously pivotal turn of events.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
23,722
Reaction score
8,409
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
mixedmedia said:
It is ironic that, after decades of animosity, the fate of Iran could determine our own, right? It used to seem that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict would be the proving ground for a peace in the middle east, but now increasingly it seems to be coming down to Iran. Americans underestimate the people of Iran. And I regret all this emphasis on nuclear programs and mouthy mullahs and politicians, because they DO NOT represent the will of the Iranian people. I believe Iran can transform itself without an American shot fired - and THAT WILL BE a powerful enough impetus for change in the region. A democratic Iraq? Eh, that's one thing. But a democratic Iran? Now that would truly be a seriously pivotal turn of events.
My sentiments exactly. Iran has everything going for them to provide for themselves. This is why I think a successful Iraq will influence more than people think. Our means and the way we got there might have been less than honorable, but some really great things could come from it. Our direct involvement is nowhere near necessary. Of course, with this current government in place, we will not afford them the opportunity to develop their means to their leader's comments.

It makes you wonder where we would be if we had done something in Iran during the whole hostage crisis and took out Khomeini back then. Better or worse, there sure would have been a difference. Arguments could be made for both.
 
Last edited:

mixedmedia

iniquitably employed
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
6,823
Reaction score
373
Location
Naples, FL
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
GySgt said:
My sentiments exactly. Iran has everything going for them to provide for themselves. Our direct involvement is nowhere near necessary. Of course, with this current government in place, we will not afford them the opportunity to develop their means to their leader's comments.

It makes you wonder where we would be if we had done something in Iran during the whole hostage crisis and took out Khomeini back then. Better or worse, there sure would have been a difference. Arguments could be made for both.
From what I've read about the revolution though, it was made up of fundamentalists and socialists, aligned in the beginning - which side do you suppose America might have taken up with in the early Reagan years? Commies ain't the first group that comes to mind, lol.

Of course, those of them THAT ARE LEFT, might turn out to be, if not our allies, then our best bet. Iran's best bet.
 
Top Bottom