Washington high school coach placed on leave for praying on field

[Hatuey]

I'm dying to see if the ACLU takes this one on. They should. This to me is a direct violation of his Constitutional rights. I can see if he forced these kids into this. But there is nothing to indicate that he did, so this looks like a pretty clear case of the school denying his Constitutional right. I hope he sues the pants off them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abington_School_District_v._Schempp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_Independent_School_District_v._Doe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_v._Vitale
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_v._Weisman

In short, the courts have ruled this way: There is no issue with students having their own prayers, etc. It's a different matter when a school official does it in their capacity as a school official. The collection of cases in similar matters have established this as a fact. If he was offered accommodations to pray in, and he refused, he has even less ground to stand on.

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

Public universities receiving public funds:





It happens every Saturday.

 

[Crosscheck]

Why does he have to walk out to mid-field? The sideline prayers cannot be heard by Jesus?

Best post among a pile of repetitive chanting postings.

It isn't that Jesus can't hear him on the sidelines, it is so he can draw everyone's attention to himself.

Prayer isn't prohibited in school. Everytime there is a math test you know there are some silent prayers being made.

 

[Moderate Right]

Can't say, "Merry Christmas "because it might offend someone. Pretty soon we won't be able to sing the national anthem at sporting events. I thought this was supposed to be a nation of tolerance. We're supposed to be tolerant of gays and numerous religions but gays don't have to be tolerant of someone's religious beliefs and different religions don't have to be tolerant of us saying "Merry Christmas" or praying at schools and football games. I guess tolerance is just a one way street.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

I have an advanced degree in leadership. I know how to utilize people's strength's to advance a common cause and overcome narrow mindedness and pettiness.

It appears you have much to learn.

Really? I'm sure Dick Cheney would probably have the same opinion about himself...but that wouldn't make him a good leader.

I've known quite a few senior Navy officers in my time (one who went on to work directly for Cheney, strangely enough) - and from day one, officers are taught how to lead. Thing is, one can learn reams about leadership, yet still be clueless about how to be a good leader. It's a lot like painting - you can learn all there is to know about painting, but that doesn't mean you should be allowed anywhere near a canvas, that you still could only be trusted with painting a house. Leadership's the same way - no matter how well you know the mechanics and principles, if you aren't able to apply them as a true artist applies that paint brush to a canvas, then you'll never be a good leader.

Personally, I don't enjoy being the leader...but I do know what it feels like to be directly responsible for the careers and the lives of my subordinates. I know the joy of guiding them to advance and to succeed...but I also know what it feels like to be the one ending their careers - two of whom were my friends, one of whom was my neighbor. More than once I've laid my career on the line to help someone else - not because I didn't care about my career, but because it was the right thing to do...and it took me a long time to realize that it was precisely that idealism that kept me from being more successful as a leader. But you know what? To me, remaining true to myself is far more important than power over others...

...and I've seen too many "leaders" for whom power was an end that justified any means.

So...please don't try to intimidate me with your "advanced degree" in leadership. You may well have precisely that and good on you, I'm honestly happy for you...but don't try to tell me that what you were taught makes you a good leader. It doesn't.

 

[Alyssa T.]

Can't say, "Merry Christmas "because it might offend someone. Pretty soon we won't be able to sing the national anthem at sporting events. I thought this was supposed to be a nation of tolerance. We're supposed to be tolerant of gays and numerous religions but gays don't have to be tolerant of someone's religious beliefs and different religions don't have to be tolerant of us saying "Merry Christmas" or praying at schools and football games. I guess tolerance is just a one way street.

I must have missed something, but who said you can't say "Merry Christmas?" Can we still say "Happy New Year," or did that one change too when I wasn't paying attention. Gotta know these things with the season coming up and all.

 

[Moon]

There are 30-40 kids surrounding him. He's leading a public prayer of the players.



You have no idea what if any pressure was exerted on the players, directly or indirectly. He's in a public school leading a prayer service. He's in a position of authority, and can influence who does and doesn't play and how much, so in this case AND ALL THE OTHER THOUSANDS OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS, there is a great deal of potential for kids feeling pressured to participate as a condition of being a part of the team.

As I said, I don't put this high on the list of my worries, but we're discussing it and IMO it's not appropriate. If the kids want to do it, that's fine. If he wants to go out alone and spend a minute or two or three by himself in private prayer on the 50 yard line where everyone in the stands can observe his religiosity, fantastic.

I know he's been doing this for years, and people have joined, or not, as they chose. If you have any evidence of any coercion or pressure, please provide it. Otherwise, just be happy you live in a place that still enjoys such freedoms, though it sounds like if you get your way, freedoms like this will be a thing of the past.

 

[Frank Apisa]

There's nothing wrong with praying. I never said that was the case.

None of us have.

He can "pray" all he wants.

He should not do it in the center of a football field where the players he coaches can be intimidated into having to join him.

I don't think some of these people get that.

 

[Frank Apisa]

The coach did not overtly or explicitly pressure anyone...but his actions IMPLICITLY pressured the students to join in. If you don't get this, then you've a lot to learn about leading people.

Exactly!

 

[Frank Apisa]

I have an advanced degree in leadership. I know how to utilize people's strength's to advance a common cause and overcome narrow mindedness and pettiness.

It appears you have much to learn.

Think about what you just wrote!

The coach apparently knows how to utilize people to advance a cause.

That is what some of us are objecting to.

Perhaps it is you who has much to learn.

 

[Frank Apisa]

I know he's been doing this for years, and people have joined, or not, as they chose. If you have any evidence of any coercion or pressure, please provide it. Otherwise, just be happy you live in a place that still enjoys such freedoms, though it sounds like if you get your way, freedoms like this will be a thing of the past.

You just do not get the nature of subtle coercion, Moon.

Under any circumstances...he was asked to stop the public display; he didn't; a penalty was exacted.

Justice on all sides.

 

[CMPancake]

None of us have.

This was in response to American who was most likely under the assumption I had in issue with prayer after sports games.

He can "pray" all he wants.

I agree.

He should not do it in the center of a football field where the players he coaches can be intimidated into having to join him.

It's been stressed throughout the article that the coach doesn't force or coerce his players to join him in prayer. Do you have anything that can actually support your claim that the players felt pressured to join the coach in prayer

I don't think some of these people get that.

Sadly if there's anyone out of the loop, it is the people who suggest a coach should lose his job for whispering sweet nothings to his sky daddy.

 

[Frank Apisa]

It's been stressed throughout the article that the coach doesn't force or coerce his players to join him in prayer.

The fact that he goes out to the center of the football field in full view of the attendees and "prays"...IS coercive on young people.

Young people are often "coerced" subtly by peers, CM...what on Earth would make you think they would not be uber coerced by a coach who has authority over them...who assigns playing time...who chooses starting assignments...and by the reaction of the people in the stands to anyone not willing to join in the hoping going on in the center of the field.

The amount of coercion here is enormous!

Do you have anything that can actually support your claim that the players felt pressured to join the coach in prayer.

Do you mean besides the common sense nature gave me...and the fact that I can think?

Sadly if there's anyone out of the loop, it is the people who suggest a coach should lose his job for whispering sweet nothings to his sky daddy.

He was not penalized for "praying"...he was penalized for not following the schools rules.

 

[Crovax]

Apparently it violates school policy.

So you think school policy can override the 1st amendment?

 

[CMPancake]

The fact that he goes out to the center of the football field in full view of the attendees and "prays"...IS coercive on young people.

That's your opinion.

Young people are often "coerced" subtly by peers, CM...

Sure, but as stated in the article the students joined on their own accord. They even interviewed players and confirmed this. Your continued speculation that the students were somehow forced into these prayer circles is unfounded nonsense.

what on Earth would make you think they would not be uber coerced by a coach who has authority over them...

I have my reasons to believe that the students didn't pray against their will because several students have claimed they do so willingly.

who assigns playing time...who chooses starting assignments...

If you're suggesting the coach provides incentive for players to join him in prayer we will need to see something to validate these suspicions.

and by the reaction of the people in the stands to anyone not willing to join in the hoping going on in the center of the field.

What?

The amount of coercion here is enormous!

Odd, I watched this video of the coach praying at the 50 yard line and I didn't feel the need to pray. The same can be said for when I was in high school when they had prayer circles before games.

Do you mean besides the common sense nature gave me...and the fact that I can think?

You have plenty of assumptions about the personal dynamic between the players and coaches at a Washington high school but until you can at least provide testimony that a player felt he was forced to join in on a huddle to thank god for watching over them instead of the starving children in Africa.

He was not penalized for "praying"...he was penalized for not following the schools rules.

A school rule that specifically stated he wasn't allowed to pray in public on public school grounds. The argument isn't whether or not the Coach violated school policy but rather is the coach allowed to pray on school grounds after football games?

 

[Alyssa T.]

So you think school policy can override the 1st amendment?

Why not? Doesn't school policy override the 2nd?

 

[Frank Apisa]

That's your opinion.



Sure, but as stated in the article the students joined on their own accord. They even interviewed players and confirmed this. Your continued speculation that the students were somehow forced into these prayer circles is unfounded nonsense.



I have my reasons to believe that the students didn't pray against their will because several students have claimed they do so willingly.



If you're suggesting the coach provides incentive for players to join him in prayer we will need to see something to validate these suspicions.




What?



Odd, I watched this video of the coach praying at the 50 yard line and I didn't feel the need to pray. The same can be said for when I was in high school when they had prayer circles before games.



You have plenty of assumptions about the personal dynamic between the players and coaches at a Washington high school but until you can at least provide testimony that a player felt he was forced to join in on a huddle to thank god for watching over them instead of the starving children in Africa.



A school rule that specifically stated he wasn't allowed to pray in public on public school grounds. The argument isn't whether or not the Coach violated school policy but rather is the coach allowed to pray on school grounds after football games?

The school has policy; he was warned he was violating that policy; he continued to violate it; he was suspended.

You have a problem with that...take it up with the school.

I do not think they suspended him for praying...I think they suspended him for violating a policy they established for their employees.

If you have a problem with that...

...tough.

 

[Montecresto]

So you think school policy can override the 1st amendment?

All of our liberties have restrictions upon them. I don't believe you can exercise your second amendment right at school either. Btw, just because I pointed out that this action was legal because it was consistent with school policy, does not necessarily mean that I like the policy. The far right is always keen to pointing out that the law is the law and as such you must follow it. If you don't like it, then work to change it. That's usually your argument when you like the law though. Have the decency to acknowledge that the coaches dismissal is not the issue here being it was consistent with school policy, and that it's the schools policy you have issue with and then see what you can do to effect that.

 

[blackjack50]

There is no requirement that someone be comfortable when someone else is exercising a right. If that were the standard, then there could be no public discourse at all for fear of making some feel uncomfortable.

We are given freedom OF religion (or lack thereof). Not freedom FROM religion.

 

[Alyssa T.]

The school has policy; he was warned he was violating that policy; he continued to violate it; he was suspended.

You have a problem with that...take it up with the school.

I do not think they suspended him for praying...I think they suspended him for violating a policy they established for their employees.

If you have a problem with that...

...tough.

Yep, this is what I said yesterday and got a lecture on the First Amendment. We'll see what happens here. I think some people just want to be upset about prayer, and not the specific situation.

 

[Paleocon]

Oh, the persecution!!! When will it end?



Of course, the ever vigilant Liberty Institute is on the case, threatening dire consequences for the school district if they continue this suppression of the coach's religious beliefs and actions.

Those of other faiths are now demanding that they also be allowed to lead prayers on the playing field

Funny how these Christians who insist on praying in public seem to ignore Matthew 6:5-6 when they rant about how they are being persecuted when they are told to "take it home"

It's interesting how terrified atheists are of prayer.

 

[blackjack50]

All of our liberties have restrictions upon them. I don't believe you can exercise your second amendment right at school either. Btw, just because I pointed out that this action was legal because it was consistent with school policy, does not necessarily mean that I like the policy. The far right is always keen to pointing out that the law is the law and as such you must follow it. If you don't like it, then work to change it. That's usually your argument when you like the law though. Have the decency to acknowledge that the coaches dismissal is not the issue here being it was consistent with school policy, and that it's the schools policy you have issue with and then see what you can do to effect that.

The dismissal is 100% the issue. Telling someone they can't pray because they are an employee is 100% unconstitutional and far beyond ANY restriction that could be placed on freedom of religion. In fact...i would argue it is the state respecting the lack of religion. Period.

Whoever dismissed the coach should be fired and the district sued.

 

[blackjack50]

The school has policy; he was warned he was violating that policy; he continued to violate it; he was suspended.

You have a problem with that...take it up with the school.

I do not think they suspended him for praying...I think they suspended him for violating a policy they established for their employees.

If you have a problem with that...

...tough.

A policy that is unconstitutional. A policy that respects a lack of religion. A government entity cannot make a policy that bans someone from praying. Firing him or dismissing him based on that policy is wrong and unconstitutional. Period. The policy is unconstitutional. Period.

 

[blackjack50]

Being punished for praying. There is "no war on Christians" but plenty of support for banning them from practicing their faith in view of others. Fire them for praying. This is despicable.

 

[Frank Apisa]

It's interesting how terrified atheists are of prayer.

I doubt any atheist is "terrified" of prayer.

I'm not an atheist.

But here is how I feel about prayer:

Every priest, minister, rabbi, imam, monk, nun on this planet is constantly "praying" for peace...and it is a commodity in very short supply.

Why do you think that is?



I know people say prayer can move mountains.

So...I say we have a contest...the agnostic way. All the priests, ministers, rabbis, imams, monks, nuns, and religious people you can gather pray that a small hill on the golf course where I work move...and I will furnish a girl scout with a teaspoon.

We'll see whether the prayer or the girl scout moves more of the "mountain."

How do you think that would work out?