Was "Global collapse truly inevitable"?

[SanderO]

You can't even get his name right and then you want to deflect it about qualifications when it was YOU who brought him up in the first place.

What matters IS whatever SanderO says, regardless of what really IS.

psik

I forget his name... what's the point? I mentioned the columns size is known and from that you can compute the facade column sizes. Nothing to do with anyone's qualifications.

I don't have any qualifications...

 

[Thoreau72]

Oh, you have certain qualifications Jeffrey, no doubt.

 

[psikeyhackr]

I forget his name... what's the point? I mentioned the columns size is known and from that you can compute the facade column sizes. Nothing to do with anyone's qualifications.

I don't have any qualifications...

You can make ASSUMPTIONS about facade columns sizes based on the core but that is all.

It is not too bad an assumption but still an assumption.

Gregory Urich made an assumption based on linear weight distribution. Why should we make assumptions? Why haven't physicists and structural engineers made a massive demand for the data? An article from 1970 said the heaviest panel was 20 tons. That contradicted Gragory Urich's assumption. He called it a Red Herring when I pointed it out.

No we are all supposed to just BELIEVE!

psik

 

[SanderO]

You can make ASSUMPTIONS about facade columns sizes based on the core but that is all.

It is not too bad an assumption but still an assumption.

Gregory Urich made an assumption based on linear weight distribution. Why should we make assumptions? Why haven't physicists and structural engineers made a massive demand for the data? An article from 1970 said the heaviest panel was 20 tons. That contradicted Gragory Urich's assumption. He called it a Red Herring when I pointed it out.

No we are all supposed to just BELIEVE!

psik

Hang on....

Yes I am assuming the core column sizes are correct and based on that the facade columns can be computed. because of the load distribution between the core and the facade.

Having said that... virtually all the columns.. aside from in the strike zone and where the fire burned broke apart from Euler buckling and jostling from the floor collapse breaking the connections. The actual weights and cross section had nothing to do with their failure. NO COLUMNS WERE CRUSHED - Look at the debris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And the bracing hardly matters because from the debris you can see that it too was ripped off by the collapsing floor debris.

So whatever caused the tops to break free and drop... in the case of 1WTC it would be like having a 15 (or so) story building drop on top of another building ... and that was more than enough force to bust the floors and bracing from the columns. No floor in an office building is capable of supporting 15 floors dropping on it. And that's what happened and continued to the ground... right passed the columns.... You noticed the surviving core after the floor collapse and all the facade panels laying about having fallen away.

What collapsed was the floors. Open you eyes.

 

[Kat Dorman]

NO COLUMNS WERE CRUSHED - Look at the debris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You were there the last time psikeyhackr was reminded of the fact that typical column deformation was negligible. You see where that went. He presented evidence of two severely deformed columns, I presented evidence of hundreds of mildly deformed columns (some of which fell upwards of 1000ft!). What is his response? That I only showed less than 5% of the columns!!! :lamo

 

[psikeyhackr]

What collapsed was the floors. Open you eyes.

You can't find a square yard vaguely resembling an intact piece of floor in the debris. They could not find a telephone, a computer or a crushed filing cabinet. They only found the remains of one the size of a basketball.

Melted Metal Filing Cabinet at the WTC - Video Dailymotion

How did the north tower come down in less than 30 seconds?

Explain how collapsing floors could make it happen that fast.

Get a brain!

psik

 

[Kat Dorman]

You can't find a square yard vaguely resembling an intact piece of floor in the debris.

So what? Wouldn't you expect a floor collapse to cause damage mainly to - FLOORS? :lamo

You can't find more than a handful of severely deformed columns. Actually, you found two and I found the rest for you. Pathetic. Let's see... floors and their contents crushed, columns not crushed... what does that suggest?

Nothing bigger than a basketball, my ass. Did you see the acres of largely intact perimeter trees I linked for you? Guess people's beliefs govern what they can and can't see right in front of them.

 

[ozeco41]

What collapsed was the floors. Open you eyes.

Sander (and Kat) be aware that Psikey has been informed about what we now call ROOSD since early 2008 - before M_T and femr coined that label for the process.

It was explained to him in detail many times from early 2008 onwards. And not just as "ROOSD" - but in the full "Three Mechanisms" complete version minus the core strip down explanatory sub-hypothesis.

Cheers.

 

[Kat Dorman]

Sander (and Kat) be aware that Psikey has been informed about what we now call ROOSD since early 2008 - before M_T and femr coined that label for the process.

Makes it even worse. His skill is in keeping intelligent people engaged in arguing the same tired stuff forever and ever, and hoodwinking the gullible in the process. He is perceived as a physicist by HD, and says nothing to dispel that belief. When's the last time you heard a physicist say "potential energy is a delusion"?

psikeyhackr's preferred mode of argumentation.

 

[SanderO]

Oh, you have certahttp://www.ted.com/in qualifications Jeffrey, no doubt.

If being an architect makes me qualified.. perhaps... but I am not a scientist nor do I design steel high rise buildings. One doesn't have to be too smart... just logical with a decent education in science.

 

[psikeyhackr]

So what? Wouldn't you expect a floor collapse to cause damage mainly to - FLOORS? :lamo

With 177,000 square yards of floor supposedly falling on top of each other I would expect a few square yards to be lying around, yes.

You can't find more than a handful of severely deformed columns. Actually, you found two and I found the rest for you. Pathetic. Let's see... floors and their contents crushed, columns not crushed... what does that suggest?

When was I looking for deformed columns? I don't know what qualifies as "severe" versus not. I recall your asking me about some percentage and I declined to think in terms of your assumption.

Nothing bigger than a basketball, my ass.

Where did I say any such thing? I was talking about the one filing cabinet that was found and provided a link to a video.

So you strategy is to put words in people's mouths and then accuse them of saying stupid things?

psik

 

[SanderO]

With 177,000 square yards of floor supposedly falling on top of each other I would expect a few square yards to be lying around, yes.



When was I looking for deformed columns? I don't know what qualifies as "severe" versus not. I recall your asking me about some percentage and I declined to think in terms of your assumption.



Where did I say any such thing? I was talking about the one filing cabinet that was found and provided a link to a video.

So you strategy is to put words in people's mouths and then accuse them of saying stupid things?

psik

How much of your furniture would be recognizable if 400,000 tons of building fell on it from as much as 1200 feet high?

 

[Menard_K]

How much of your furniture would be recognizable if 400,000 tons of building fell on it from as much as 1200 feet high?

So all 400,000 tons of material fell down upon each & every stick of furniture in the WTC .... or?

 

[psikeyhackr]

How much of your furniture would be recognizable if 400,000 tons of building fell on it from as much as 1200 feet high?

Wasn't there furniture throughout the building? So wouldn't a lot of it have a lot less mass to fall on top of it?

Shouldn't a filing cabinet be recognizable as a filing cabinet not matter how flattened?

Joe Casaliggi - YouTube

But they couldn't find door knobs. What sense does that make?

psik

 

[SanderO]

So all 400,000 tons of material fell down upon each & every stick of furniture in the WTC .... or?

Try to imagine...

You and your furniture are on floor 7 and the 103 floors above come crashing down...

You pick how they come... 103 slabs equal to a sold block of concrete 32 feet x 208x208 (ouch)

or

chunks of slabs of small bits down to rock and sand size

or

a mass of 208x204x40' of sand

Coming down in the slab above you....

What's left?

 

[Menard_K]

Try to imagine...

You and your furniture are on floor 7 and the 103 floors above come crashing down...

You pick how they come... 103 slabs equal to a sold block of concrete 32 feet x 208x208 (ouch)

or

chunks of slabs of small bits down to rock and sand size

or

a mass of 208x204x40' of sand

Coming down in the slab above you....

What's left?

Note the experiment by the "TOP GEAR" guys
where they placed a Toyota pick-up truck on top of a building that was to be demolished.
the truck survived to drive away. I cite this bit because near the top of the north tower
there was a completely furnished dining room & kitchen and ALL of that stuff is missing,
in the final rubble pile..... WHY?

 

[SanderO]

Wasn't there furniture throughout the building? So wouldn't a lot of it have a lot less mass to fall on top of it?

Shouldn't a filing cabinet be recognizable as a filing cabinet not matter how flattened?

Joe Casaliggi - YouTube

But they couldn't find door knobs. What sense does that make?

psik

Door knobs are not very robust... they got beat up in the avalanche of 400,000 tons of materials

 

[SanderO]

Note the experiment by the "TOP GEAR" guys
where they placed a Toyota pick-up truck on top of a building that was to be demolished.
the truck survived to drive away. I cite this bit because near the top of the north tower
there was a completely furnished dining room & kitchen and ALL of that stuff is missing,
in the final rubble pile..... WHY?

got ground up in the avalanche of 400,000 tons I suppose...

 

[SanderO]

Note the experiment by the "TOP GEAR" guys
where they placed a Toyota pick-up truck on top of a building that was to be demolished.
the truck survived to drive away. I cite this bit because near the top of the north tower
there was a completely furnished dining room & kitchen and ALL of that stuff is missing,
in the final rubble pile..... WHY?

Maybe the roof was different? IN a 1400 foot avalanche do you expect a perfect layering of the debris? or perhaps a bit of mixing? or a lot of mixing?

How do you know how little or how much mixing there should be?

 

[psikeyhackr]

Door knobs are not very robust... they got beat up in the avalanche of 400,000 tons of materials

Sure, all of the door knobs were on the 1st floor.

psik

 

[SanderO]

Sure, all of the door knobs were on the 1st floor.

psik

They don't have to be.... there was mixing lots of grinding and how do you know how many doors there were and whether there were bashed up ones found? They did have open office plans... No? How many door knobs you think there were? And why do you care about door knobs?

Does a CD (of the NT or the explosive demolition) destroy door knobs?

What destroys door knobs?

And why do you care about door knobs?

 

[Menard_K]

They don't have to be.... there was mixing lots of grinding and how do you know how many doors there were and whether there were bashed up ones found? They did have open office plans... No? How many door knobs you think there were? And why do you care about door knobs?

Does a CD (of the NT or the explosive demolition) destroy door knobs?

What destroys door knobs?

And why do you care about door knobs?

The perfection of the operation is the key, if one where to have simply dropped the kitchen gear from the top of one of the towers, there would be seriously damaged, but still recognizable objects at the bottom, HOWEVER in the case of the collapse of the tower(s) .... the vast majority of things ranging from doorknobs to desks & refrigerators, stoves, steel counter-tops ( etc ..... ) ALL have been ground up, pulverized, destroyed by the big grinder that was all that rubble.
WHY the completeness of destruction? Two 110 story office towers and not one desk, or chair or telephone in all that rubble. WHY? Please give it some thought .....

 

[mike2810]

The perfection of the operation is the key, if one where to have simply dropped the kitchen gear from the top of one of the towers, there would be seriously damaged, but still recognizable objects at the bottom, HOWEVER in the case of the collapse of the tower(s) .... the vast majority of things ranging from doorknobs to desks & refrigerators, stoves, steel counter-tops ( etc ..... ) ALL have been ground up, pulverized, destroyed by the big grinder that was all that rubble.
WHY the completeness of destruction? Two 110 story office towers and not one desk, or chair or telephone in all that rubble. WHY? Please give it some thought .....

you are not telling the truth MK. There were objects like cell phones, shoes, keys, etc, that have been pulled from the rubble that are very recognizable.

I would provide a link, but you need to learn how to research before posting your favorite talking points from whatever source you get them from.:mrgreen:

 

[Menard_K]

you are not telling the truth MK. There were objects like cell phones, shoes, keys, etc, that have been pulled from the rubble that are very recognizable.

I would provide a link, but you need to learn how to research before posting your favorite talking points from whatever source you get them from.:mrgreen:

Small object such as cell-phones or keys, right, where is the furniture & cooking gear from the restaurant? ALL PULVERIZED by the big grinder that was the mass of rubble .... THINK! How is it that the rubble could form such a perfect grinder that ALL of the furniture, copy machines ( etc.... ) got ground to powder? & not to mention the total destruction of the tower in the process. As per the Police & Fire investigations, total destruction is VERY suspicious & total destruction of 3 steel framed high-rise structures on the same day is VERY VERY VERY SUSPICIOUS.

 

[mike2810]

Small object such as cell-phones or keys, right, where is the furniture & cooking gear from the restaurant? ALL PULVERIZED by the big grinder that was the mass of rubble .... THINK! How is it that the rubble could form such a perfect grinder that ALL of the furniture, copy machines ( etc.... ) got ground to powder? & not to mention the total destruction of the tower in the process. As per the Police & Fire investigations, total destruction is VERY suspicious & total destruction of 3 steel framed high-rise structures on the same day is VERY VERY VERY SUSPICIOUS.

It has been shown you do not know what your talking about. Objects survived, you then want more. Well lay out your case of what happened. We all know you can't back it up. Very Suspicious.

You stated your a vet. I doubt that , prove it.