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War on Terror is bogus [#2]

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daedalus77

Re: War on Terror is bogus

all decisions create beneficiaries, right? we as individuals have to ask "who benefits from the wars in the middle east?" only then do we begin to identify the real motives for these wars. hopefully, the realization will be that the common american has nothing to do with this fiasco by big businesses. we, the common american, have nothing to gain by sending our childeren to die in some rediculus political agend.
 

Pacridge

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Re: War on Terror is bogus

daedalus77 said:
all decisions create beneficiaries, right? we as individuals have to ask "who benefits from the wars in the middle east?" only then do we begin to identify the real motives for these wars. hopefully, the realization will be that the common american has nothing to do with this fiasco by big businesses. we, the common american, have nothing to gain by sending our childeren to die in some rediculus political agend.
Welcome to Debate Politics!
 

GPS_Flex

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Re: War on Terror is bogus

daedalus77 said:
all decisions create beneficiaries, right?
No. That’s another topic altogether though isn’t it? For the sake of argument, I’ll pretend to accept your claim for now.



daedalus77 said:
we as individuals have to ask "who benefits from the wars in the middle east?" only then do we begin to identify the real motives for these wars.
Ok, who benefits from the wars in the Middle East?


daedalus77 said:
hopefully, the realization will be that the common american has nothing to do with this fiasco by big businesses.
I’m sorry but you just changed the subject. You went from a person asking honest questions to a person making biased assumptions in one sentence. What about all the meat in the middle you so conveniently chose to bypass?

daedalus77 said:
we, the common american, have nothing to gain by sending our childeren to die in some rediculus political agend.
Not so. I have much to gain from it and it has noting to do with my stock holdings or for whom I work.

Does this make me an exception to your rule or am I some sort of an annomily you discard from your studies because I don’t fit your desired response?
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Re: War on Terror is bogus

What is it you have to gain?
 

Turenne

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Re: War on Terror is bogus

daedalus77 said:
hopefully, the realization will be that the common american has nothing to do with this fiasco by big businesses.
Illogical Liberal Conspiracy Theory #569.No this war has nothing to do with 'big business'.Stupid as the invasion no doubt is and no matter how much Chomsky you have read,US foreign policy isn't based around the whims of 'big business'.
 

beautymrgn

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Re: War on Terror is bogus

"who benefits from the wars in the middle east?"
Who doesn't?
 

Kelzie

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Re: War on Terror is bogus

Turenne said:
Illogical Liberal Conspiracy Theory #569.No this war has nothing to do with 'big business'.Stupid as the invasion no doubt is and no matter how much Chomsky you have read,US foreign policy isn't based around the whims of 'big business'.
It isn't? Ever heard of the United Fruit Company and Guatemala? How much was Halliburton's various contracts for? And how much did we have to buy from various arms companies? Not saying that it's the only reason for the "War on Terror", but these mega-corporations have thousands of lobbyists at Capital Hill, some of whom make millions lobbying for the corporations.
 

PatriotSon

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Re: War on Terror is bogus

daedalus77 said:
all decisions create beneficiaries, right? we as individuals have to ask "who benefits from the wars in the middle east?" only then do we begin to identify the real motives for these wars. hopefully, the realization will be that the common american has nothing to do with this fiasco by big businesses. we, the common american, have nothing to gain by sending our childeren to die in some rediculus political agend.

Who benefits from this war? You do. I do. All Americans do. Combating terrorism is going to be the greatest challenge face by our children. Yes, I said our children. Religious fundamentalism has been allowed to flourish to a point where no matter where you look, you see it. All countries around the world have been affected by it to some degree. It will take decades to irradiate this evil from the earth. And it starts with education.

Right now in countries like, Iran, Syria, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia children are going to school and instead of learning math and science, literature and art, they’re learning how to be better Muslims. Every day they are taught religious fundamentalism, to hate western culture. They are lied to about the history of their own people, and are not afforded the opportunity to research it for themselves. Over the past 50+ years this had caused entire generations of Muslims to join the fight against the west.

You wonder why we are in Iraq. To me the question is quite simple. If we are to succeed in this war, if we are to win the day, we must reeducate the Muslim people. From the children on up. We must start teaching mathematics and art, and release the people from the chains of totalitarian religious governments. We will continue to fight an entire generation of terrorist while this process takes effect, but in the end the children will learn that the west is not a culture to be feared. That we are not a persecutor, or an occupier. We are an honorable and noble nation that is willing to send its sons and daughters to die so that a people could live free.

When this war is over, I want to be able to tell my children that I was on the side of freedom. I believed in the cause. And because of that, they can now live without fear of terrorist attack, or religious persecution.


"These are the times that try men's souls.
The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country;
but he that stands it now,
deserves the love and thanks of man and woman.
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered;
yet we have this consolation with us,
that the harder the conflict,
the more glorious the triumph.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods;
and it would be strange indeed,
if so celestial an article as Freedom
should not be highly rated."

-- Thomas Paine
 

PatriotSon

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That is a statement with no substantiating evidence. I didn’t say war would end terrorism. I said education would. I took several paragraphs to explain my position in detail, outlining my reasoning. You did nothing of the sort. So I will place you opinion with the rest of the mindless theories and unsubstantiated assertions that are common in the liberal thought processes.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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PatriotSon said:
That is a statement with no substantiating evidence. I didn’t say war would end terrorism. I said education would. I took several paragraphs to explain my position in detail, outlining my reasoning. You did nothing of the sort. So I will place you opinion with the rest of the mindless theories and unsubstantiated assertions that are common in the liberal thought processes.
The military will re-educated them? Last I heard these people already knew how to kill. That's what you're showing them. That's what you're teaching. "We're America. We're the greatest country on Earth and this is how we solve problems." Your cause is noble, but your methods will not produce the result that you desire. You want to end terrorism, well you're not going to do that by killing terrorists. You have to kill the things that cause people to turn to such methods and to accept such ideologies. Re-education is a great thing to preach, but when you pick up a gun you begin working backwards.
 

Turenne

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Re: War on Terror is bogus

Kelzie said:
It isn't? Ever heard of the United Fruit Company and Guatemala? How much was Halliburton's various contracts for? And how much did we have to buy from various arms companies? Not saying that it's the only reason for the "War on Terror", but these mega-corporations have thousands of lobbyists at Capital Hill, some of whom make millions lobbying for the corporations.
Your missing the point.Guatamala had to do with communism not business,just like Iran 1953 had nothing to do with oil.How those Haliburton's actions directly infleunce US foreign policy?While many of these companies owned by profiteers like Cheney and Perle have power,to say that the US's foreign policy is influenced by corporations doesn't work.The typical Chomsky idea that the flawed US foreign policy during the Cold war was thought out by corporations instead of paranoia over communism is incorrect.
 

Kelzie

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Re: War on Terror is bogus

Turenne said:
Your missing the point.Guatamala had to do with communism not business,just like Iran 1953 had nothing to do with oil.How those Haliburton's actions directly infleunce US foreign policy?While many of these companies owned by profiteers like Cheney and Perle have power,to say that the US's foreign policy is influenced by corporations doesn't work.The typical Chomsky idea that the flawed US foreign policy during the Cold war was thought out by corporations instead of paranoia over communism is incorrect.
No, I'm not missing the point. You've missed your history lesson. There was no communism in Guatemala. What there was, was a democratically elected president (Arbenz) who tried to buy back the land from the United Fruit Company so he could give it to his starving people to grow food on. There was also connections between the CIA and the United Fruit Company, much propaganda by the United Fruit Company to convince the US that Guatemala had turned communist (looks like it worked on some), and finally a CIA led coup called PBSUCCESS. The coup led to 30 more years of repressions and killings.

To say that corporations have no affect on American foreign policy is very misinformed.
 

Turenne

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Re: War on Terror is bogus

No, I'm not missing the point. You've missed your history lesson. There was no communism in Guatemala. What there was, was a democratically elected president (Arbenz) who tried to buy back the land from the United Fruit Company so he could give it to his starving people to grow food on. There was also connections between the CIA and the United Fruit Company, much propaganda by the United Fruit Company to convince the US that Guatemala had turned communist (looks like it worked on some), and finally a CIA led coup called PBSUCCESS. The coup led to 30 more years of repressions and killings.
There's a clear difference here.The United Fruit Company didn't say to the CIA to simply iniatate covert action because of Guzmans redistribution of lands but instead fed off the rabid US paranoia of Communism taking hold in a South American country and then spreading.The covert action in Guatamala was still because of the CIA and US's paranoia over Communism.

To say that corporations have no affect on American foreign policy is very misinformed.
Sorry but the actions of the United Fruit Company 50 years ago have little relation to the actions of present day Haliburton in Iraq.I would ask you for prrof that Haliburton had much to do with the invasion of Iraq but you won't be able to provide any.
 

Kelzie

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Re: War on Terror is bogus

Turenne said:
There's a clear difference here.The United Fruit Company didn't say to the CIA to simply iniatate covert action because of Guzmans redistribution of lands but instead fed off the rabid US paranoia of Communism taking hold in a South American country and then spreading.The covert action in Guatamala was still because of the CIA and US's paranoia over Communism.



Sorry but the actions of the United Fruit Company 50 years ago have little relation to the actions of present day Haliburton in Iraq.I would ask you for prrof that Haliburton had much to do with the invasion of Iraq but you won't be able to provide any.
No. Still wrong. The US State Department participated in the public relations campaign. And the head of the CIA at the time was a former board of trustees member for the UFCO. The CIA knew what they were doing.

And it took 50 years for this information to come out. It is very possible in another 50 that we'll have damning information on Halliburton too.
 

shuamort

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Re: War on Terror is bogus

Kelzie said:
And it took 50 years for this information to come out. It is very possible in another 50 that we'll have damning information on Halliburton too.
Well, we do know that Haliburton is raping the United States financially:

KBR spent millions getting $82,100 worth of LPG into Iraq
By DAVID IVANOVICH
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON - Iraq needed fuel. Halliburton Co. was ordered to get it there — quick. So the Houston-based contractor charged the Pentagon $27.5 million to ship $82,100 worth of cooking and heating fuel.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Re-education is a great thing to preach, but when you pick up a gun you begin working backwards.
If their existing society only lets them learn "hate America and the Jews", how then Gandhi, do they get re-educated at all. And don't say, "the truth will find a way".
 

Gandhi>Bush

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teacher said:
If their existing society only lets them learn "hate America and the Jews", how then Gandhi, do they get re-educated at all. And don't say, "the truth will find a way".
The truth will find a way? When have I ever suggested something like that?

There are ways of putting pressure on a governement and ways of persuasion that could open all sorts of options that most people simply don't have the patience to even consider.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
The truth will find a way? When have I ever suggested something like that?

]
You think they see nothing? You think all current events come from the local bomb vest vendor?
This is you from War on terror is bogus #376.

I was saying we have to crash into Afghanistan and by force open their eyes. Force the free flow of information and freedom of the press. You were saying the info gets in there anyway.

I, teacher, of the giant brain never forgets anything...now where are my pants?.......
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
There are ways of putting pressure on a governement and ways of persuasion that could open all sorts of options that most people simply don't have the patience to even consider.
Well yes. Beam radio and TV at them. Underground literature and so on. But the problem is in an oppressive government they stand the chance of being killed just for possessing or listening to such. Secret police and all. So I put forth the government has to go. You can sanction them all you want. Think Saddam and those in power missed one meal because of sanctions? Did we not try all these things in Iraq. How many lives were lost because of our invasion? And how many did Saddam kill and how many more would have been killed if he were left in power? In the long run how many would still be alive if we had not waited all those years for a "diplomatic solution". I understand your non violence stand Gandhi I really do but what if violence saves lives in the long run. Are you more concerned with not doing violence than you are of the lives saved from doing said violence? I feel less people died because of our invasion of Iraq than would be dead by now if we hadn't.
 

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teacher said:
Well yes. Beam radio and TV at them. Underground literature and so on. But the problem is in an oppressive government they stand the chance of being killed just for possessing or listening to such. Secret police and all. So I put forth the government has to go. You can sanction them all you want. Think Saddam and those in power missed one meal because of sanctions? Did we not try all these things in Iraq. How many lives were lost because of our invasion? And how many did Saddam kill and how many more would have been killed if he were left in power? In the long run how many would still be alive if we had not waited all those years for a "diplomatic solution". I understand your non violence stand Gandhi I really do but what if violence saves lives in the long run. Are you more concerned with not doing violence than you are of the lives saved from doing said violence? I feel less people died because of our invasion of Iraq than would be dead by now if we hadn't.
I believe that this war in Iraq has spread terrorism. I believe that this war has polarized many muslims into those that the love America and hope that we will rush to their country next, and those that hate America and intend on rushing to our country next, or in today's case our allies' country. I believe that GWB said that he wanted to spread a moderate islam, but I believe that he has destroyed the moderates and forced everyone into the extremes. There is a good side to the extreme, but there is also a very very bad side to the extreme.

When it comes to sanctions, sanctions on food hurt the people, it should not be our aim to hurt the people.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
I believe that this war in Iraq has spread terrorism. I believe that this war has polarized many muslims into those that the love America and hope that we will rush to their country next, and those that hate America and intend on rushing to our country next, or in today's case our allies' country. I believe that GWB said that he wanted to spread a moderate islam, but I believe that he has destroyed the moderates and forced everyone into the extremes. There is a good side to the extreme, but there is also a very very bad side to the extreme.

When it comes to sanctions, sanctions on food hurt the people, it should not be our aim to hurt the people.
Didn't answer the question. I ask again. Is it okay to do violence if in the long run the violence saves lives? Which is more important? Not doing violence and having more innocents lost or the lives saved of the innocents by doing violence? I always break it down to brass tacks with you Gandhi and you never answer directly. Answer one for a change. I always say the winner of an argument is the one that asks a question that wont be answered. Hmmm?
 

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In short, "Fight fire with fire!" :gunner: :blastem:
 
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