• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Waiting For Superman

Working for my local state legislature, I recently went to a university briefing for new legislature members and their staffs on education in the state. The local expert from the major university showed us the stats that half of all charter schools in the state ranked in the bottom quarter of schools whose children were tested on state standardized tests. They also spend a lot less money on instruction than public schools even though they get pretty much the same per pupil allocation from the state. I also attended an event put on by a major company with over 180 charter schools in the state. They have totally shifted their approach in their speeches and in their literature. Ten years ago it was "we will give you better education than the public schools". Now, they have totally dropped that line. Today its "don't you want people to have choice?".

Reality is catching up with their ideology and their rhetoric.
 
The core idea behind the act was a good one - equal education for everyone. And in order to do that they set some standards to meet.

Ok - that there isn't bad at all.

It's how impractical those standards were, how impossible it was to meet, and the lack of commitment to actually getting there legitimately that caused problems. It put the emphasis on the goal of "passing this test" and not on overall learning or critical thinking.

My law-teacher last year unloaded his view of this onto me - he said in the last 15 years there's been a significant decline in a student's critical-thinking ability because of it. Students can *remember* a lot that they read - but they do not *process it* mentally and actually *learn* everything they *remember*
He said that essay questions use to be a great test-giving tool - they required applying solid knowledge. but now students just write it out - and dedicate it to memory - and it's lost it's effectiveness as far as testing goes.
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
Have you heard of No Child Left Behind? It was a lie. It should have been called Waiting For Godot. If you don't believe me, check it out for yourself:

Waiting for Superman - Movie Trailers - iTunes

2010 Sundance Film Festival : WAITING FOR SUPERMAN

Waiting for "Superman" - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...
I caught this in the states right before I left. It was one of the best documentaries I've ever seen. I found it chilling and it angered me. I noticed the other day that it was not even nominated for an Academy Award. I find that to be a crime. Though I stopped looking to the Academy Awards as "inspirational" a long time ago. If you have children and are concerned about our education system this film is a "must see" for you!
 
Zaserac said:
I caught this in the states right before I left. It was one of the best documentaries I've ever seen. I found it chilling and it angered me. I noticed the other day that it was not even nominated for an Academy Award. I find that to be a crime. Though I stopped looking to the Academy Awards as "inspirational" a long time ago. If you have children and are concerned about our education system this film is a "must see" for you!
Click to expand...

Waiting For Superman has received relatively little publicity in the US. I think that is because it skewers many of the myths that have been created by the Education Establishment in this country. The Education Establishment creates jobs for adults. It does less and less for students. Look at the Detroit Public School system. It's solution to the financial crisis is to increase class sizes to the size of 50 students per class. They are unable to adapt any other way. The children are doomed.
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
Waiting For Superman has received relatively little publicity in the US. I think that is because it skewers many of the myths that have been created by the Education Establishment in this country. The Education Establishment creates jobs for adults. It does less and less for students. Look at the Detroit Public School system. It's solution to the financial crisis is to increase class sizes to the size of 50 students per class. They are unable to adapt any other way. The children are doomed.
Click to expand...

50 students? That's insane...

My classes in high school were already all at 34 - the legal limit at the time.

I find a lot of fantastic documentaries are often overlooked by the public - I remember IOUSA from a few years back was a great documentary on the natl. debt.
 
iamitter said:
50 students? That's insane...

My classes in high school were already all at 34 - the legal limit at the time.

I find a lot of fantastic documentaries are often overlooked by the public - I remember IOUSA from a few years back was a great documentary on the natl. debt.
Click to expand...

Insane is right.
 
The class size proposal from the Detroit financial manager is NOT meant to be a serious proposal that will come to pass. Its his way of playing chicken with the state legislature to get more money to allow him to do what he wants to do DESPITE NOT HAVING THE LEGAL AUTHORITY TO DO IT. He was appointed to get the district out of deficit. Since his tenure in his post, he has INCREASED the deficit by over a hundred million dollars and now wants academic control as well.
 
Zaserac said:
I caught this in the states right before I left. It was one of the best documentaries I've ever seen. I found it chilling and it angered me.
Click to expand...

And that is also about when I stop taking a film or book seriously. Perhaps I am a bit too hard bitten, but I find gut wrenching emotional appeals a useful way to sell a policy alternative, but rarely satisfactory in addressing social or political reality. This complicated reality is immensely complex and fraught with an imperfect understanding of a problem and yet it demands that a close to perfect solution take place. And we may not ever get that.
 
Last edited:
Zaserac said:
I caught this in the states right before I left. It was one of the best documentaries I've ever seen. I found it chilling and it angered me. I noticed the other day that it was not even nominated for an Academy Award. I find that to be a crime. Though I stopped looking to the Academy Awards as "inspirational" a long time ago. If you have children and are concerned about our education system this film is a "must see" for you!
Click to expand...

I had much the same reaction to TRIUMPH OF THE WILL. It was chilling and it angered me. And despite being one of the greatest propaganda pieces ever it was not given the Academy Award either.
 
I just saw it on tv. I have a lump in my throat. We need to get out of the prison business and into the education business. It seams so simple yet impossible. I see it in New Orleans and know that these kids could all be doctors and engineers rather than prison residents. They have been so let down. Should be a felony crime.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I had 48 in a summer school class, but that is the most htat I have ever seen or heard of...
Click to expand...

i'm curious as to why we should think 50 is insane? plenty of collegiate lectures have more than that, and our college system remains the best in the world.
 
cpwill said:
i'm curious as to why we should think 50 is insane? plenty of collegiate lectures have more than that, and our college system remains the best in the world.
Click to expand...

That's completely different. College students and younger kids have different mental states. Even when you compare them to high school students, they tend to be more self-reliant and responsible.
 
im not gonna lie, watching this movie made me hate teacher's unions..

some of the principles behind unions though are probably needed.


i dont think the majority of the problem is with teachers. i think the problem is with with the kids themselves and their parents.

1. i think alot of teachers have to dumb down their material in accordinance to the rest of the class. if the majority of the class is stupid and/or lazy, the teacher will have to treat the whole class as if they were stupid and/or lazy. this will lower the standards of the class and leave the smart and.or hardworking kids at a severe disadvantage. it is my opion that struggling schools dont necessarily have bad teachers, i think its more probable that they have bad students. these bad students create an environment of low standards which negatively affects good students.

i think all school systems should develop a system of segregating the good students from the bad students. my school system did this. this way, the good students will not ahve to follow the pace made for bad students. they can follow a better pace that will challenge them.

2. if a kid has a bad teacher/class environment and still works hard after school and continues to challenge himself, he can still be pretty well educated.
 
For at least 50 years "parents are not doing enough" has been the excuse used to do a less than mediocre job of teaching. Blame the parents.

Let's just assume that the child is not going to be taught by the parents and give the job to our teachers. Let them be more responsible. It will be amazing if this movie changes anything. It kills me to see so many leave school seemingly illiterate and helpless. What did they do all day?
 
Last edited:
sazerac said:
For at least 50 years "parents are not doing enough" has been the excuse used to do a less than mediocre job of teaching. Blame the parents.

Let's just assume that the child is not going to be taught by the parents and give the job to our teachers. Let them be more responsible. It will be amazing if this movie changes anything. It kills me to see so many leave school seemingly illiterate and helpless. What did they do all day?
Click to expand...

this is my theory. in schools with many good students and few bad students, teachers can focus more one on one time with the bad students. the result: bad students get significant help and learn more in the schools with many good students. in schools with many bad students and few good students, the teacher cannot spend as much one on one time with the many bad students. the result: the many bad students dont get significant help and do not learn as much as the ones in the schools with good students.
 
Fiddytree said:
And that is also about when I stop taking a film or book seriously. Perhaps I am a bit too hard bitten, but I find gut wrenching emotional appeals a useful way to sell a policy alternative, but rarely satisfactory in addressing social or political reality. This complicated reality is immensely complex and fraught with an imperfect understanding of a problem and yet it demands that a close to perfect solution take place. And we may not ever get that.
Click to expand...

You're right, or course, but we can't stop trying. I can applaud any clear-eyed diagnosis of the problem. What we can't allow is solutions to be implemented based on irrational appeals.
 
from Jmax


im not gonna lie, watching this movie made me hate teacher's unions..
Click to expand...

No doubt. And I also suspect that TRIUMPH OF THE WILL made people love the Nazi party when it was shown also.

Propaganda in the hands of a skilled filmmaker can be very powerful.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom