[W:88] Why was Mary confused?

[Monica33]

Matthew 12:46-50 "Jesus’ Mother and Brothers 46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” 48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”'

Allow for colloquial use . You are my sister in the same sense . But not biologically .

 

[Valery]

Allow for colloquial use . You are my sister in the same sense . But not biologically .

Then how could he make a comparison? Why is he saying to his listeners, you are my brothers, and why are those other brothers with his mother? Just randomly the listeners assume the people with his mother are his brothers more than others? — and who were the brothers?

 

[phattonez]

Didn't Jesus have brothers?

The word for brothers isn't all that specific. It can also mean relatives. Like the word brethren for us.

 

[phattonez]

Not that I am aware of .
But two sons and one daughter , if you dig deep in Gospels discarded by the Council of Nicea ( did not fit the narrative ) plus Qumran scroll fragments .

They were discarded because they were written way after the fact and don't line up with the gospels we know to be true. Easily provable forgeries.

 

[phattonez]

Then how could he make a comparison? Why is he saying to his listeners, you are my brothers, and why are those other brothers with his mother? Just randomly the listeners assume the people with his mother are his brothers more than others? — and who were the brothers?

Relatives.

 

[weaver2]

There hadn't been. All of the announced births were natural births. The only reason Mary would have asked is because she intended to not have sex........

Is the Church twisting, warping, manipulating and massaging this idiotic bit of dogma in order to distract from Christ's real message, which as far as I can see not one single priest, abbot, bishop, cardinal or The Pope honors by observing and acting upon. The Church is overly interested in accumulating worldly goods instead of living in poverty and giving to the poor. And right now they seem to be obsessing on making sure women carry every pregnancy to term and produce a child no matter what kind of life the child will have.

 

[phattonez]

Is the Church twisting, warping, manipulating and massaging this idiotic bit of dogma in order to distract from Christ's real message, which as far as I can see not one single priest, abbot, bishop, cardinal or The Pope honors by observing and acting upon. The Church is overly interested in accumulating worldly goods instead of living in poverty and giving to the poor. And right now they seem to be obsessing on making sure women carry every pregnancy to term and produce a child no matter what kind of life the child will have.

Try to stay on topic. If you want to talk about something else then make your own thread.

 

[weaver2]

Try to stay on topic. If you want to talk about something else then make your own thread.

Asking why a topic has been posted is staying on topic. Why are you insisting that Mary remained a virgin? It's completely immaterial to the main message Christ was trying to convey. His message stands alone in its simplicity, truth and power. His words do not need confirmation from a virgin to be valuable.

 

[Lursa]

Asking why a topic has been posted is staying on topic. Why are you insisting that Mary remained a virgin? It's completely immaterial to the main message Christ was trying to convey. His message stands alone in its simplicity, truth and power. His words do not need confirmation from a virgin to be valuable.

I have asked him for clarification on that several times, after engaging in civil, honest debate on his topic. He's not 'discussing' as far as I can tell...just fishing.

 

[Daisy]

Asking why a topic has been posted is staying on topic. Why are you insisting that Mary remained a virgin? It's completely immaterial to the main message Christ was trying to convey. His message stands alone in its simplicity, truth and power. His words do not need confirmation from a virgin to be valuable.

True but it's catholic doctrine, so he's not willing to admit it's a lie...

 

[tosca1]

An angel came to a young betrothed woman and told her she would bear a son. She then asked how this would happen.

But this question makes no sense. She knows how babies are made. There is only one explanation: she was intending to remain a virgin. Otherwise, it's obvious how she would get pregnant.

Luke 1
26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David.
And the virgin's name was Mary.



She was betrothed at the time with Joseph - therefore, she knew she wouldn't be a virgin forever.
She knew what entailed marriage.


She wasn't confused. She must've understood the conception will happen soon. Before she's married to Joseph.
She simply just wanted more details from the angel.



Luke 1
34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”

 

[tosca1]

If she was planning on having sex, then there's no reason for the question.

If she gets pregnant before her marriage to Joseph - then, of course, there is sensible reason to ask how it will be!

 

[phattonez]

Luke 1
26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David.
And the virgin's name was Mary.



She was betrothed at the time with Joseph - therefore, she knew she wouldn't be a virgin forever.
She knew what entailed marriage.


She wasn't confused. She must've understood the conception will happen soon. Before she's married to Joseph.
She simply just wanted more details from the angel.



Luke 1
34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”

Then she would assume that she would become pregnant through Joseph. The question makes no sense. The angel never said that this would happen before marrying Joseph.

 

[tosca1]

Then she would assume that she would become pregnant through Joseph. The question makes no sense. The angel never said that this would happen before marrying Joseph.

Not if she thought conception was going to happen BEFORE marriage to Joseph actually took place.

It did happen before they got married.


Matthew 1
Joseph Accepts Jesus as His Son

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to
divorce her quietly.


20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins.”


22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).


24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.
25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.




Maybe, her pregnancy became noticeable before their marriage. The family of Joseph did the math.
That must've been a big scandal in those days, especially on the side of Joseph!


Bethlehem was the hometown of Joseph! Therefore, very likely he's got a lot of relations living in that place.
Why do you think they ended up with Mary giving birth in a stable - because, no family of Joseph took them in!

What relation would not make room in the house for Mary - who's obviously due anytime - unless, there's a huge reason not to?
Maybe, Mary became like a persona non-grata to them? She was not accepted?

 

[weaver2]

Not if she thought conception was going to happen BEFORE marriage to Joseph actually took place. It did happen before they got married.
Matthew 1
Joseph Accepts Jesus as His Son
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.
19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to
divorce her quietly.
20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins.”
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).
24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.
25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
Maybe, her pregnancy became noticeable before their marriage. The family of Joseph did the math.
That must've been a big scandal in those days, especially on the side of Joseph!
Bethlehem was the hometown of Joseph! Therefore, very likely he's got a lot of relations living in that place.
Why do you think they ended up with Mary giving birth in a stable - because, no family of Joseph took them in!
What relation would not make room in the house for Mary - who's obviously due anytime - unless, there's a huge reason not to?
Maybe, Mary became like a persona non-grata to them? She was not accepted?

Could someone explain why this matters? The message Jesus sought to bring to people is neither made more or less valid depending on the state of Mary's virginity or lack thereof.

 

[Daisy]

Could someone explain why this matters? The message Jesus sought to bring to people is neither made more or less valid depending on the state of Mary's virginity or lack thereof.

Truth matters to God so it should also matter to us...

God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth." John 4:24

 

[phattonez]

Not if she thought conception was going to happen BEFORE marriage to Joseph actually took place.

It did happen before they got married.


Matthew 1
Joseph Accepts Jesus as His Son

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to
divorce her quietly.


20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins.”


22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).


24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.
25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.




Maybe, her pregnancy became noticeable before their marriage. The family of Joseph did the math.
That must've been a big scandal in those days, especially on the side of Joseph!


Bethlehem was the hometown of Joseph! Therefore, very likely he's got a lot of relations living in that place.
Why do you think they ended up with Mary giving birth in a stable - because, no family of Joseph took them in!

What relation would not make room in the house for Mary - who's obviously due anytime - unless, there's a huge reason not to?
Maybe, Mary became like a persona non-grata to them? She was not accepted?

Mary asked the question of the angel at the annunciation, not after getting pregnant. Why would she assume that the pregnancy would happen immediately? Abraham had to wait 40 years. He didn't question how Sarah would get pregnant.

 

[phattonez]

Could someone explain why this matters? The message Jesus sought to bring to people is neither made more or less valid depending on the state of Mary's virginity or lack thereof.

Why Mary's Perpetual Virginity Matters

Mary’s perpetual virginity is denied by most Protestants today. Was Mary a virgin for her entire life? And why does it matter? Read more here.

www.catholic.com

 

[Lursa]

Why Mary's Perpetual Virginity Matters

Mary’s perpetual virginity is denied by most Protestants today. Was Mary a virgin for her entire life? And why does it matter? Read more here.

www.catholic.com

I just read it. It explains why a bunch of Catholic guys' opinions were that she was perpetually a virgin.

I didnt see anywhere why they explained WHY that's important. Please quote some passages where they explain it. Or provide your own.

 

[tosca1]

Could someone explain why this matters? The message Jesus sought to bring to people is neither made more or less valid depending on the state of Mary's virginity or lack thereof.

Obviously, the Saviour being born to a virgin matters.
That's the prophecy in the Old Testament - the Messiah will be borne of a virgin.



Isaiah 7

The Sign of Immanuel

13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.




The Meaning of Almah

The word translated "virgin" in the KJV is almah. This term in either its feminine form (almah) or masculine form (elem) occurs nine times in the Old Testament (Gen. 24:43; Ex. 2:8; 1 Sam. 17:56; 20:22; Psa. 68:25; Prov. 30:19; S. of Sol. 1:3; 6:8; Isa. 7:14).
So far as we can judge from the contexts, the term never refers to a married person or even to an adult. In some instances, the term obviously refers to someone young and unmarried. For example, Moses' sister Miriam was an almah when she hid him in the bulrushes (Ex. 2:8).


According to Alfred Edersheim, the great Jewish scholar converted to Christianity nearly two centuries ago, the Jews recognize eight stages of growth.3 He says that the word almah pertains to the sixth stage, which is between dependent childhood and independent youth.4 By its connotation of firmness and strength, the word suggests the rapid bodily growth of early adolescence.5 Thus, an almah was a girl about twelve to fourteen years old. The closest English equivalents to almah are "maiden" and "damsel."6 "Young woman," although passable as a translation, stretches the concept too far into adulthood.

The rabbis taught that a father should betroth his daughter to his slave rather than keep her unbetrothed beyond puberty.7 A girl was normally married before she passed much beyond fourteen.8 Thus, since almah specifically denotes a girl at the stage of growth just before marriage, the term apparently came to signify "unmarried girl of marriageable age."9 And since nearly all unmarried girls in ancient Hebrew culture were chaste, the term seems to have acquired the further meaning "virgin."10 In some of the texts exhibiting almah, "virgin" is clearly the most appropriate translation.

Virgin Birth of Christ: Prophecies in Genesis and Isaiah

The same with performing miracles - does the message of Jesus made more or less valid? YES!
They're proof that He comes from God, and, is truly who he claimed Himself to be.

 

[tosca1]

Mary asked the question of the angel at the annunciation, not after getting pregnant. Why would she assume that the pregnancy would happen immediately? Abraham had to wait 40 years. He didn't question how Sarah would get pregnant.

Whether she knew or not that the pregnancy will happen sooner than her marriage - it was still a valid, sensible question!
"How could I get pregnant when I'm a virgin?"

Translation: Angel, can you please give me more info?


We don't know the FULL CONVERSATION that happened between Mary and the angel.
What is written are simply the point of that event. This message: THE MESSIAH IS BORNE OF A VIRGIN!

Just like normal editors of any publishing houses - what is published is as concise as possible.


Maybe, in that event, Mary asked when will it happen. She probably most likely assumed it will be her and Joseph's first born.
Excitedly, she probably asked with a twinkle in her eye: Will my son be a "honeymoon" baby?
And the angel probably said, "No..... Joseph wouldn't be the father."
"WHAT? What do you mean Joseph wouldn't be the dad? I won't end up being married to Joseph? Something will happen to Joseph
and I'll marry someone else?"
"Calm down, Mary. Nothing will happen to Joseph. You'll be married to Joseph."

But, the full flow of that conversation was not given in the Bible - it was irrelevant already.


I don't get what your point is. What you're trying to imply is too stretched beyond logic!
Surely you're not saying Mary intended to be a virgin even after she was married to Joseph?
Surely, you're not suggesting she meant to divorce Joseph from their betrothal, and never get married?

So - all the siblings of Jesus were bastard kids of Joseph from different women or woman?




I think -correct me if I'm wrong - Catholicism teaches that Mary was a virgin unto the end of her natural life?
Is that what you're trying to push here?

If I'm correct - this is just another proof why I say the Marian doctrine is from Satan!

 

[weaver2]

....... The Meaning of Almah
The word translated "virgin" in the KJV is almah. This term in either its feminine form (almah) or masculine form (elem) occurs nine times in the Old Testament (Gen. 24:43; Ex. 2:8; 1 Sam. 17:56; 20:22; Psa. 68:25; Prov. 30:19; S. of Sol. 1:3; 6:8; Isa. 7:14).
So far as we can judge from the contexts, the term never refers to a married person or even to an adult. In some instances, the term obviously refers to someone young and unmarried. For example, Moses' sister Miriam was an almah when she hid him in the bulrushes (Ex. 2:8).
According to Alfred Edersheim, the great Jewish scholar converted to Christianity nearly two centuries ago, the Jews recognize eight stages of growth.3 He says that the word almah pertains to the sixth stage, which is between dependent childhood and independent youth.4 By its connotation of firmness and strength, the word suggests the rapid bodily growth of early adolescence.5 Thus, an almah was a girl about twelve to fourteen years old. The closest English equivalents to almah are "maiden" and "damsel."6 "Young woman," although passable as a translation, stretches the concept too far into adulthood.

The rabbis taught that a father should betroth his daughter to his slave rather than keep her unbetrothed beyond puberty.7 A girl was normally married before she passed much beyond fourteen.8 Thus, since almah specifically denotes a girl at the stage of growth just before marriage, the term apparently came to signify "unmarried girl of marriageable age."9 And since nearly all unmarried girls in ancient Hebrew culture were chaste, the term seems to have acquired the further meaning "virgin."10 In some of the texts exhibiting almah, "virgin" is clearly the most appropriate translation.

Essentially the prediction is that a primigravida will produce a child, big whoop!

 

[phattonez]

Obviously, the Saviour being born to a virgin matters.
That's the prophecy in the Old Testament - the Messiah will be borne of a virgin.



Isaiah 7

The Sign of Immanuel

13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.




The Meaning of Almah

The word translated "virgin" in the KJV is almah. This term in either its feminine form (almah) or masculine form (elem) occurs nine times in the Old Testament (Gen. 24:43; Ex. 2:8; 1 Sam. 17:56; 20:22; Psa. 68:25; Prov. 30:19; S. of Sol. 1:3; 6:8; Isa. 7:14).
So far as we can judge from the contexts, the term never refers to a married person or even to an adult. In some instances, the term obviously refers to someone young and unmarried. For example, Moses' sister Miriam was an almah when she hid him in the bulrushes (Ex. 2:8).


According to Alfred Edersheim, the great Jewish scholar converted to Christianity nearly two centuries ago, the Jews recognize eight stages of growth.3 He says that the word almah pertains to the sixth stage, which is between dependent childhood and independent youth.4 By its connotation of firmness and strength, the word suggests the rapid bodily growth of early adolescence.5 Thus, an almah was a girl about twelve to fourteen years old. The closest English equivalents to almah are "maiden" and "damsel."6 "Young woman," although passable as a translation, stretches the concept too far into adulthood.

The rabbis taught that a father should betroth his daughter to his slave rather than keep her unbetrothed beyond puberty.7 A girl was normally married before she passed much beyond fourteen.8 Thus, since almah specifically denotes a girl at the stage of growth just before marriage, the term apparently came to signify "unmarried girl of marriageable age."9 And since nearly all unmarried girls in ancient Hebrew culture were chaste, the term seems to have acquired the further meaning "virgin."10 In some of the texts exhibiting almah, "virgin" is clearly the most appropriate translation.

Virgin Birth of Christ: Prophecies in Genesis and Isaiah

The same with performing miracles - does the message of Jesus made more or less valid? YES!
They're proof that He comes from God, and, is truly who he claimed Himself to be.

Her question was directly about how this could happen because she knows not man (ie is a virgin). If she's planning on having sex, then why would there be this question? Zechariah didn't ask this. Neither did Abraham. Nor did Samson's parents. Why wouldn't Mary assume that she would get pregnant like all the other announced births? Your explanation didn't make sense because if she's thinking about the prophesied virgin birth, then she shouldn't make the point about knowing not man.

 

[phattonez]

Whether she knew or not that the pregnancy will happen sooner than her marriage - it was still a valid, sensible question!
"How could I get pregnant when I'm a virgin?"

Translation: Angel, can you please give me more info?


We don't know the FULL CONVERSATION that happened between Mary and the angel.
What is written are simply the point of that event. This message: THE MESSIAH IS BORNE OF A VIRGIN!

Just like normal editors of any publishing houses - what is published is as concise as possible.


Maybe, in that event, Mary asked when will it happen. She probably most likely assumed it will be her and Joseph's first born.
Excitedly, she probably asked with a twinkle in her eye: Will my son be a "honeymoon" baby?
And the angel probably said, "No..... Joseph wouldn't be the father."
"WHAT? What do you mean Joseph wouldn't be the dad? I won't end up being married to Joseph? Something will happen to Joseph
and I'll marry someone else?"
"Calm down, Mary. Nothing will happen to Joseph. You'll be married to Joseph."

But, the full flow of that conversation was not given in the Bible - it was irrelevant already.


I don't get what your point is. What you're trying to imply is too stretched beyond logic!
Surely you're not saying Mary intended to be a virgin even after she was married to Joseph?
Surely, you're not suggesting she meant to divorce Joseph from their betrothal, and never get married?

So - all the siblings of Jesus were bastard kids of Joseph from different women or woman?




I think -correct me if I'm wrong - Catholicism teaches that Mary was a virgin unto the end of her natural life?
Is that what you're trying to push here?

If I'm correct - this is just another proof why I say the Marian doctrine is from Satan!

So your interpretation is that this isn't the question that Mary asked? She really asked something else? So now we're changing the words of the Bible to suit your doctrine. And you're saying that I'm the one who's following Satan?

As to the brothers of Jesus, they're either sons of Joseph from a previous marriage, or they're cousins, as the Greek word used for brothers can have a more extended definition.

 

[tosca1]

Her question was directly about how this could happen because she knows not man (ie is a virgin). If she's planning on having sex, then why would there be this question? Zechariah didn't ask this. Neither did Abraham. Nor did Samson's parents. Why wouldn't Mary assume that she would get pregnant like all the other announced births? Your explanation didn't make sense because if she's thinking about the prophesied virgin birth, then she shouldn't make the point about knowing not man.

So your interpretation is that this isn't the question that Mary asked? She really asked something else? So now we're changing the words of the Bible to suit your doctrine. And you're saying that I'm the one who's following Satan?

As to the brothers of Jesus, they're either sons of Joseph from a previous marriage, or they're cousins, as the Greek word used for brothers can have a more extended definition.

Read it again. And, again.

I'm not changing anything. I'm simply envisioning how a conversation would've flowed considering the natural interest of Mary
(with that question).

Why wouldn't it be normal for a young teenage virgin to ask "how can I have a baby when I'm a virgin?" She wanted details!
That's a normal reaction!

Lol - you're making her abnormal with your translation that she never intended to have sex even after marriage!
Lol - how did you get to that conclusion with that simple, normal question? You saying she's got psychological issues?
She's sick? She hates sex? Lol - you think she was a lesbian in the closet?



IF SHE WAS ALL THAT BLESSED AND DEVOTED TO GOD -
do you really think she would've shirked away from being a true wife and mother?


What kind of marriage do you imagine for her? Marriage without sex?

She would've deprived Joseph and had become an enabler in him committing adultery?

Mary had pushed Joseph to commit adultery?
She was complicit with adultery?
You saying they are a DYSFUNCTIONAL family?




Being betrothed doesn't mean getting married next month! Do we even know when she and Joseph were supposed to get married?

Mary and Joseph had a NORMAL marriage - complete with a healthy sex-life as shown by their numerous children!
The siblings of Jesus weren't from surrogates!


If there is something out of the norm in their relationship - it would've surely been detailed in the Scriptures!


Mary did not die a virgin! That's what you're trying to promote!