[W: #795] [W: #1002] The Trinity

[Daisy]

I've viewed the final judgment as showing the unjust the righteous judgement of God. When speaking of the resurrection it refers to that of the just and unjust. In your examples the death is the consequences of their sin. Some verse states that the wages of sin is death, but they most likely don't understand why it's a righteous judgement. That becomes clear on judgement day.

Well, we'll know for sure one day when Jehovah clears up/answers all our questions we have now for us...

 

[Overitall]

Well, we'll know for sure one day when Jehovah clears up/answers all our questions we have now for us...

So true. Which is why some things are better off waiting for that time to come. I look forward to that time of knowing as we are known.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Let me take a stab at that:

The Perfect Man was not making an atonement for HIMSELF.
He's making the atonement for mankind.



It would be like this with grandma and the vase.
Little Peter broke the new vase Grandma just bought.
GRANDPA stepped in to save him from Grandma's wrath!
Grandpa bought another vase to replace the one little Peter broke.



lol - just watched Everybody Loves Raymond, an episode on which Grandpa took the blame for his daughter-in-law.

If Grandpa steps in to save Peter from Grandma's wrath, that's nice of him and all, but Grandpa isn't making an atonement. Grandpa can't repent for Peter's mistakes. Only Peter can repent for Peter's mistakes.

Buying Grandma a new vase isn't an atonement unless one is doing so as part of an apology for breaking her vase to begin with, in order to demonstrate sincere remorse for one's actions.

 

[Daisy]

If Grandpa steps in to save Peter from Grandma's wrath, that's nice of him and all, but Grandpa isn't making an atonement. Grandpa can't repent for Peter's mistakes. Only Peter can repent for Peter's mistakes.

Buying Grandma a new vase isn't an atonement unless one is doing so as part of an apology for breaking her vase to begin with, in order to demonstrate sincere remorse for one's actions.

Wrong...it is Jehovah God who sets the standard for His ransom to be met, not you or anyone else...He says a perfect life/Adam's for a perfect life/Jesus Christ, will buy back for Adam's offspring what he lost for them...everlasting life...

"For if by the trespass of the one man death ruled as king through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one person, Jesus Christ!" Romans 5:17

"For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

"For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22

How could the death of one man bring life to millions? Paul gives a logical answer to that question. He draws a contrast between what Adam brought on mankind and what is possible through Christ. With regard to Adam, Paul wrote: “Death came through a man.” When Adam sinned, he brought disaster on himself and his descendants. We still feel the tragic effects of his disobedience. How different is the outcome made possible because God raised his Son! “Resurrection of the dead also comes through a man,” Jesus. “For just as in Adam all are dying,” Paul reasoned, “so also in the Christ all will be made alive.”—1 Cor. 15:21, 22.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2020680

 

[Overitall]

Wrong...it is Jehovah God who sets the standard for His ransom to be met, not you or anyone else...He says a perfect life/Adam's for a perfect life/Jesus Christ, will buy back for Adam's offspring what he lost for them...everlasting life...

Such simple explanations confounds the wise of Satan's world.

"For if by the trespass of the one man death ruled as king through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one person, Jesus Christ!" Romans 5:17

"For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

"For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22

How could the death of one man bring life to millions? Paul gives a logical answer to that question. He draws a contrast between what Adam brought on mankind and what is possible through Christ. With regard to Adam, Paul wrote: “Death came through a man.” When Adam sinned, he brought disaster on himself and his descendants. We still feel the tragic effects of his disobedience. How different is the outcome made possible because God raised his Son! “Resurrection of the dead also comes through a man,” Jesus. “For just as in Adam all are dying,” Paul reasoned, “so also in the Christ all will be made alive.”—1 Cor. 15:21, 22.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2020680

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Wrong...it is Jehovah God who sets the standard for His ransom to be met, not you or anyone else...He says a perfect life/Adam's for a perfect life/Jesus Christ, will buy back for Adam's offspring what he lost for them...everlasting life...

If someone kidnaps someone, they can make whatever ransom demands they want. If someone offers a chicken sandwich in exchange for the release of their favorite butler, that's fine. Folks can make whatever bizarre ransom arrangements they want.

That has nothing to do with whether atonement has been made for someone's mistakes.

 

[Overitall]

If someone kidnaps someone, they can make whatever ransom demands they want. If someone offers a chicken sandwich in exchange for the release of their favorite butler, that's fine. Folks can make whatever bizarre ransom arrangements they want.

That has nothing to do with whether atonement has been made for someone's mistakes.

Where do you find the term kidnapped in regards to ransom as it relates to the price paid to redeem mankind. No one was kidnapped.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Where do you find the term kidnapped in regards to ransom as it relates to the price paid to redeem mankind. No one was kidnapped.

That is how ransoms work. Payment demanded or offered in exchange for the release of a captive.

As far as ransom demands go, it could be anything. If God is holding a captive, He can make any demand He wants in exchange for their release. I'm not arguing that.

I don't see how it is "common sense" that God would demand the death of an innocent, but it honestly does seem pretty in character for Him.

My point was that giving in to someone's ransom demands is not the same thing as atoning for a mistake.

 

[Overitall]

That is how ransoms work. Payment demanded or offered in exchange for the release of a captive.

As far as ransom demands go, it could be anything. If God is holding a captive, He can make any demand He wants in exchange for their release. I'm not arguing that.

I don't see how it is "common sense" that God would demand the death of an innocent, but it honestly does seem pretty in character for Him.

My point was that giving in to someone's ransom demands is not the same thing as atoning for a mistake.

Who was being held kidnapped? There's no mention of it biblically. Adam sold his right to eternal life. Jesus bought it back. The term ransom refers to the price of redemption. You're reading more into it than is there.

 

[Daisy]

Paul explained very well as to what we are held captive to and in whom our release lies...

"Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law." Romans 7:24,25

"For the law of the spirit that gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." Romans 8:2

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Who was being held kidnapped? There's no mention of it biblically. Adam sold his right to eternal life. Jesus bought it back. The term ransom refers to the price of redemption. You're reading more into it than is there.

Presumably the souls of all mankind were being held captive and human sacrifice of an innocent life was being demanded as ransom for their release.

Who did you think the captive was supposed to be in the ransom analogy?

 

[Overitall]

Presumably the souls of all mankind were being held captive and human sacrifice of an innocent life was being demanded as ransom for their release.

Who did you think the captive was supposed to be in the ransom analogy?

A kidnapped person can sometimes rescue themselves. Your analogy fails. It's got no biblical juice.

 

[Overitall]

Paul explained very well as to what we are held captive to and in whom our release lies...

"Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law." Romans 7:24,25

"For the law of the spirit that gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." Romans 8:2

Being held captive to death is the wages of sin. Jesus paid the price offering redemption from that condition. It still requires the acceptance of man for it to go into effect.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

A kidnapped person can sometimes rescue themselves. Your analogy fails. It's got no biblical juice.

What a kidnapped person rescuing themselves have to do with anything?

The analogy of of Jesus' death being offered as a ransom is explicitly stated in the Bible. It isn't my analogy.

I was talking about atonement, and then @Daisy randomly started talking about ransoms, so I just rolled with it.

 

[Overitall]

What a kidnapped person rescuing themselves have to do with anything?

The analogy of of Jesus' death being offered as a ransom is explicitly stated in the Bible. It isn't my analogy.

I was talking about atonement, and then @Daisy randomly started talking about ransoms, so I just rolled with it.

You brought up the term kidnapped. I'm just showing you the flaw in your analogy.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

You brought up the term kidnapped. I'm just showing you the flaw in your analogy.

The ransom analogy wasn't my analogy.

You are welcome to point out the flaws in @Daisy's ransom analogy to your heart's content.

 

[Overitall]

The ransom analogy wasn't my analogy.

You are welcome to point out the flaws in @Daisy's ransom analogy to your heart's content.

No, but your kidnapped analogy was all yours. I told you you were reading more into the term ransom than was there.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

No, but your kidnapped analogy was all yours. I told you you were reading more into the term ransom than was there.

@Daisy said that God gets to set His ransom demands, as though she were presenting some kind of new, insightful information. I pointed out that kidnappers likewise get to set their own ransom demands.

It still has nothing to do with whether or not it is "common sense" that someone can atone for their mistakes by letting someone else offer themselves as a human sacrifice to their own dad.

 

[Mulefoot]

@Daisy said that God gets to set His ransom demands, as though she were presenting some kind of new, insightful information. I pointed out that kidnappers likewise get to set their own ransom demands.

It still has nothing to do with whether or not it is "common sense" that someone can atone for their mistakes by letting someone else offer themselves as a human sacrifice to their own dad.

Yeah, I think the context is simply that death is the kidnapper.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Yeah, I think the context is simply that death is the kidnapper.

If God is the one setting the ransom demands, then God is the kidnapper in the analogy.

Not that it is a good analogy. It isn't. But it seems to be the best they could come up with.

 

[Overitall]

@Daisy said that God gets to set His ransom demands, as though she were presenting some kind of new, insightful information. I pointed out that kidnappers likewise get to set their own ransom demands.

It still has nothing to do with whether or not it is "common sense" that someone can atone for their mistakes by letting someone else offer themselves as a human sacrifice to their own dad.

You just refuse to acknowledge/own the failure of your analogy. I get it. It sounded good at first until I pointed out it's flaws. The Bible just refers to it as a cost to buy back what was lost. You could use the analogy of losing a treasured tool you owned and having to pay to replace it. Then I might have accepted that analogy. Jesus paid the cost (the ransom) for that lost tool.

Man cannot buy his way out of his condition. It took someone not born with the same condition.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Jesus only took part of man's make-up -- the flesh. His blood came from God making him free from the sinful blood that is passed down from Adam. Jesus offered up his perfect blood for sacrifice.

 

[Overitall]

Yeah, I think the context is simply that death is the kidnapper.

In death there is no way the person dead can do anything. When have you seen a kidnapped dead person being rescued? When can atonement by him be made?

 

[Mulefoot]

If God is the one setting the ransom demands, then God is the kidnapper in the analogy.

Not that it is a good analogy. It isn't. But it seems to be the best they could come up with.

I think that's correct in a sense.

 

[Overitall]

I think that's correct in a sense.

Even our criminal justice system demands accountability (payment) for crimes committed. Adam did the crime, dooming his offspring to a fate of eternal death. Jesus paid the cost allowing Adam's descendants to free themselves from eternal death. They still have a choice in the matter.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Even our criminal justice system demands accountability (payment) for crimes committed. Adam did the crime, dooming his offspring to a fate of eternal death. Jesus paid the cost allowing Adam's descendants to free themselves from eternal death. They still have a choice in the matter.

In our criminal justice system, I can't absolve Gengis Khan of his guilt by offering to let Alec Baldwin shoot me in the head. Nor would it be common sense for that to be how any justice system should work.

Looks like your analogy fails again.