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[W: #795] [W: #1002] The Trinity

Overitall

Overitall

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First, I’ll give the Orthodox definition of the Trinity. If anyone wants to share how they define it go for it.

The doctrine of the trinity states that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God and together, not exclusively, they form one God. The trinity is co eternal, without beginning or end, and co equal.

This I don’t believe the Bible supports. In this thread I’d like to open a dialogue over what is biblically true. I’ve been convinced of my position for decades, that whereas Jesus is divine, he is fully man having attributes of God, but not God in any way. It is my belief that mankind could only be redeemed by a man. If Jesus Christ is/was God then mankind has not been “legally” redeemed.

I'll contribute more of my understanding of this subject as the thread develops.
 
Jesus was the original hippie, and a dark skinned one too.

As for God, he is an invention by "the church" while the Bible is a book of fairy tales.
 
Something I always thought was significant when studying about the trinity...when Jesus was baptized, a voice came out of heaven, saying, “You are my Son, the beloved"...now think about it...if God were truly on earth being baptized, would He project his voice up to heaven and back so that those words could be heard on the earth? Would that not be misleading? Would God, who cannot lie, do such a deceptive thing? I don't think so...remember, that is a work of the Devil and what he did with the snake in the garden...

And something else to consider...if you were trying to teach me that two persons are equal, what family relationship would you use to drive home that point? Would it really be a father and son or is it more reasonable to use 2 brothers, maybe even twin brothers? But in teaching us to view God as the Father and himself as the Son, what message was Jesus conveying?
 
Daisy said:
Something I always thought was significant when studying about the trinity...when Jesus was baptized, a voice came out of heaven, saying, “You are my Son, the beloved"...now think about it...if God were truly on earth being baptized, would He project his voice up to heaven and back so that those words could be heard on the earth? Would that not be misleading? Would God, who cannot lie, do such a deceptive thing? I don't think so...remember, that is a work of the Devil and what he did with the snake in the garden...

And something else to consider...if you were trying to teach me that two persons are equal, what family relationship would you use to illustrate it? Would it really be a father and son or is it more reasonable to use 2 brothers, maybe even twin brothers? But in teaching us to view God as the Father and himself as the Son, what message was Jesus conveying?
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Excellent insights Daisy. I've thought about what you bring up for decades and can never reconcile the points you raise with a Trinity doctrine. Another one is when Jesus ascended into Heaven he sat down on the "right hand of God" not on the throne of God. Although the right hand is the hand of blessing, it doesn't give Jesus the same position or authority of God.
 
Overitall said:
Excellent insights Daisy. I've thought about what you bring up for decades and can never rectify the points you raise with a Trinity doctrine. Another one is when Jesus ascended into Heaven he sat down on the "right hand of God" not on the throne of God. Although the right hand is the hand of blessing, it doesn't give Jesus the same position or authority of God.
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Another good point, OIA...even after his return to heaven, Jesus was never spoken of as being equal to God...I posted this in the Tongues thread...

We believe exactly what the Bible says..."he gave his only-begotten Son"...numerous scriptures support this thought, even after Jesus returned to heaven...

"But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God" 1 Corinthians 11:3

"Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power." 1 Corinthians 15:24

"But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." 1 Corinthians 15:28

"Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God...God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name" Philippians 2:5,6,9
 
Overitall said:
First, I’ll give the Orthodox definition of the Trinity. If anyone wants to share how they define it go for it.

The doctrine of the trinity states that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God and together, not exclusively, they form one God. The trinity is co eternal, without beginning or end, and co equal.

This I don’t believe the Bible supports. In this thread I’d like to open a dialogue over what is biblically true. I’ve been convinced of my position for decades, that whereas Jesus is divine, he is fully man having attributes of God, but not God in any way. It is my belief that mankind could only be redeemed by a man. If Jesus Christ is/was God then mankind has not been “legally” redeemed.

I'll contribute more of my understanding of this subject as the thread develops.
Click to expand...
I had the Trinity explained this way: Water, Ice, Vapor. Different characteristics, different properties, still all H20. All co-exist simultaneously.

To say otherwise is to put God in a box, to limit his power.

I believe Jesus was indeed wholly man. Otherwise, if he was secretly God in disguise only pretending to be a man, he was perpetrating a fraud upon us. Nevertheless, he put his faith in God the Father and conquered mortal death, just as any of us can.
 
Daisy said:
Another good point, OIA...even after his return to heaven, Jesus was never spoken of as being equal to God...I posted this in the Tongues thread...

We believe exactly what the Bible says..."he gave his only-begotten Son"...numerous scriptures support this thought, even after Jesus returned to heaven...

"But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God" 1 Corinthians 11:3

"Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power." 1 Corinthians 15:24

"But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." 1 Corinthians 15:28

"Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God...God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name" Philippians 2:5,6,9
Click to expand...
Solid biblical scriptural support for a non Trinitarian doctrine. For me it's just makes no sense to believe Jesus Christ is God given so many verses stating he's just a divine man, the Son of God.
 
Food, shelter, and safety should be the only trinity we care about spreading to everyone.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
I had the Trinity explained this way: Water, Ice, Vapor. Different characteristics, different properties, still all H20. All co-exist simultaneously.

To say otherwise is to put God in a box, to limit his power.

I believe Jesus was indeed wholly man. Otherwise, if he was secretly God in disguise only pretending to be a man, he was perpetrating a fraud upon us. Nevertheless, he put his faith in God the Father and conquered mortal death, just as any of us can.
Click to expand...
The very fact that Jesus could be tempted by Satan shows he was his own person, with the free will to make choices...not being God, he could have been disloyal...but he chose to remain faithful and resist the Devil's tactics...
 
Daisy said:
The very fact that Jesus could be tempted by Satan shows he was his own person, with the free will to make choices...not being God, he could have been disloyal...but he chose to remain faithful and resist the Devil's tactics...
Click to expand...
Your thoughts here made me reflect on the fact that it took centuries for the Christ to appear. If Jesus was God, why the delay in his appearance? God could have appeared to redeem mankind earlier, but He had to wait for the woman that would fully believe to be impregnated. The "seed" in her had to develop into a full human being from her egg and God's supplied sperm.
 
Daisy said:
The very fact that Jesus could be tempted by Satan shows he was his own person, with the free will to make choices...not being God, he could have been disloyal...but he chose to remain faithful and resist the Devil's tactics...
Click to expand...
Exactly! And remember what Jesus was doing at the time of Satan's temptation? He was engaged in a forty-day fast, prior to taking up his ministry. It was preparation for what was to come. Why would Jesus need to prepare if the crown of thorns, the lashes and the nails could not really hurt him?
 
My religion classes when I was growing up never addressed the "Jesus is God, but God isn't Jesus" thing in a way I could understand. Anyone want to Try?
 
Daisy said:
Another good point, OIA...even after his return to heaven, Jesus was never spoken of as being equal to God...
Click to expand...

and yet he also forgave sins, something only God can do.
 
Caiman said:
and yet he also forgave sins, something only God can do.
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"But in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority to forgive sins on earth" Mark 2:10

And who gave him that authority/power? Jehovah God did...

"about Jesus who was from Nazareth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power..." Acts 10:38
 
Daisy said:
"But in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority to forgive sins on earth" Mark 2:10

And who gave him that authority/power? Jehovah God did...

"about Jesus who was from Nazareth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power..." Acts 10:38
Click to expand...

Was the authority given to Jesus or was it innate?
 
Caiman said:
and yet he also forgave sins, something only God can do.
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You can likewise forgive sins.

John 20:23 "Whose soever sins ye remit (cancel/forgive), they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.”
 
Caiman said:
Was the authority given to Jesus or was it innate?
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Jesus didn't receive the "holy spirit" (granting him authority) until after he was baptized (about 30 yrs old).
 
PoliSciPulse said:
My religion classes when I was growing up never addressed the "Jesus is God, but God isn't Jesus" thing in a way I could understand. Anyone want to Try?
Click to expand...
That's what this thread is about. The Trinity, imo, makes no sense in light of the numerous clear verses establishing who Jesus was -- the Son of God.
 
Daisy said:
The very fact that Jesus could be tempted by Satan shows he was his own person, with the free will to make choices...not being God, he could have been disloyal...but he chose to remain faithful and resist the Devil's tactics...
Click to expand...

@Overitall



That doesn't provide an answer.

All it shows is that Satan had tried to exploit the situation where-in God was human (Jesus).
Satan thought that because Jesus is human, He can fall into temptation.


Furthermore -

Actually, it was Satan who fell into a set-up. 😁


Jesus being in the wilderness to be tempted by satan, was a deliberate act!



www.gotquestions.org

Why did Jesus need to be led into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted (Matthew 4:1)? | GotQuestions.org

Why did Jesus need to be led into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted? What is the meaning of Matthew 4:1?
www.gotquestions.org
 
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tosca1 said:
Can you please explain why you say that.
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Man (Adam) caused the fall of man causing his spiritual death. Through the physical death of one man - Jesus, spiritual life - holy spirit was once again available. Thus man - Jesus Christ, redeemed man from his (spiritual) death.
 
Overitall said:
You can likewise forgive sins.

John 20:23 "Whose soever sins ye remit (cancel/forgive), they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.”
Click to expand...

That just refers to me forgiving those that did something to me. It will not get them into Heaven, just as I do not have the power to keep anyone out of heaven.

23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
 
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