[W: #795] [W: #1002] The Trinity

[tosca1]

@Daisy
@Overitall
@Revelation

Let the bold sink in. If Jesus is God why would it be said he loves the Father?

Daisy
Or prays to the Father?
Or says the Father is greater than he is?
Or only the Father knows the day and the hour?
Or he came, not to do his will but his Father's?
Or how could he be tempted when the Bible says God cannot?
Or even in heaven, he is inferior to the Father?

Oh Lol - they're back to these juvenile responses!




Did I see you bring up common sense in your conference?



Common sense this!





BOTTOM LINE:


JESUS WOULDN'T BE SAYING HE IS GOD IN REV 22...........................IF HE ISN'T GOD.

 

[Overitall]

Taking 2 or 3 scriptures completely out of context does not a trinity make, when there are literally hundreds that support Jesus is the Son of God, not Jehovah God Himself...

It's really a very insidious belief. Most Christians accept a doctrine they don't understand because like @Revelation they are brainwashed to trust their intellectual superiors. I look at it without any blinders on.

 

[tosca1]

It's no accident that @Revelation was confused by one of her posts where she edited one of my statements making him think it was what she was saying.

Oh, the dishonesty continues.......................


Anyway - if two don't have anything to refute my ULTIMATE EVIDENCE - the claim that Jesus had made about Himself - then, I'll just leave you be.



For now.


have a good day.




PS
I wish you'd stop giving me likes.
You don't like anything I said (based on what you tell @Revelation about me )........................therefore, it's hypocritical, to say the least.
Best if you withdraw them all.

 

[Revelation]

And the majority of the scriptures support our position and not Tosca's. Of course one would have to wade through a word salad to know her position. It's no accident that @Revelation was confused by one of her posts where she edited one of my statements making him think it was what she was saying.

doesn't take much to confuse me concerning theology some days.

scripture demands that we study to show ourselves approved unto God.

i commend you here for your work with the Atheists, especially Over seems to have the Brilliance to hang with them.

guess i don't have the Patience, it is more like arguing how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin? groan. science to me screams that 'God did it'; but they scream that complexity 'just happens'.

i don't think atheists believe that because it is logical. it isn't logical for there to be no cause, there has to be a cause for everything. they just don't want that cause to be God, so out comes the fancy arguments of the billions of years of nothing to do everything so to speak

blessings.

 

[Daisy]

I have posted this before, let's see if it gets pooed-pooed away for a 2nd time...

The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation; verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself. “The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God. The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.”

The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.—Compare Isa 44:6.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200000208#h=6

 

[Revelation]

You know a "High Priest" serves God, right? If Jesus is the High Priest then you just pointed to another scripture that goes against the Trinity doctrine.

each member of the God head has a purpose.

we just recognize Jesus as our high priest and the Creator mentioned in Genesis. God the Father and God the Spirit all have different occupations too. because they do different things doesn't IMHO make them less than God.

 

[Daisy]

doesn't take much to confuse me concerning theology some days.

Yet, Jehovah says He is not a God of confusion...

“Not a God of Confusion”

HOW could such a confusing doctrine originate? The Catholic Encyclopedia claims: “A dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation.” Catholic scholars Karl Rahner and Herbert Vorgrimler state in their Theological Dictionary: “The Trinity is a mystery . . . in the strict sense . . . , which could not be known without revelation, and even after revelation cannot become wholly intelligible.”

However, contending that since the Trinity is such a confusing mystery, it must have come from divine revelation creates another major problem. Why? Because divine revelation itself does not allow for such a view of God: “God is not a God of confusion.”—1 Corinthians 14:33, Revised Standard Version (RS).

In view of that statement, would God be responsible for a doctrine about himself that is so confusing that even Hebrew, Greek, and Latin scholars cannot really explain it?

Furthermore, do people have to be theologians ‘to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent’? (John 17:3, JB) If that were the case, why did so few of the educated Jewish religious leaders recognize Jesus as the Messiah? His faithful disciples were, instead, humble farmers, fishermen, tax collectors, housewives. Those common people were so certain of what Jesus taught about God that they could teach it to others and were even willing to die for their belief.—Matthew 15:1-9; 21:23-32, 43; 23:13-36; John 7:45-49; Acts 4:13.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989301?q=not+a+god+of+confusion&p=sen

 

[Overitall]

Nothing to add but agreed...

The devil spirits recognized Jesus Christ for who he was - a man from God, not God Himself. They were banking on THE DEVIL being able to tempt him into worshipping the Devil. They knew full well that THE GOD could NOT be tempted. But they also knew any man could be.

 

[Overitall]

each member of the God head has a purpose.

we just recognize Jesus as our high priest and the Creator mentioned in Genesis. God the Father and God the Spirit all have different occupations too. because they do different things doesn't IMHO make them less than God.

You have chosen to believe in the Trinity. I see no more reason to continue this discussion with you.

Go in Peace!

 

[Daisy]

You have chosen to believe in the Trinity. I see no more reason to continue this discussion with you.

Go in Peace!

Sorry, but I have to say I see it a different way...

“He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn around and I heal them.” John 12:40

 

[Revelation]

Sorry, but I have to say I see it a different way...

“He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn around and I heal them.” John 12:40

or you could say that we see thru a glass darkly today.

and i repeat, this is not a doctrine that is well understood. i feel that if all sides came and worked on this in good faith, then we probably would come up with the knowledge that Tosca has extolled

i don't know if i could come up with much more than that even if i worked on this all day today.

but i may give it some effort.

 

[Daisy]

this is not a doctrine that is well understood

By you, maybe...I understand it to be false, very well...

 

[Overitall]

Sorry, but I have to say I see it a different way...

“He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn around and I heal them.” John 12:40

Nah, we're on the same page. The only thing we might disagree about is when we've decided that nothing will persuade people like @Revelation to really stretch their paradigm to see things from a different perspective. He's fully committed to the Trinity even though elements of it bother him.

 

[Overitall]

or you could say that we see thru a glass darkly today.

and i repeat, this is not a doctrine that is well understood. i feel that if all sides came and worked on this in good faith, then we probably would come up with the knowledge that Tosca has extolled

i don't know if i could come up with much more than that even if i worked on this all day today.

but i may give it some effort.

How can a member of the anti Christ group ever find common ground with the likes of Tosca seeing that they have declared we are unworthy of her scriptural word salads? She's not here to have a discussion with us; she's on a mission to stop us from spreading "false teachings".

 

[Revelation]

By you, maybe...I understand it to be false, very well...

Daisy, i think i am just digging a hole on this one and need to hit the books, coming back with a bit more Robust understanding.

How can a member of the anti Christ group ever find common ground with the likes of Tosca seeing that they have declared we are unworthy of her scriptural word salads? She's not here to have a discussion with us; she's on a mission to stop us from spreading "false teachings".

again, i wish this was easy to understand. most christians stay away because of the difficulties involved.

for others a simple explanation will do, that probably best describes my attempts at this issue

 

[Overitall]

Daisy, i think i am just digging a hole on this one and need to hit the books, coming back with a bit more Robust understanding.



again, i wish this was easy to understand. most christians stay away because of the difficulties involved.

for others a simple explanation will do, that probably best describes my attempts at this issue

You managed to dodge another question put directly to you. If I didn't know any better (but I do) you're trying to avoid calling Tosca out for her bs. I think you know she shows the classic example of what trolling looks like but don't want to acknowledge it. That would put you in an ackward position towards someone you worship.

 

[Revelation]

You managed to dodge another question put directly to you. If I didn't know any better (but I do) you're trying to avoid calling Tosca out for her bs. I think you know she shows the classic example of what trolling looks like but don't want to acknowledge it. That would put you in an ackward position towards someone you worship.

Over, this is not a personality game.

every christian should attempt to be able to defend the doctrines of the faith no matter the difficulty.

i respect Tosca's vast knowledge of the many doctrines of the faith...........worship? no LOL

could we get off to other more profitable subjects? well i hope so.

 

[Overitall]

Over, this is not a personality game.

every christian should attempt to be able to defend the doctrines of the faith no matter the difficulty.

i respect Tosca's vast knowledge of the many doctrines of the faith...........worship? no LOL

could we get off to other more profitable subjects? well i hope so.

What subject are you confident speaking of, without the assistance of your god?

 

[Revelation]

You managed to dodge another question put directly to you. If I didn't know any better (but I do) you're trying to avoid calling Tosca out for her bs. I think you know she shows the classic example of what trolling looks like but don't want to acknowledge it. That would put you in an ackward position towards someone you worship.

we have a few people here such as you and Tosca, who are able to help the unbelievers. so i applaud you all.

a new one: Gozaburo appears to be made of the same cloth, a bigger issue here is atheism that can use a bit of debate. when an issue goes over our heads, then pass the baton on i feel to the next level up.

blessings.

​

 

[Logician Man]

Yet, Jehovah says He is not a God of confusion...

Genesis 11:7​

NASB
Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.'

 

[tosca1]

How can a member of the anti Christ group ever find common ground with the likes of Tosca seeing that they have declared we are unworthy of her scriptural word salads? She's not here to have a discussion with us; she's on a mission to stop us from spreading "false teachings".

@Revelation


For all my expressed mission in UPHOLDING GOD'S WORDS, I must say that I have explicitly embarked on very detailed discussions with you.
How can I not?
If my mission is to uphold GOD's WORDS.................................. I've got to show and explain what false teachings are!
That in itself means, I'll be getting into DISCUSSIONS! duh.



Like I said, you could have some comprehension issues.......................or that it could be, I am speaking in tongues to you!
How can you not recognize a discussion right in front of your face?


YOU COULDN'T TELL WHAT A DISCUSSION LOOKS LIKE?





Any sensible reader who'd read through all the pages here can easily tell that you're the one who's avoiding the discussion.
You're more into personal attacks, competition (with shades of envy and resentment........ every time Rev says something positive about my responses), and you've been dabbling in dishonest discourse.




I'm not saying you are an anti-Christ.
I'm saying you are being influenced by the spirit of the anti-christ (which I'd think would be Satan).
Just as Peter was influenced by Satan, which Jesus had easily recognized.


Matthew 16:23
Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me;
you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”



Competition and envy,
smears (manipulating other members to label me as a "troll,"),
referring to the Scriptural verses which I based my responses with, as................................. "word salad,"
malicious, deliberate misinterpretation of messages being given by posters every time you can't answer -
your focus are all merely on HUMAN CONCERNS.


I don't think you give squat to the subject matter you've proposed in your OP. Or at least, you aren't taking it seriously.
Thus - it is very much appropriate to say that you're being influenced by Satan.






I threw the ball at you! It's in your court.


REVELATION 22.

JESUS WILL NOT SAY HE IS GOD............................................IF HE ISN'T GOD.







In a discussion - YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO RESPOND TO IT!



You're not even making any attempt at addressing it!

 

[tosca1]

@Overitall
@Daisy



Mind you, as far as I'm concerned - you've already CONCEDED.
BY NOT RESPONDING TO THE EVIDENCE.



This TRINITY discussion is..................FINITO!


You just couldn't accept that.




What we have now coming from you and daisy..................................... are what one would describe as the, "death throes convulsions," of a sunk anti-trinitarian teachings.

Even as your ship is sinking, you two comrades are singing the "bravado" song, "we're not going down quietly!"

 

[Daisy]

@Revelation


For all my expressed mission in UPHOLDING GOD'S WORDS, I must say that I have explicitly embarked on very detailed discussions with you.
How can I not?
If my mission is to uphold GOD's WORDS.................................. I've got to show and explain what false teachings are!
That in itself means, I'll be getting into DISCUSSIONS! duh.



Like I said, you could have some comprehension issues.......................or that it could be, I am speaking in tongues to you!
How can you not recognize a discussion right in front of your face?


YOU COULDN'T TELL WHAT A DISCUSSION LOOKS LIKE?





Any sensible reader who'd read through all the pages here can easily tell that you're the one who's avoiding the discussion.
You're more into personal attacks, competition (with shades of envy and resentment........ every time Rev says something positive about my responses), and you've been dabbling in dishonest discourse.




I'm not saying you are an anti-Christ.
I'm saying you are being influenced by the spirit of the anti-christ (which I'd think would be Satan).
Just as Peter was influenced by Satan, which Jesus had easily recognized.


Matthew 16:23
Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me;
you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”



Competition and envy,
smears (manipulating other members to label me as a "troll,"),
referring to the Scriptural verses which I based my responses with, as................................. "word salad,"
malicious, deliberate misinterpretation of messages being given by posters every time you can't answer -
your focus are all merely on HUMAN CONCERNS.


I don't think you give squat to the subject matter you've proposed in your OP. Or at least, you aren't taking it seriously.
Thus - it is very much appropriate to say that you're being influenced by Satan.






I threw the ball at you! It's in your court.


REVELATION 22.

JESUS WILL NOT SAY HE IS GOD............................................IF HE ISN'T GOD.







In a discussion - YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO RESPOND TO IT!



You're not even making any attempt at addressing it!

lol...

 

[Daisy]

@Overitall
@Daisy



Mind you, as far as I'm concerned - you've already CONCEDED.
BY NOT RESPONDING TO THE EVIDENCE.



This TRINITY discussion is..................FINITO!


You just couldn't accept that.




What we have now coming from you and daisy..................................... are what one would describe as the, "death throes convulsions," of a sunk anti-trinitarian teachings.

Even as your ship is sinking, you two comrades are singing the "bravado" song, "we're not going down quietly!"

lol...backatcha...bye...

 

[tosca1]

I have posted this before, let's see if it gets pooed-pooed away for a 2nd time...

The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation;

HAHAHAHA

What did I say?
What have I expected to come from DAISY? THERE ARE MANY SPEAKERS IN THE CHAPTER!


Listen up, everyone!
I'm glad daisy brought this up again.
Indeed, there are several speakers in this chapter.
Let me explain it one more time.



NOTE: Those enclosed in parenthesis explains who is speaking and/or to whom).




Revelation 22

6 And he (the ANGEL) said to me (JOHN), “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”




(Line 7 is the first part of the angel's message to John)

7 “And behold, I am (JESUS) coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”





(Line 8 indicates the testimony of John - of the message/vision that was sent to John)

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,


(The delivery of the message was interrupted at this point when John began to worship the angel and the angel stopped John from worshipping him)

9 but he (ANGEL) said to me (JOHN), “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”





(the angel went on to deliver the rest of the message)



10 And he (ANGEL) said to me (JOHN),

(Line 10 to line 16, the angel quoted Jesus - verbatim)


“Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”

12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”


14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”




The important lines in this chapter is line 13 and line 16, since these are the lines that clearly show Jesus revealing His true identity: GOD.



So you see - even if there are three speakers (as Jesus was quoted verbatim), nothing changes with the declaration of Jesus.
Jesus still says, HE IS GOD!