[W:682] Israel is committing the crime of apartheid, rights group says

[JacksinPA]

Israel is committing the crime of apartheid, rights group says

Human Rights Watch calls on international criminal court to investigate ‘systematic discrimination’ against Palestinians

www.theguardian.com

Human Rights Watch calls on international criminal court to investigate ‘systematic discrimination’ against Palestinians

Human Rights Watch has accused Israeli officials of committing the crimes of apartheid and persecution, claiming the government enforces an overarching policy to “maintain the domination by Jewish Israelis over Palestinians”.
In a report released on Tuesday, the New York-based advocacy group became the first major international rights body to level such allegations. It said that after decades of warnings that an entrenched hold over Palestinian life could lead to apartheid, it had found that the “threshold” had been crossed.

“This is the starkest finding Human Rights Watch has reached on Israeli conduct in the 30 years we’ve been documenting abuses on the ground there,” said Omar Shakir, the group’s Israel and Palestine director. Shakir said his organisation had never before directly accused Israeli officials of crimes against humanity.
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I thought these people would have learned something along the way but I guess not.

​

 

[Aunt Antifa]

Israel is an apartheid state. They are not a “little democracy.” They’re currently one of the biggest garbage countries in the world and it’s a stain on us that we don’t leverage our handouts to that country by making them act more like a democracy.

But then again, we babble about radical Islamic terror while American presidents open their mouths wide to accept whatever the Saudis wish to shove into them.

 

[Phys251]

Israel is committing the crime of apartheid, rights group says

Human Rights Watch calls on international criminal court to investigate ‘systematic discrimination’ against Palestinians

www.theguardian.com

Human Rights Watch calls on international criminal court to investigate ‘systematic discrimination’ against Palestinians

Human Rights Watch has accused Israeli officials of committing the crimes of apartheid and persecution, claiming the government enforces an overarching policy to “maintain the domination by Jewish Israelis over Palestinians”.
In a report released on Tuesday, the New York-based advocacy group became the first major international rights body to level such allegations. It said that after decades of warnings that an entrenched hold over Palestinian life could lead to apartheid, it had found that the “threshold” had been crossed.

“This is the starkest finding Human Rights Watch has reached on Israeli conduct in the 30 years we’ve been documenting abuses on the ground there,” said Omar Shakir, the group’s Israel and Palestine director. Shakir said his organisation had never before directly accused Israeli officials of crimes against humanity.
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I thought these people would have learned something along the way but I guess not.

​

​

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Israel needs to let Palestine be free, either by independence or by giving them the political rights that they deserve.

And I don't wanna hear any BUT WHADDABOUT HAMAS crap from anyone. Desperate people are much more likely to support desperate causes.

 

[JacksinPA]

Israel needs to let Palestine be free, either by independence or by giving them the political rights that they deserve.

And I don't wanna hear any BUT WHADDABOUT HAMAS crap from anyone. Desperate people are much more likely to support desperate causes.

The Jews want their Promised Land & they don't want the people who live there now.

 

[Captain America]

Not my circus. Not my monkeys.

I wish the U.S. would "cancel" Israel and just let them fend for themselves. How one little piss-ant country can cause so much world disruption is beyond me.

Let them fight it out on their own. Last man standing turn out the light.

 

[Phys251]

The Jews want their Promised Land & they don't want the people who live there now.

The proposal that most nearly matches how I want our relationship with Israel to work is our supporting the Iron Dome and nothing more.

 

[Fledermaus]

Israel needs to let Palestine be free, either by independence or by giving them the political rights that they deserve.

And I don't wanna hear any BUT WHADDABOUT HAMAS crap from anyone. Desperate people are much more likely to support desperate causes.

The Israelis took the step of turning over Gaza to the Palestinians....

Which in turn became an armed camp and base of operations to launch repeated terror attacks on innocent Israeli citizens.

Now, I wonder why Israel doesn't release more land....

 

[Chagos]

"Apartheid" denotes a system of segregation that a state imposes upon a group of its own citizens. That's how the state that formulated the principle and then applied it, first defined it.

Palestinians in the WB and Gaza are not Israeli citizens.

Those Arabs that are Israeli citizens (around 20 pct of the total of Israeli nationals) may be discriminated against in greater or lesser manner or (in just as many cases) not at all, but they're not shoved into specific townships like in S.Africa under the apartheid regime.

Alone by those simple facts HRW is showing to be completely moronic in its ignorant appliance of the term "apartheid".

 

[Evilroddy]

@Chagos

Apartheid South Africa forced the involuntary relocation of millions of Black people (Bantu) into ten territorial homelands (Bantustans) and then stripped many of them in four autonomous homelands of their South African citizenship en masse c. 1960 - 1980. So the requirement that Apartheid can only happen to citizens is not real at all. Therefore what the State of Israel is doing meets the definition of what apartheid was in South Africa with the exception of it being racially based. HRW is more accurate than you give them credit for in this case of definitions.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[What if...?]

The Israelis took the step of turning over Gaza to the Palestinians....

Which in turn became an armed camp and base of operations to launch repeated terror attacks on innocent Israeli citizens.

Now, I wonder why Israel doesn't release more land....

Dis they really? Like they could live their lives as they saw fit on their own land? Interact freely with whoever they chose, like free people.

Or did they just leave the prison and slam the doors and then point at the resulting situation is proof of why they deserve to have to live that way?

Not a single outside supporter of Israel on this issue would put up with a day of living as a Palestinian in Palestine.

And if they don't know that it's because they choose not to.

 

[Fledermaus]

Dis they really? Like they could live their lives as they saw fit on their own land? Interact freely with whoever they chose, like free people.

Or did they just leave the prison and slam the doors and then point at the resulting situation is proof of why they deserve to have to live that way?

Not a single outside supporter of Israel on this issue would put up with a day of living as a Palestinian in Palestine.

And if they don't know that it's because they choose not to.

Yes, they dis.

And Gaza is what Hamas has made it. There was the promise of a land of their own. All fallen by the wayside once Hamas took control.

UN aid stolen by Hamas. Building supplies siphoned off to build terror tunnels. A blockade to try to stop the rockets and mortars from being imported.

Not one nation in the world would put up with the constant barrage of terror attacks upon innocent civilians.

 

[Joby]

I am so glad the Arab Monarchies are ditching the Palestinian "liberation" struggle. After decades of support for this idiotic cause they're finally turning out the light. Now the Palestinian focus is squarely on anti-Israeli westerners as nobody in the region (save Iran) gives a damn.

Israel needs to let Palestine be free, either by independence or by giving them the political rights that they deserve.

All Israeli Arabs have the right to vote in Israel. As for the territories, how about setting up a democracy for the Palestinians so they can choose their own leaders on the one condition that they don't elect people calling for Israel to be eradicated?

Oh wait, Israel did that and...

And I don't wanna hear any BUT WHADDABOUT HAMAS crap from anyone. Desperate people are much more likely to support desperate causes.

The Palestinians elected a jihadist party explicitly calling for Israel to be eliminated!

This was after Ariel Sharon risked civil war in Israel to force every Jewish settler out of Gaza. And what was their reward? Jihad!

 

[Chagos]

@Chagos

Apartheid South Africa forced the involuntary relocation of millions of Black people (Bantu) into ten territorial homelands (Bantustans) and then stripped many of them in four autonomous homelands of their South African citizenship en masse c. 1960 - 1980. So the requirement that Apartheid can only happen to citizens is not real at all. Therefore what the State of Israel is doing meets the definition of what apartheid was in South Africa with the exception of it being racially based. HRW is more accurate than you give them credit for in this case of definitions.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

There is an increasingly worrying tendency to chuck terms around with abandon, while (equally) abandoning precision of definition with the same carelessness.

That I aim to point out the fallacies thus arising does not mean that I either support or condemn whatever policies any state in question pursues with regard to whatever group is mentioned.

Let there be criticism of policies by all means but then let's not muddy the waters with sloppy application of popular memes that serve only to whore for greater attention.

Invoking the 1970 South African Black Homeland Act as a base of comparison constitutes precisely that sloppiness.

If and when Israel proceeds to treat its Arab citizens in a similar manner, we can talk.

P.S. as already pointed out, Palestinians are not Israeli citizens and from my experience most of them wouldn't want to be either.

 

[Aristaeus]

The Israelis took the step of turning over Gaza to the Palestinians....

Which in turn became an armed camp and base of operations to launch repeated terror attacks on innocent Israeli citizens.

Now, I wonder why Israel doesn't release more land....

Israel never turned Gaza over to the Palestinians, they just removed Israelis from the land.
Israel controls the airspace, sea ports, water supply, imports and exports, and taxes, and have done since day 1 of their withdrawal.

 

[Fledermaus]

Israel never turned Gaza over to the Palestinians, they just removed Israelis from the land.
Israel controls the airspace, sea ports, water supply, imports and exports, and taxes, and have done since day 1 of their withdrawal.

Much of what you complain about is because the Palestinians turned Gaza into an armed camp and base of operations to launch repeated terror attacks on innocent Israeli citizens.

Tell me.

What requirements exist that a nation allow another entity to attack its citizens with impunity?

Oh, and isn't there a border with Egypt where the Palestinians are not so restricted?

 

[Phys251]

The Israelis took the step of turning over Gaza to the Palestinians....

Which in turn became an armed camp and base of operations to launch repeated terror attacks on innocent Israeli citizens.

Now, I wonder why Israel doesn't release more land....

Treat a whole group of people as terrorists, and some of them start to act like terrorist. Funny how that works.

 

[Phys251]

Right on cue, after I say this:

Israel needs to let Palestine be free, either by independence or by giving them the political rights that they deserve.

And I don't wanna hear any BUT WHADDABOUT HAMAS crap from anyone. Desperate people are much more likely to support desperate causes.

We get this:

The Palestinians elected a jihadist party explicitly calling for Israel to be eliminated!

Israel should give the oppressed Palestinian people the basic civil rights to which they are entitled. Until then, desperate people are much more likely to support desperate causes.

 

[swing_voter]

When you have a group of people who say you don't have a right to exist, what exactly are you supposed to do?

 

[Cardinal]

Israel needs to let Palestine be free, either by independence or by giving them the political rights that they deserve.

And I don't wanna hear any BUT WHADDABOUT HAMAS crap from anyone. Desperate people are much more likely to support desperate causes.

Israel has not in any sense of the word been engaging in good faith negotiations with Palestinians ever since Netanyahu came into power. But assuming they did, you're still left with the problem that what they need for their own security is something Palestinians have consistently been unwilling to cede.

They want the West Bank? Fine, but they can't be armed because then they would have a militarily strategic location for shelling Israelis. And obviously Palestinians don't accept that. So don't give them the West Bank. Well, okay, but then you don't have even the most basic framework for a peace agreement.

Netanyahu is a bad man who is in power because he's formed a coalition with the absolute worst people, and is therefore doing horrible things. But this is one of those situations where even if he were magically replaced with a good person doing good things, the situation really isn't improved a whole lot.

Fundamentally, there are four unrealistic solutions:

1. Jews leave Israel altogether (not gonna happen).
2. Jews agree to give Palestinians in their border equal votes (Palestinians then simply destroy the Jews).
3. Jews give Palestinians the West Bank and agree to let them arm themselves (Palestinians then shell the bejeezus out of Israel and Israel absolutely murders Palestinians back to the stone age).
4. Palestinians wake up one day and decide that the Jews aren't their mortal enemies.

There's a reason why I gave up on this topic after Netanyahu came into power and peace negotiations ceased: there are no good or realistic solutions. All you can do is maintain the miserable status quo, and everybody is unhappy forever.

 

[Phys251]

Israel has not in any sense of the word been engaging in good faith negotiations with Palestinians ever since Netanyahu came into power. But assuming they did, you're still left with the problem that what they need for their own security is something Palestinians have consistently been unwilling to cede.

Palestine has no freedom because Israel won't let them. The worst part is that Israel has backed the Palestinians into a vicious cycle: If they suddenly got freedom tomorrow, the hatred that has been induced in them would cause violence to go up, which Israel would counter with a horribly over-the-top response that I'm probably not allowed to describe here.

They want the West Bank? Fine, but they can't be armed because then they would have a militarily strategic location for shelling Israelis. And obviously Palestinians don't accept that. So don't give them the West Bank. Well, okay, but then you don't have even the most basic framework of a peace agreement.

Netanyahu is a bad man who is in power because he's formed a coalition with the absolute worst people, and is therefore doing horrible things. But this is one of those situations where even if he were magically replaced with a good person doing good things, the situation really isn't improved a whole lot.

IMO the two-state solution is dead. It's time for Israel to seriously consider the one-state solution.

 

[Cardinal]

Palestine has no freedom because Israel won't let them. The worst part is that Israel has backed the Palestinians into a vicious cycle: If they suddenly got freedom tomorrow, the hatred that has been induced in them would cause violence to go up, which Israel would counter with a horribly over-the-top response that I'm probably not allowed to describe here.



IMO the two-state solution is dead. It's time for Israel to seriously consider the one-state solution.

Palestine has no freedom because they can only see Jews as a mortal enemy to be destroyed. And refusing to give them their freedom causes Palestinians to view Jews as a mortal enemy to be destroyed.

This is the ultimate principle of riding the tiger. There is no non-catastrophic exit to this cycle.

 

[Aristaeus]

Palestine has no freedom because Israel won't let them. The worst part is that Israel has backed the Palestinians into a vicious cycle: If they suddenly got freedom tomorrow, the hatred that has been induced in them would cause violence to go up, which Israel would counter with a horribly over-the-top response that I'm probably not allowed to describe here.



IMO the two-state solution is dead. It's time for Israel to seriously consider the one-state solution.

The West Bank is now too fragmented to be a viable state anyway, and Israel has ensured that fragmentation.

 

[Phys251]

Palestine has no freedom because they can only see Jews as a mortal enemy to be destroyed. And refusing to give them their freedom causes Palestinians to view Jews as a mortal enemy to be destroyed.

True.

This is the ultimate principle of riding the tiger. There is no non-catastrophic exit to this cycle.

I think there is one, but it is way above my paygrade to know exactly what. I think that it's going to take forward-thinking leaders who are ready to create a future that works for both Israelis and Palestinians.

 

[Chagos]

Israel has not in any sense of the word been engaging in good faith negotiations with Palestinians ever since Netanyahu came into power. But assuming they did, you're still left with the problem that what they need for their own security is something Palestinians have consistently been unwilling to cede.

They want the West Bank? Fine, but they can't be armed because then they would have a militarily strategic location for shelling Israelis. And obviously Palestinians don't accept that. So don't give them the West Bank. Well, okay, but then you don't have even the most basic framework for a peace agreement.

Netanyahu is a bad man who is in power because he's formed a coalition with the absolute worst people, and is therefore doing horrible things. But this is one of those situations where even if he were magically replaced with a good person doing good things, the situation really isn't improved a whole lot.

Fundamentally, there are four unrealistic solutions:

1. Jews leave Israel altogether (not gonna happen).
2. Jews agree to give Palestinians in their border equal votes (Palestinians then simply destroy the Jews).
3. Jews give Palestinians the West Bank and agree to let them arm themselves (Palestinians then shell the bejeezus out of Israel and Israel absolutely murders Palestinians back to the stone age).
4. Palestinians wake up one day and decide that the Jews aren't their mortal enemies.

There's a reason why I gave up on this topic after Netanyahu came into power and peace negotiations ceased: there are no good or realistic solutions. All you can do is maintain the miserable status quo, and everybody is unhappy forever.

Where the whole shebang is too complex and thus complicated to be described in a nutshell, your above gets as close to that nutshell as can be achieved.

 

[Cardinal]

True.



I think there is one, but it is way above my paygrade to know exactly what. I think that it's going to take forward-thinking leaders who are ready to create a future that works for both Israelis and Palestinians.

The only solution is convincing Palestinians to not see Jews as a mortal enemy not to be destroyed. I'm perfectly aware that on its face that sounds hilariously one-sided, but when you dig into the circumstances everything circles back around to that one basic fact. If you can figure out how to change their minds, everything else falls into place.

But there's another way to look at this, because circumstances right here at home have started to make the situation in the United States resemble the Palesitinian/Israeli dilemma. Ever since Rush Limbaugh became the top radio host in the mid 80's, conservatives have been conditioned to see liberals in precisely the same way that Palestinians see Jews. It's been forty years, so like the Palestinians, the hatred for liberals is now generational.

So here's the ultimate question: how do you convince somebody raised since birth to see liberals as a domestic enemy to stop seeing them as an enemy? And remember, you're not convincing one person, but an entire community that identifies by their central struggle to destroy liberals.