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(W#4255)The trial of Kyle Rittenhouse for the intentional first degree homicide of 2, injuring of 1

That is such BS and you know it.

It's reality, whether you like it or not.

The hyper partisanship is failing all the non-extremists, you know the majority .

I agree. I've said a million times that we either need a "middle party," or we need either the Dems or the Republicans to pull their heads out of their asses and stop catering to their extreme wings.
 
I've been hearing about the jury foreman Karen argument for more than a week. People with a line to the courtroom have been reporting this character was there and could be a problem. It will be interesting if these rumors end up being true and all the people who claim the time to acquittal or hung jury was because the case wasn't cut and dry end up finding out that they're siding with an Antifa loving Karen and 11/12 and the other 92% of the jury just wanted to go home.

This is a suspicion I was only aware of a day or two ago. Frankly the case is cut and dry, but I ascribed the hang-up to those aspects that I thought Richard's fell short on, providing an "out" for those who were/are biased against RH.

If it turns out there is but one that accounts for the hold out, it would seem that a better closing and presentation wouldn't have changed anything. A poll of Kenosha found that 2/3rds believed KR was guilty, and 1/3rd said they wouldn't change their mind regardless.

But at this point a heavily compromised verdict or hung jury seems very likely. What else can a member of the jury do, other than break the rules and go around the foreperson to contact the judge if they are fed up with the foreperson's refusal to give up and announce a hung jury?
 
I apologize for my earlier comment. I watched part of the trial and I was particularly appalled by Matt Gaetz. The girlfriend of the second man who was killed was interviewed and she did a much better job saying what I meant. She said she felt bad for him because he was "a dumbass kid" (strongly agree) who was allowed to walk through the streets with an AR 15 during a riot. He had no business being there, somebody needs to be held accountable in some way for letting him be there. He picked the rifle out because it "looked cool" and "shot stuff for fun" and then claimed he went there to defend a business and provide medical aid. I think we all understand that a 17 year old with no experience other than shooting stuff for fun is not going to be welcome on your street defending a business. We are not that stupid. We do not allow that.

If he shot people in self defense or not, he wasn't a hero, he wasn't going in there to keep people safe, the very presence of him there was the cause of the tragedy that night. He was so poorly equipped to handle the actual situation involving aggression that he wound up on his ass shooting people in the street.

So I'm sorry that when I got caught up on this trial, my reaction was "Americans are morons." That part is for another thread. I understand this is about the trial. I was a little harsh, that's my 2 cents and that's it.
 
The judge said so. Probably because that's what he told police when they gave him the ticket, and they told the judge about the guy who worked for MSNBC following the jury bus through red lights.
So…again…stupid question: how do we know the driver worked for msnbc?
 
how does he manage to do that feat while the jury is deliberating?
The jury can only bring a verdict of guilty or not guilty, but a guilty verdict can only be based on existing laws, if it is not, the judge will vacate the verdict. A judge cannot vacate a not guilty verdict, and the jury can base that on just about anything.
 
The jury can only bring a verdict of guilty or not guilty, but a guilty verdict can only be based on existing laws, if it is not, the judge will vacate the verdict. A judge cannot vacate a not guilty verdict, and the jury can base that on just about anything.
The case would never be in font of a jury if there was no way a guilty verdict could be reached.
 
The jury can only bring a verdict of guilty or not guilty, but a guilty verdict can only be based on existing laws, if it is not, the judge will vacate the verdict. A judge cannot vacate a not guilty verdict, and the jury can base that on just about anything.

Theoretically, sure. Practically, very unlikely. Someone on the jury would need to come out and admit to it.

If the Judge in this case does not accept a guilty verdict from the jury it won't be because of anything the jury did. It will because of prosecutorial misconduct.
 
Theoretically, sure. Practically, very unlikely. Someone on the jury would need to come out and admit to it.

If the Judge in this case does not accept a guilty verdict from the jury it won't be because of anything the jury did. It will because of prosecutorial misconduct.
A judge can reject a guilty verdict for lots of reasons, there is almost nothing a judge can do if a not guilty verdict is found!
 
The jury can only bring a verdict of guilty or not guilty, but a guilty verdict can only be based on existing laws, if it is not, the judge will vacate the verdict. A judge cannot vacate a not guilty verdict, and the jury can base that on just about anything.
explain how the judge would know which laws the jury based their verdict upon
 
explain how the judge would know which laws the jury based their verdict upon
The judge read off all the charges the jury had available to them, and at the reading of the verdict they have to say which charge the verdict is a result of! They cannot find him guilty of J walking, because that was not one of the charges.
The jury can reject a charge for whatever reason they want, but cannot create new charges!
 
Verdict watch Day 4.

 
The judge read off all the charges the jury had available to them, and at the reading of the verdict they have to say which charge the verdict is a result of! They cannot find him guilty of J walking, because that was not one of the charges.
The jury can reject a charge for whatever reason they want, but cannot create new charges!
then you now realize the jury can ignore the law and offer up a decision which is inconsistent with what the law prescribes
or do you? based on your posts in both directions, it is not clear that you realize the jury can decide each count for any reason they chose ... including jay walking, if that was what they wanted to decide, despite that the charge was not one of jay walking
the point is the judge is NOT a party to their deliberations and it is therefor impossible for him to know what law they were or were not adhering to when performing their deliberation
 
After looking a the Rekieta law broadcast and reading AF Branca's take, there is a growing suspicion the holdup on this jury is mainly or entirely due to Juror 54, the female foreperson who seems to be the holdout against acquittal.

While this is just a suspicion, the various lawyers on R.L. have echo'd the same thought. One in particular is "Barnes" who has been very critical of the the defenses lead attorney, starting with the fact that he chose not to take jury vetting seriously. "Barnes" pointed out that he requires written answers to questions from the potential juror, not only for content but to help determine the personality of the juror - and from something she wrote he picked up on the fact that she capitalizes her K's in mid words...a habit associated with controlling and bossy behavior.

Anyway, in Kenosha there are various kinds of ethnic groups...the oldest and most affluent community being stock from Upper N.Y. and Scandinavian. In addition there is a larger later generation of working class of English, Irish, and a few Hispanic. These two groups are in tension, especially as the "oldest culture" while small in numbers still dominates social attitudes and is in tension with the larger working class.

The jury foreperson is likely a Karen type, of leftist political persuasion, being bossy, entitled, and status-sensitive. As we know, this kind of person would be very unlikely to ever vote for acquittal—her social group would necessarily know she had done so, given the unanimous nature of an acquittal.

And this type of person is likely to push for the leadership position of foreperson on a jury as it suits their controlling and entitled personality. And such this kind of person is usually outspoken and forward, insisting on dominating other people would defer to apparently higher authority.

(Indeed there has been one apparently female juror who on several occasions can be overheard being unusually conversational and relaxed with Judge Schroeder, her status equal.

Then there is the jury note from yesterday written by juror #54, the jury foreperson:



The note suggests that the person who wrote it is accustomed to issuing orders to underlings—personal assistants, staff, or household help—and here the note is being addressed in this tone to the trial judge as if the judge were a staffer being directed by the jury foreperson.

And then this evening we had the very unusual request to be permitted to take the jury instructions home, made by a single juror—a female juror.

I suspect that all of this conduct is that of juror #54, the female foreperson of this jury—who I suspect is precisely the kind of “mask Karen,” left-leaning, bossy, entitled, and status-sensitive juror that would be most likely to hold out against acquittal.

AF Branca noted during jury selection: “#54: Knows some of the witnesses named, but could set that aside.” Branca has also heard from sources in a position to know that when polling was done around jury selection, prospective jurors who knew any participants in the August 2020 riots–which would likely include some of the witnesses–tended to trend 75% against acquittal.

This is why Richards should have made the effort to challenge jurors that fit a profile. He didn't, now a jury seems stuck between a foreperson who refuses to acquit because of her politics, her personality, and her acquaintances with the protest participants.

If all that narrative gives you comfort then enjoy it. My assumption is the jury foreperson is the male who answered Schroeder's calls for them to come down to the courtroom each day.

I choose to not make this about any person's politics and instead that each one of them are following the instructions given, weighing the evidence and hopefully reach a verdict.
 
If all that narrative gives you comfort then enjoy it. My assumption is the jury foreperson is the male who answered Schroeder's calls for them to come down to the courtroom each day.

I choose to not make this about any person's politics and instead that each one of them are following the instructions given, weighing the evidence and hopefully reach a verdict.
The person on the other end of the phone is a bailiff, not a juror.
 
The person on the other end of the phone is a bailiff, not a juror.

I thought that was also a possibility, are you sure? Regardless, I think the whole handwriting, it's a bossy woman refusing to budge, is a way to trash jury members and unnecessary.
 
I thought that was also a possibility, are you sure? Regardless, I think the whole handwriting, it's a bossy woman refusing to budge, is a way to trash jury members and unnecessary.
I'm sure several times the judge said "bring them down." We also know there's a bailiff with them at all times (albeit outside the jury room.)
 
I'm sure several times the judge said "bring them down." We also know there's a bailiff with them at all times (albeit outside the jury room.)

Fair enough, all I ever heard was him saying was can you come down now please. Doesn't much matter.
 
Okay here's an article that describes the foreperson. It is in fact a woman, but I don't think her description of soft spoken falls into a bossy Karen type.

"The request was signed by the foreperson, a white woman in her mid-50s who appeared to be taking copious notes during the trial. During the selection process, the soft-spoken woman said she had driven through downtown Kenosha after the unrest to look at the damage. She said it would not influence her decision in the case."


Also appears to break a record for Richards on deliberation times. His old record was 18 hours.
 
Verdict is in.
 
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