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[W:3596] Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage (1 Viewer)

My point is that if we use two terms on the basis of one term being religious then we have written religion into law. Unless you have another basis that people were employing against using the term marriage for same sex couples.


Biology. Marriage WAS about improving the wellbeing of children that only heterosexual couplings produce. I can tolerate governmenmt intervention to improve the well being of children. I have a problem with government intervening to help gays feel better about their homosexuality.
 
Those civil unions were not federally recognized and did not have the same federal protections that marriage did. So not identical.

Since the federal government ALSO didnt recognize California same sex marriages, they were identical. I DIDNT SAY California Unions were identical to California opposite sex marriages, I said they were identical to California SAME SEX MARRIAGES. A distiction narrower than the wide side of the barn, so probably invisible to you.
 
What's a Constitutional right (in the context of this discussion)?

Equal protection under the law. I know you deny it but ANY discrimination at a minimum must be rationally related to serving a legitimate governmental interest.
 
That is part of the problem. Our government is secular. It requires a marriage license and has laws regarding married couples, children and survivorship. Aside from that it doesn't care if people are married in a $100K Church wedding, $20 at the County Clerk office or in a ceremony involving beheading a chicken and drinking its blood. Gays have been getting married for years. The problem was the US government wasn't recognizing those marriages thus denying them the same rights and benefits under the law as married straight couples.

Kentucky judge says it well


Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition, defines marriage as follows:

"A state of being married, or being united to a person or persons of the opposite sex as husband or wife; also, the mutual relation of husband and wife; wedlock; abstractly, the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence, for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family."

The Century Dictionary and Encyclopedia defines marriage as:

"The legal union of a man with a woman for life; the state or condition of being married; the legal relation of spouses to each other; wedlock; the formal declaration or contract by which a man and a woman join in wedlock."

Black's Law Dictionary, Fourth Edition, defines marriage as:

"The civil status, condition or relation of one man and one woman united in law for life, for the discharge to each other and the community of the duties legally incumbent upon those whose association is founded on the distinction of sex."

Kentucky statutes do not specifically prohibit marriage between persons of the same sex1 nor do they authorize the issuance of a marriage license to such persons.

1
KRS 402.020(5) and KRS 402.210 do contain references to the male and female of the species.

Marriage was a custom long before the state commenced to issue licenses for that purpose. For a time the records of marriage were kept by the church. Some states even now recognize a common-law marriage which has neither the benefit of license nor clergy. In all cases, however, marriage has always been considered as the union of a man and a woman and we have been presented with no authority to the contrary.

It appears to us that appellants are prevented from marrying, not by the statutes of Kentucky or the refusal of the County Court Clerk of Jefferson County to issue them a license, but rather by their own incapability of entering into a marriage as that term is defined.

A license to enter into a status or a relationship which the parties are incapable of achieving is a nullity. If the appellants had concealed from the clerk the fact that they were of the same sex and he had issued a license to them and a ceremony had been performed, the resulting relationship would not constitute a marriage.
Jones v. Hallahan, 501 S.W.2d 588 | Casetext
 
I have no idea what totem pole you have all these people on but just curious where are gay Asians on it?

Currently in the US, gays are near the top and Asians, more specifically orientals, are at the bottom. Probably somewhere in the middle.
 
Currently in the US, gays are near the top and Asians, more specifically orientals, are at the bottom. Probably somewhere in the middle.

That didnt answer my question
 
I have no idea what totem pole you have all these people on but just curious where are gay Asians on it?

Currently in the US, gays are near the top and Asians, more specifically orientals, are at the bottom. Probably somewhere in the middle.

That didnt answer my question

Dont confuse your inability to comprehend with me not being able to answer your question
 
Kentucky judge says it well


Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition, defines marriage as follows:

"A state of being married, or being united to a person or persons of the opposite sex as husband or wife; also, the mutual relation of husband and wife; wedlock; abstractly, the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence, for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family."

The Century Dictionary and Encyclopedia defines marriage as:

"The legal union of a man with a woman for life; the state or condition of being married; the legal relation of spouses to each other; wedlock; the formal declaration or contract by which a man and a woman join in wedlock."

Black's Law Dictionary, Fourth Edition, defines marriage as:

"The civil status, condition or relation of one man and one woman united in law for life, for the discharge to each other and the community of the duties legally incumbent upon those whose association is founded on the distinction of sex."

Kentucky statutes do not specifically prohibit marriage between persons of the same sex1 nor do they authorize the issuance of a marriage license to such persons.

1
KRS 402.020(5) and KRS 402.210 do contain references to the male and female of the species.

Marriage was a custom long before the state commenced to issue licenses for that purpose. For a time the records of marriage were kept by the church. Some states even now recognize a common-law marriage which has neither the benefit of license nor clergy. In all cases, however, marriage has always been considered as the union of a man and a woman and we have been presented with no authority to the contrary.

It appears to us that appellants are prevented from marrying, not by the statutes of Kentucky or the refusal of the County Court Clerk of Jefferson County to issue them a license, but rather by their own incapability of entering into a marriage as that term is defined.

A license to enter into a status or a relationship which the parties are incapable of achieving is a nullity. If the appellants had concealed from the clerk the fact that they were of the same sex and he had issued a license to them and a ceremony had been performed, the resulting relationship would not constitute a marriage.
Jones v. Hallahan, 501 S.W.2d 588 | Casetext

Thanks, but completely irrelevant to my point.

Since we're on irrelevant points, are you from Kentucky? The state where a 40 year old man could marry a 14 year old girl until just last year? Now he has to wait until she's 16.
 
It shows that the government instituion of marriage is secular, not religious. Its biology.

Dude, your own post pointed out how marriage is religious. There is not "government institution of marriage". As my post point pointed out that government's only interest is to make some cash and provide some legal rules to protect women (at the time, now it's both parties) and, especially, children. Some people want government to get out of the "marriage business" all together, but things like survivorship and children still need legal coverage.
 
That wouldnt do anything to win more "respect and dignity" for gays which is what gay marriage is all about.

this statement will never be true :shrug:
 
1.) Biology. Marriage WAS about improving the wellbeing of children that only heterosexual couplings produce.
2.) I can tolerate governmenmt intervention to improve the well being of children.
3.) I have a problem with government intervening to help gays feel better about their homosexuality.

1.) Biology is factually meaningless to legal marriage contract no matter your feelings
2.) your tolerance of equal rights is also meaningless and not needed, it exists without you
3.) theres an easy solution to your problem then, stop makign it up and you wont have it any more :shrug:
 
Since the federal government ALSO didnt recognize California same sex marriages, they were identical. I DIDNT SAY California Unions were identical to California opposite sex marriages, I said they were identical to California SAME SEX MARRIAGES. A distiction narrower than the wide side of the barn, so probably invisible to you.

You will continue to be wrong and lose this argument because the conversations you jumped into had context and therefore your original claim is and remains factually wrong. Hence why like what 5 posters have pointed this out already.
 
Tell that to those who so vehemently deny it.

Why? I'm not denying it, and I'm debating you. FWIW, you cliipped most of my point. If you'd like to address it, that would be nice:

"So if you want to be technical, it's about equal access for same sex couples to the "inequality" of marriage. But we all understand this, so why are you pointing this out? If 'marriage' didn't entitle a couple to 'inequality' it would be pointless to marry and have it recognized by the state. We all know it's not pointless, and it's why many couples marry - to access that inequality!

So all you've done is create a new set of goal posts for us to kick to, as a way to divert attention from the original goal posts. It's not an honest way to debate."

That wouldnt do anything to win more "respect and dignity" for gays which is what gay marriage is all about.

More to the point, doing that would be stupid straight people cutting their nose off to spite their face, as my dad used to say.

As to the point of gay marriage, I've addressed that point with you and you ignored it. If it's about "respect and dignity" so what? Making SSM available infringes on one one's rights, does not impact straight marriage at all, doesn't diminish the role of marriage in fostering families because it doesn't change straight marriage, so why do you care and why should anyone else care? Is there some reason you'd want to deny gay people the same respect and dignity with regard to their relationships that straight people are awarded?

And it's about more than "respect and dignity" because if you're married you know that the benefits are real, more than emotions. Healthcare is a big one - the spouse is presumed to be able to speak for the other spouse should he or she be incapacitated, are 'family' for purposes of visitation, and more. Inheritance is another - no matter what my will says in TN (absent a prenup), my wife gets 1/3 of the estate should I die, and no matter what hers says, I get 1/3 should she die. When it comes to children, the advantages are many and also important, and gay people do have children, whether you want to admit it and deal with it, or not.

But the point is even if we accept your false premise - it's just about dignity - that's not an argument against doing it. Quite the opposite in my view - there is no reason for society to withhold from same sex committed couples the dignity and respect society affords opposite sex couples.
 
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Dude, your own post pointed out how marriage is religious. .

Again

Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition, defines marriage as follows:

"A state of being married, or being united to a person or persons of the opposite sex as husband or wife; also, the mutual relation of husband and wife; wedlock; abstractly, the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence, ."

The Century Dictionary and Encyclopedia defines marriage as:

"The legal union of a man with a woman for life; the state or condition of being married; the legal relation of spouses to each other; wedlock; the formal declaration or contract by which a man and a woman join in wedlock."

Black's Law Dictionary, Fourth Edition, defines marriage as:

"The civil status, condition or relation of one man and one woman united in law for life, for the discharge to each other and the community of the duties legally incumbent upon those whose association is founded on the distinction of sex."


NOTHING to do with the religion. "for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family". Marriage was limited to men and women because only a coupling which includes a man and a woman produces children
 
Currently in the US, gays are near the top and Asians, more specifically orientals, are at the bottom. Probably somewhere in the middle.

LMAO this is pure conspiracy theory insanity.
 
Why? I'm not denying it, and I'm debating you. FWIW, you cliipped most of my point. If you'd like to address it, that would be nice:

"So if you want to be technical, it's about equal access for same sex couples to the "inequality" of marriage.

Two brothers are of the same sex and prohibited from marriage in 50 states because gay marriage is about winning more "respect and dignity" for the gays
 
It shows that the government instituion of marriage is secular, not religious. Its biology.

no matter how many times you repeat this retarded clai it will never be true/
Biology has nothing to do with legal marriage.
 
gay marriage is about winning more "respect and dignity" for the gays

another statement that is factually false and has no facts to support it and make it true.
 
Again

Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition, defines marriage as follows:

"A state of being married, or being united to a person or persons of the opposite sex as husband or wife; also, the mutual relation of husband and wife; wedlock; abstractly, the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence, ."

The Century Dictionary and Encyclopedia defines marriage as:

"The legal union of a man with a woman for life; the state or condition of being married; the legal relation of spouses to each other; wedlock; the formal declaration or contract by which a man and a woman join in wedlock."

Black's Law Dictionary, Fourth Edition, defines marriage as:

"The civil status, condition or relation of one man and one woman united in law for life, for the discharge to each other and the community of the duties legally incumbent upon those whose association is founded on the distinction of sex."


NOTHING to do with the religion. "for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family". Marriage was limited to men and women because only a coupling which includes a man and a woman produces children
"joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence". You should consider what that means and which part is government and which is not.
 
lets review the list of things factually meaningless to legal marriage (straight and gay)



1.) religion
2.) biology
3.) bigotry
4.) snowflake feelings of it being icky
5.) subjective morals

any questions? lol
 
Biology. Marriage WAS about improving the wellbeing of children that only heterosexual couplings produce. I can tolerate governmenmt intervention to improve the well being of children. I have a problem with government intervening to help gays feel better about their homosexuality.

What government intervention are you talking about? Specifically?

And if it's all about children, we should condition the unspecified interventions on having children, but we do not. More than anything, a 'marriage' is a standardized contract that spells out rights and obligations with regard to things like inheritance, healthcare, debts, and the distribution of assets upon separation, alimony, and more. There are also a bunch of provisions dealing with children, if the couple has them, but the rest applies without regard to children.

Survivor benefits such as for SS recognize that one spouse may spend most of a career raising children, out of the workforce, and so allows them to benefit from the working life of the working spouse. But we don't care if the spouse in fact raised any children, and often both spouses work even with children. Should we change that? If so, write your congressman!
 
this statement will never be true :shrug:

From the gay California Judge. All about respect and dignity for gays.

the current California statutes realistically must be viewed as discriminating against gay persons on the basis of their homosexual orientation….

entitled to the same respect and dignity accorded a union traditionally designated as marriage...

couple's right to have their family relationship accorded dignity and respect equal to that accorded other officially recognized families,...

designation of "marriage" exclusively for opposite-sex couples poses at least a serious risk of denying the family relationship of same-sex couples such equal dignity and respect....

same-sex couple's fundamental interest in having their family relationship accorded the same respect and dignity enjoyed by an opposite-sex couple....

gay individuals are entitled to the same legal rights and the same respect {Page 43 Cal.4th 822} and dignity afforded all other individuals...


the right of same-sex couples to have their official family relationship accorded the same dignity, respect, and stature as that accorded to all other officially recognized family relationships....

by reserving the historic and highly respected designation of marriage exclusively to opposite-sex couples while offering same-sex couples only the new and unfamiliar designation of domestic partnership -- pose a serious risk of denying the official family relationship of same-sex couples the equal dignity and respect that is a core element of the constitutional right to marry....

right of an individual and a couple to have their own official family relationship accorded respect and dignity equal to that accorded the family relationship of other couples....

the state's assignment of a different name to the couple's relationship poses a risk that the different name itself will have the effect of denying such couple's relationship the equal respect and dignity to which the couple is constitutionally entitled....

the right of those couples to have their family relationship accorded respect and dignity equal to that accorded the family relationship of opposite-sex couples....

fundamental interest of same-sex {Page 43 Cal.4th 847} couples in having their official family relationship accorded dignity and respect equal to that conferred upon the family relationship of opposite-sex couples....
 

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