[W:296] God favor’s Biden???

[mrjurrs]

What is "assumes facts?"

Don't you know Biden's platform?

I know Biden's platform, I don't know there is a god that you refer to.

 

[Exquisitor]

So if “god” picked Trump over Clinton, then obviously “god” picked Biden over Trump.

Right?

Yes, we did have to convince God to get Biden elected.

 

[RAMOSS]

But, Mr. Person, isn't it logical to take into account that there might be some things we don't understand?

I love science, especially the stuff on the "cutting edge" of physics (I don't understand much of it, but I like it). One of my favorite lines concerning science is from a book about Einstein. It's the last line of chapter talking about when he first decided to pursue his ideas about Relativity: "If he were to find out how the universe works, he could take nothing for granted--not even Newton." Likewise, we can't allow the current limits of science box us in.

And, Mr. Person, it's not "silly" for you to apply logic to faith--God gave us logic to come up with ways to solve our problems and to live better, a goal which is shared by God, as well. We just have to remember that God's logic sometimes extends far beyond what we are able to comprehend--which is where faith comes in.

Well.. there might be things we don't understand. However, to say something is so because we don't understand it is the logical fallacy known as 'argument from ignorance'. To invoke something that is untestable, and in fact, not even definable in a meaningful manner is not reasonable. While we should not take things for granted, neither should we make conclusions about the unknown either. To make a claim to others about God therefore is not logical, even it is a personal belief. Because God can not be even defined, to use God as an explanation is null and void.

Can you define WHAT God is, without referring in pure metaphysical/conceptual terms, or referring to actions that God supposedly did? What is the substance of god? I have heard people say 'God is spirit', but then when asked 'what is spirit' it breaks down. Or 'God is love', .. but love is metaphysical/conceptual, so that explains nothing.

 

[Dragonfly]

God is obtainable through faith, because faith shows more love than proof.

Faith is no guarantee for truth.
Faith can lead to lies.
Faith can lead to deception.
Faith can lead to death.

Simply having faith in something in no way makes it legitimate, true, real, or logical.

Faith is not the yard stick you want to measure anything with.

 

[calamity]

Faith is no guarantee for truth.
Faith can lead to lies.
Faith can lead to deception.
Faith can lead to death.

Simply having faith in something in no way makes it legitimate, true, real, or logical.

Faith is not the yard stick you want to measure anything with.

I always look at it like this. If faith is harmless, say when you pray for someone's health or hold onto the thought that you may see a loved one again in some mythical heaven, then it's fine. When faith becomes criminal, say when you use faith to strip away someone's civil rights, then it is obviously evil.

 

[Emily L]

RAMOSS said:

Well.. there might be things we don't understand. However, to say something is so because we don't understand it is the logical fallacy known as 'argument from ignorance'. To invoke something that is untestable, and in fact, not even definable in a meaningful manner is not reasonable. While we should not take things for granted, neither should we make conclusions about the unknown either. To make a claim to others about God therefore is not logical, even it is a personal belief. Because God can not be even defined, to use God as an explanation is null and void.

Can you define WHAT God is, without referring in pure metaphysical/conceptual terms, or referring to actions that God supposedly did? What is the substance of god? I have heard people say 'God is spirit', but then when asked 'what is spirit' it breaks down. Or 'God is love', .. but love is metaphysical/conceptual, so that explains nothing.

Ramoss, what you are saying is perfectly logical. We always want to define things in familiar terms. Unfortunately, all the familiar terms that I would like to use don't fit into the restrictions you have (fairly) put on it. That's my own fault, but it also meshes into my belief that the existence of God can't be proven in the same way we might prove that light can travel at 186,000 miles per second, that water contains hydrogen, or that Rachel Maddow wears black panties.

I don't know what the "substance" of God is, nor do I understand what a "spirit" is--and I can't even give you a definition for "love" beyond what it says in the dictionary. Clearly, God or His existence can't be perceived or defined through the usual, accepted means. But, Ramoss, when your wife or girl friend says she loves you, what kind of definition do you demand of her? You probably don't demand it--and that's why I don't demand a definition from God when I feel His love.

Ramoss, you might have noticed that I haven't tried to prove God's existence anywhere in this thread--all I've done is to try to defend my own beliefs. I freely admit that I often lack reasoning, but I don't think that's the case when it comes to my acceptance of the existence of God. I know this sounds corny and is the kind of thing you hear from religious people all the time, but when God touches your heart, that will be all the proof you'll ever need.

 

[devildavid]

Dude... He created FIVE MILLION JOBS, MORE THAN A HALF MILLION OF WHICH WERE IN MANUFACTURING.

Unlike Obama, who overwhelmingly created part time jobs which did not pay a living wage, a decent chunk of the jobs created under Trump involved skilled labor, and paid decent wages. Hence why median incomes rose under Trump.

Speaking of...



Oh, lookie there. You're wrong again. Big surprise.

Real wages declined under Obama, and grew under Trump.

View attachment 67304525

Try NOT getting all of your news from CNN, MSNBC, and the HuffPo maybe?



Another line of propaganda you got from CNN no doubt.

*Pssssst* None of that is true.

I mean... Really. What, precisely, do you think Trump could have done differently? Lock the whole damn country down for eight straight months?

Good plan, guy. We'd literally have people starving to death in their homes, and COVID-19 would almost certainly still be around regardless.

Straw man argument. I didn't present a plan. Neither did Trump. The only plans came from individual state governments, with very little guidance from Trump. Thank goodness that the government response also came from the CDC and reasonable people like Dr. Anthony Fauci. Trump did his best to undermine these voices of reason. His "plan" was to continue business as usual which would have led to possibly a worse outbreak than there already is. Thank goodness for all the state governments that took action. Now if only people could follow the recommendations consistently we would be doing better. Making a big deal out of wearing a mask was Trump politicizing what is a public health emergency issue. That simple step would have most likely cut down on the spread within the White House. If you don't believe me, ask Chris Christie.

 

[devildavid]

I always look at it like this. If faith is harmless, say when you pray for someone's health or hold onto the thought that you may see a loved one again in some mythical heaven, then it's fine. When faith becomes criminal, say when you use faith to strip away someone's civil rights, then it is obviously evil.

Faith in imaginary forces is not completely harmless. It harms the mental faculties of the one with faith. Faith in general is fine, but faith in imaginary forces is always harmful to functioning rationally.

 

[Emily L]

Faith is no guarantee for truth.
Faith can lead to lies.
Faith can lead to deception.
Faith can lead to death.

Simply having faith in something in no way makes it legitimate, true, real, or logical.

Faith is not the yard stick you want to measure anything with.

Holy cow, Dragonfly! Faith is supposed to be a beautiful thing. Haven't you ever had a good experience with faith? Faith that the weatherperson is correct about tomorrow's forecast? Faith that your wife or girl friend will stand by you? Faith that the Brewers will beat the Yanks?

Faith is based on experience. Just as you have faith in the Brewers because they have beaten so many other teams, you can have faith in God because He has touched your heart and has done so many wonderful things. Faith isn't a sign of weakness, but of strength. It can give you confidence, can see you through tough times, can even give you a reason for living.

 

[devildavid]

Ramoss, what you are saying is perfectly logical. We always want to define things in familiar terms. Unfortunately, all the familiar terms that I would like to use don't fit into the restrictions you have (fairly) put on it. That's my own fault, but it also meshes into my belief that the existence of God can't be proven in the same way we might prove that light can travel at 186,000 miles per second, that water contains hydrogen, or that Rachel Maddow wears black panties.

I don't know what the "substance" of God is, nor do I understand what a "spirit" is--and I can't even give you a definition for "love" beyond what it says in the dictionary. Clearly, God or His existence can't be perceived or defined through the usual, accepted means. But, Ramoss, when your wife or girl friend says she loves you, what kind of definition do you demand of her? You probably don't demand it--and that's why I don't demand a definition from God when I feel His love.

Ramoss, you might have noticed that I haven't tried to prove God's existence anywhere in this thread--all I've done is to try to defend my own beliefs. I freely admit that I often lack reasoning, but I don't think that's the case when it comes to my acceptance of the existence of God. I know this sounds corny and the kind of thing you hear from religious people all the time, but when God touches your heart, that will be all the proof you'll ever need.

Obviously you believe in a very particular God. If this God touches your heart, this means that God cares about you. My wife became an atheist because she heard of a tragedy that happened to neighbors and could not see a caring God allowing such things to happen. So obviously my wife did not feel God touch her heart and help her make sense of it.

Everyone has different views of God, and for some people your view of God makes no sense. Some people may believe in an absent or distant God, or a vengeful God. So apparently God doesn't seem to touch everyone's heart the way you say you have felt it. And that is the problem with this idea of God. Each individual deals with the concept differently. There is no God feeling that we all get and it is not the fault of the individual, it is the fault of the fact that there is not just one concept of God.

 

[devildavid]

Holy cow, Dragonfly! Faith is supposed to be a beautiful thing. Haven't you ever had a good experience with faith? Faith that the weatherperson is correct about tomorrow's forecast? Faith that your wife or girl friend will stand by you? Faith that the Brewers will beat the Yanks?

Faith is based on experience. Just as you have faith in the Brewers because they have beaten so many other teams, you can have faith in God because He has touched your heart and has done so many wonderful things. Faith isn't a sign of weakness, but of strength. It can give you confidence, can see you through tough times, can even give you a reason for living.

Everyday faith in things is entirely different from religious faith. If the weather forecast is wrong, it is no big deal. We know that even with scientific forecasting methods, weather is still veryhard to predict with precision.

Faith in people is a rare thing, and can be betrayed to devastating emotional impact. There are very few people that any of us can truly trust because there are very few people we know that well.

Faith in a sports team is fun, but meaningless. It may or may not be rewarded.

Faith in an imaginary entity who will not let us down ever is just making ourselves feel good based on nothing.

 

[Rhakron90]

Straw man argument. I didn't present a plan. Neither did Trump. The only plans came from individual state governments, with very little guidance from Trump.]

And that's a problem... Why??

Clearly, the Red and Blue sides of the country disagree quite vehemently with regards to how the virus should be handled. Let them dictate their own policy, I say.

I'm sorry, but a virus with a less than 1% mortality rate does not warrant an authoritarian central government crackdown. If you feel so worried about it, you can go lock yourself down. Leave me out of it.

His "plan" was to continue business as usual which would have led to possibly a worse outbreak than there already is.

All indications are that a situation more or less akin to "business as usual" is the proper response. The utterly draconian lockdowns enforced in most of Europe ultimately accomplished absolutely nothing, other than needless economic disruption.

Not only is COVID-19 still very much present in those nations, in many cases, its actually far worse than anywhere in the United States.

Sweden, by way of contrast, did not lockdown at all, and has seen far better COVID-19 outcomes than either most of its European peers, or the US.

 

[Emily L]

Obviously you believe in a very particular God. If this God touches your heart, this means that God cares about you. My wife became an atheist because she heard of a tragedy that happened to neighbors and could not see a caring God allowing such things to happen. So obviously my wife did not feel God touch her heart and help her make sense of it.

Everyone has different views of God, and for some people your view of God makes no sense. Some people may believe in an absent or distant God, or a vengeful God. So apparently God doesn't seem to touch everyone's heart the way you say you have felt it. And that is the problem with this idea of God. Each individual deals with the concept differently. There is no God feeling that we all get and it is not the fault of the individual, it is the fault of the fact that there is not just one concept of God.

Yes, David, there are definitely different interpretations of God, as is evidenced by the many different religions. All I know is how God has touched me, how He has spoken to me through the Bible, and how He has helped me through my life. When people have different experiences, I always listen and keep an open mind, because it might be that God is trying to tell me something through someone else.

There are so, so many things about God I do not understand--even things that other believers have no problem grasping. But whenever I feel overwhelmed by it all, I simply think about how Jesus sat with the children and said that each of us should come to Him as a child would. A child demands no definitions, no logical arguments--just love and acceptance. There's no grater feeling in the world.

 

[tosca1]

Jesus is my authority...I am on Jesus's side, the side of truth, for his kingdom and his kingdom only...he stated his neutral position to the Roman authorities when Pontius Pilate asked Jesus...

“Are you the King of the Jews?” John 18:33...

Jesus answered...“My Kingdom is no part of this world.” John 18:36...

Jesus would not get involved in politics, for his Kingdom was to be a heavenly one...he saw that people had many problems and that their lives were not easy...he really cared about them and wanted to help them but did he become a political leader? No...he knew that what people really needed was God’s Kingdom, or government...

"For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.” John 18:37

You're invoking "neutrality?"

Funny thing......you were focused beating on Trump! Only Trump!
Neutrality, takes on a whole new meaning with you................got it.

Thou shalt not be slippery as an eel...................... nor play the snakes-oil salesman with me.

Jesus is my authority...I am on Jesus's side, the side of truth,

I know you believe Jesus is not God Himself. Now, you've actually placed yourself in a quandary.


What are you saying, Elvira?

Jesus is your authority.......not GOD?
You saying, you're not on God's side?

Jesus is the side of truth, not God?

 

[Emily L]

Faith in an imaginary entity who will not let us down ever is just making ourselves feel good based on nothing.

But you see, David, you are applying your own experiences to me. Because you think that God is "an imaginary entity," then I must be worshiping "an imaginary entity." That's like me saying, "I can't understand why anybody would vote for a crook like [insert name here]." To the other person, the candidate is not a crook. Likewise, to me God is not imaginary, so your definition doesn't apply to my reasoning. Indeed, the question of whether God is real or imaginary is what we are discussing, so using either of our conclusions as an argument is kind of out of the ordinary. (It might work, though. )

 

[tosca1]

Jesus is my authority...I am on Jesus's side, the side of truth,

Talk is cheap. If what you say is true,

then.......................you should listen to Jesus!


Matthew 7
Judging Others
7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.



Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


He wants you to obey GOD! Read Matthew 7:21 again!
ONLY THOSE WHO OBEY GOD WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN!




....and do as Jesus tells you:


Romans 13:1-7
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.


1 Peter 2:13-14
Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.

 

[Overitall]

Ramoss, what you are saying is perfectly logical. We always want to define things in familiar terms. Unfortunately, all the familiar terms that I would like to use don't fit into the restrictions you have (fairly) put on it. That's my own fault, but it also meshes into my belief that the existence of God can't be proven in the same way we might prove that light can travel at 186,000 miles per second, that water contains hydrogen, or that Rachel Maddow wears black panties.

I don't know what the "substance" of God is, nor do I understand what a "spirit" is--and I can't even give you a definition for "love" beyond what it says in the dictionary. Clearly, God or His existence can't be perceived or defined through the usual, accepted means. But, Ramoss, when your wife or girl friend says she loves you, what kind of definition do you demand of her? You probably don't demand it--and that's why I don't demand a definition from God when I feel His love.

Ramoss, you might have noticed that I haven't tried to prove God's existence anywhere in this thread--all I've done is to try to defend my own beliefs. I freely admit that I often lack reasoning, but I don't think that's the case when it comes to my acceptance of the existence of God. I know this sounds corny and is the kind of thing you hear from religious people all the time, but when God touches your heart, that will be all the proof you'll ever need.

I applaud you for the thoughtfulness of your response to Ramoss’ questions. I was thinking of giving my own but then after reading yours I thought I could not put it any better than you. Sometimes it seems God defines himself through the way some of us relates to Him. He definitely seems to shine through your heart and that’s refreshing.

 

[Emily L]

I applaud you for the thoughtfulness of your response to Ramoss’ questions. I was thinking of giving my own but then after reading yours I thought I could not put it any better than you. Sometimes it seems God defines himself through the way some of us relates to Him. He definitely seems to shine through your heart and that’s refreshing.

Overitall, that's so sweet and inspiring! Thank you VERY much!

 

[tosca1]

I know Biden's platform, I don't know there is a god that you refer to.

Well - kindly look up and read the title and the OP.

The premise is on the assumption that God exists (Abrahamic God - because of the Evangelicals/Christians that voted for Trump in 2016, and the Jews who referred to Trump as the modern-day Cyrus)......

......................therefore, your opinion questioning the existence of the Abrahamic God, is irrelevant here.


So....I'll have to say goodbye for now since obviously we're not on the same page.......and, I have no wish to debate the existence of God with you.

 

[tosca1]

I applaud you for the thoughtfulness of your response to Ramoss’ questions. I was thinking of giving my own but then after reading yours I thought I could not put it any better than you. Sometimes it seems God defines himself through the way some of us relates to Him. He definitely seems to shine through your heart and that’s refreshing.

I had to scroll up to read Emily's post after I happen to glance on your comment.

Indeed - she wrote beautifully and gave a refreshing perspective. God shines through her message.....

 

[tosca1]

Overitall, that's so sweet and inspiring! Thank you VERY much!

Thank you too, for what you've written. This part is so achingly beautiful....

Ramoss, you might have noticed that I haven't tried to prove God's existence anywhere in this thread--all I've done is to try to defend my own beliefs. I freely admit that I often lack reasoning, but I don't think that's the case when it comes to my acceptance of the existence of God.
I know this sounds corny and is the kind of thing you hear from religious people all the time, but when God touches your heart, that will be all the proof you'll ever need.

 

[RAMOSS]

Ramoss, what you are saying is perfectly logical. We always want to define things in familiar terms. Unfortunately, all the familiar terms that I would like to use don't fit into the restrictions you have (fairly) put on it. That's my own fault, but it also meshes into my belief that the existence of God can't be proven in the same way we might prove that light can travel at 186,000 miles per second, that water contains hydrogen, or that Rachel Maddow wears black panties.

I don't know what the "substance" of God is, nor do I understand what a "spirit" is--and I can't even give you a definition for "love" beyond what it says in the dictionary. Clearly, God or His existence can't be perceived or defined through the usual, accepted means. But, Ramoss, when your wife or girl friend says she loves you, what kind of definition do you demand of her? You probably don't demand it--and that's why I don't demand a definition from God when I feel His love.

Ramoss, you might have noticed that I haven't tried to prove God's existence anywhere in this thread--all I've done is to try to defend my own beliefs. I freely admit that I often lack reasoning, but I don't think that's the case when it comes to my acceptance of the existence of God. I know this sounds corny and is the kind of thing you hear from religious people all the time, but when God touches your heart, that will be all the proof you'll ever need.

No, you haven't. I am just saying for something to be more than very personal, it would have to fit the criteria I put forth.

 

[Daisy]

You're invoking "neutrality?"

Funny thing......you were focused beating on Trump! Only Trump!
Neutrality, takes on a whole new meaning with you................got it.

Thou shalt not be slippery as an eel...................... nor play the snakes-oil salesman with me.








I know you believe Jesus is not God Himself. Now, you've actually placed yourself in a quandary.


What are you saying, Elvira?

Jesus is your authority.......not GOD?
You saying, you're not on God's side?

Jesus is the side of truth, not God?

That is a lie...I've stated many times that ALL politicians are as crooked as a barrel of fish-hooks...

 

[Daisy]

Talk is cheap. If what you say is true,

then.......................you should listen to Jesus!


Matthew 7
Judging Others
7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.



Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


He wants you to obey GOD! Read Matthew 7:21 again!
ONLY THOSE WHO OBEY GOD WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN!




....and do as Jesus tells you:


Romans 13:1-7
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.


1 Peter 2:13-14
Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.

lol...funny...

 

[tosca1]

Jesus is my authority...I am on Jesus's side, the side of truth, for his kingdom and his kingdom only...he stated his neutral position to the Roman authorities when Pontius Pilate asked Jesus...

“Are you the King of the Jews?” John 18:33...

Jesus answered...“My Kingdom is no part of this world.” John 18:36...

Jesus would not get involved in politics, for his Kingdom was to be a heavenly one...he saw that people had many problems and that their lives were not easy...he really cared about them and wanted to help them but did he become a political leader? No...he knew that what people really needed was God’s Kingdom, or government...

"For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.” John 18:37

lol...funny...

What's funny? care to explain?

You're actually saying, God isn't your authority but Jesus - did I miss a punchline somewhere?


See why God and Jesus has got to be One and the Same? You fell neatly into a trap!