[W:277] Florida's DeSantis moves to allow citizens to shoot looters, rioters targeting businesses

[Daddyo]

The net worth it takes at every age to be richer than most people you know

The typical American household has a net worth of about $97,300. Here's the net worth it takes to be part of the top 20% of Americans at every age.

www.businessinsider.com

You also know how much money I have in the bank? Like I said, you assume too much.

Your stats are for the united States and not the world.

 

[bluesmoke]

Still the best system. Keeps the most people out of poverty and alive and healthy. Like it or not problem or not its the best.

And can be the worst system when at the extreme, which how capitalism is being practiced for years and supported by such as Trump's tax giveaway of national treasure to the rich and large corps and the various virus stimulus that was supposed to trickle down to employees and the avg American but mostly went to the banks, the stock market and individuals and private business that didn't need the money, they already had the cash. The Dems fell for the virus flim-flam.

 

[bluesmoke]

I'm a 2nd amendment freak and I find your post disgusting. So what now?

Just wonder why you have to take the most disgusting angle simply because people want to protect life and livelihood from lawless violent thugs? Why does your mind believe that murder is in the hearts of others? Pretty sad.

I'm making a like and kind response of measured nature to what an AG said of a nature never said before. If you support what the AG said, you are the sick one. Deciding which in your mind, because the AG recommended you to, are the lawless violent thugs that you can lawfully, as implied by AG Barr, shoot on sight. So, when you view film of protest, do you see people there that would fall into that "shoot on sight" category? Would you do just that? Do you really believe that you would likely have killed people, based on what AG Barr has said and what you perceive of what you've seen and understand, if you were at such protest with a gun? IMO, you must answer yourself those questions. How many people do you think you would have or would have been by others rightly killed.

 

[Daddyo]

And can be the worst system when at the extreme, which how capitalism is being practiced for years and supported by such as Trump's tax giveaway of national treasure to the rich and large corps and the various virus stimulus that was supposed to trickle down to employees and the avg American but mostly went to the banks, the stock market and individuals and private business that didn't need the money, they already had the cash. The Dems fell for the virus flim-flam.

Your problem is with taxation not capitalism.

Personally trumps tax cuts saved my family thousands. The tax rate was killing my business taking more than 30 percent. Thats more than a third of every dollar. If you think its fair, for government who did nothing to earn that money or nothing to help my business, to get a third of what I produced, then frankly we have nothing furthur to discuss.

 

[Daddyo]

I'm making a like and kind response of measured nature to what an AG said of a nature never said before. If you support what the AG said, you are the sick one. Deciding which in your mind, because the AG recommended you to, are the lawless violent thugs that you can lawfully, as implied by AG Barr, shoot on sight. So, when you view film of protest, do you see people there that would fall into that "shoot on sight" category? Would you do just that? Do you really believe that you would likely have killed people, based on what AG Barr has said and what you perceive of what you've seen and understand, if you were at such protest with a gun? IMO, you must answer yourself those questions. How many people do you think you would have or would have been by others rightly killed.

Can you differentiate between a protest and looting and rioting? Are you so capable?

Personally I wouldn't use deadly force except to prevent death or serious bodily injury to myself or another. I support this law because it protects the innocent citizens from the violent ones. As a responsible citizen i have less than lethals at my disposal which might allow me to give a final chance to prevent the use of deadly force.

The only "sick" thing is defending those who riot and loot. Comparing lawful protesters to rioting looting scumbags who would destroy and steal someone's lifes work is sick. Arresting someone trying to prevent that from happening is sick.

What would you do if your life's work was about to be destroyed by violent people?

Please before you say insurance understand that getting money to replace what you have created is not a substitute. Your house burns down and them giving you money to replace it doesn't bring it back. You still lose. Now imagine that being your method of making money. It isn't the same and can never replace what you lost. Not to mention most businesses have no insurance for that type of loss. Most have liability only.

 

[bluesmoke]

Your problem is with taxation not capitalism.

Personally trumps tax cuts saved my family thousands. The tax rate was killing my business taking more than 30 percent. Thats more than a third of every dollar. If you think its fair, for government who did nothing to earn that money or nothing to help my business, to get a third of what I produced, then frankly we have nothing furthur to discuss.

Ditto if you think it's OK to give the rich and large corps a tax break, who don't need it, but nothing for those with less, like the 10% tax break for the middle class promise that Trump broke. Maybe a means-tested tax break would have excluded the large corps but included yours. I don't know. But regressing what was designed as a progressive tax system and widening the wealth gap is the outcome and thus seemingly the goal, to redistribute more wealth to the wealthy and large corps, because that's what is happening. If you think that's the way it should be then, ditto, we have nothing further to discuss.

 

[bluesmoke]

Can you differentiate between a protest and looting and rioting? Are you so capable?

Personally I wouldn't use deadly force except to prevent death or serious bodily injury to myself or another. I support this law because it protects the innocent citizens from the violent ones. As a responsible citizen i have less than lethals at my disposal which might allow me to give a final chance to prevent the use of deadly force.

The only "sick" thing is defending those who riot and loot. Comparing lawful protesters to rioting looting scumbags who would destroy and steal someone's lifes work is sick. Arresting someone trying to prevent that from happening is sick.

What would you do if your life's work was about to be destroyed by violent people?

Please before you say insurance understand that getting money to replace what you have created is not a substitute. Your house burns down and them giving you money to replace it doesn't bring it back. You still lose. Now imagine that being your method of making money. It isn't the same and can never replace what you lost. Not to mention most businesses have no insurance for that type of loss. Most have liability only.

At some point I might differentiate one from the other, protester, looter or rioter. The looter is stealing during a riot. A rioter is engaged in violent public disturbance by a crowd, even when limited to destruction of property. BTW, the point of your question I already brought up in my prior post. However, such legislation as DeSantis is proposing to expand the “stand your ground” law has a twist to it. It includes burglary within 500 ft of disorderly assembly. That would be much harder to discern than the other 3. Other than that, there is existing law in each state that applies to your right to defend you and your property against a rioter or looter regardless of such but as being simply someone on you property destroying your property or someone burglarizing your home, which law includes stealing property from the perimeter of the house. I agree with such law. I don’t agree with public official encouraging people to shoot whomever. That, I think, is sick and dangerous.

 

[CLAX1911]

What do you suggest, besides violence, to stop looters and arsonists from destroying local businesses?

Nothing, just pretend it doesn't exist that's what they've been doing so far.

It's not about right wrong it's about whether or not you capitulate.

With people on either side of the political spectrum, a person on the other side can't be right because they're on the other team. This is American tribalism. I think the idea of being split into teams is simply part of human evolution. That's why for so long people cared so much about sportsball. Now that people aren't into that anymore they've got to pick something else.

See sports ball is a distraction and now that it's not distracting people they're moving somewhere else for their need to be in a tribe. Before sports ball it was religion.

Have you ever come across vegans? For the most part vegans are just normal people that choose to eat a certain diet. But there are some that they are on a crusade. And it's the need to be on a team. It's not so much about what the team believes in our supports it's about anybody who's not on the team is evil or bad or wrong. We see this with a climate change cult too. Remember when they were parading around that mentally ill girl from Sweden. And if you didn't believe her nutty doomsday and conspiracy they told you how dare you treat a child so poorly.

They tried to do this same thing with that ding dong David Hogg from the Marjorie Stoneman Douglas shooting.

Their viewpoints are their identity. So therefore your viewpoints are your identity. It goes to that saying if the only tool you have is a hammer the whole world looks like a nail.

Sorry for my rambling.

 

[CLAX1911]

And gun nuts keep wondering why we want gun safety laws.

You don't want gun safety laws, you want gun ownership restrictions.

It has nothing to do with safety.

 

[CLAX1911]

Ignoring for the moment that (a) people can be concerned about more than one thing at a time, and (b) the notion that "Trump supporters" are "fine" with 20,000 deaths from SARS-CoV-2 is facially absurd, let's look at what this is suggesting: if we work ourselves into a frenzy ("lose our minds") over COVID, the riots and looting... will stop? Because that was the question.

Politics for certain people is more like a religion, or tribal warfare if you will.

Where the thought is should anyone disagree they are evil disgusting or unclean because what my tribe thinks is correct is the gospel truth. This is the kind of thinking that led to the witchcraft trials.

They're not interested in the understanding you. all they know is what you think is not what they think so therefore you're wrong. I've heard this referred to as disgust based thinking. It is a form of ideology. It comes from people who are not intellectually lazy because I don't think it's lazy to not want to evaluate to everything on its individual merits. I would say the better term is intellectually stunted. I engaged in disgust best thing a lot of the time and I have to say wait a minute I need to think about that. It's hard to do and the only way you can do it is to actively try.

In order to actively try you must question your orthodoxies. Politically speaking a lot of people don't want to do that and thus they refuse to.

So explaining to someone that says Trump supporters are fine with or themselves murdered 260,000 people, that we don't all think that is like trying to explain to a Puritan that just because teachable practices a little folk medicine does it mean you're all going to hell.

 

[CLAX1911]

Over 200,000 Americans, including seventeen thousand Floridians, are dead because of COVID-19 mismanagement.

do you think you could manage covid-19? How do you manage something like that?

You show me numbers anywhere nearly that bad from anarchist rioters, and I will immediately retract my point. Put up or shut up.

That's like saying thousands of people die of cancer so why would you be concerned about a mass shooting. Or in the third world millions of kids are taking advantage of so why would you be worried about child molestation.

When you have groups of people running around destroying property and even killing people that's a problem we can do something about. That's a problem we've done something about before.

Aha! Now we're getting somewhere. This was your (plural) motivation all along: More legalization of violence. For the worst among us, Trayvon Martin was just a trial balloon, to see how deplorable they could get.

This is only horrible if you're a pacifist I'm not a pacifist sometimes violence is necessary sometimes violence is good.

Pacifists do nothing but get conquered. So this concept that violence is always bad is the speak of someone who wants to be conquered.

nobody has to be for the legalization of violence violence is already legal. To imprison someone is a violent act. If we didn't inflict this violence upon child molesters and rapists and murderers that would be bad.

Self-defense whether with a firearm your fists or a knife or a vehicle is absolutely violence. In this case violence is legal and good.

So violence isn't already just legal it is prescribed by law.

 

[CLAX1911]

Yes, they are writing it loose, so that they can shoot Nwords that protest. They intend on the next couple waving their guns use them on citizens.

Well for you to think that the only people protesting are black is for you to show your racism.

Kyle Rittenhouse shot three protesters and I don't think a single one of them was black.

But yes if protest means you're going to come to my house or place a business destroy it or burn it down then I should be able to shoot you.

I have the right to my property protesters do not. And if the police aren't going to do it it falls upon the citizens.

All I've seen recently from this protest is limiting the police probably so that they can burn down people's buildings that they don't like. Also so the protesters can steal stuff without having to work for it.

To expect a business owner or a homeowner to just let you is absurd.

Basically put if you don't want to be shot to death don't break into other people's places.

And the possible response for doing that should be the loss of life. That's sort of threat not only keeps honest people honest but keeps borderline people honest and makes crooked people corpses.

I support this. I'm not interested in the rights of people who want to infringe on the rights of others.

 

[CLAX1911]

As I said in a similar thead (no rhyme intended), I agree that we need to do what we can to stop looting, but cops have special training to recognize certain situations before shooting, while the average person doesn't.

oddly I see this sort of statement all the time that police have some sort of secret special training that they absolutely don't have.

I went to Police academy I graduated in 2014, I served as a reserve deputy for a little under a year. There was never any special training to recognize certain situations. It was never available.

so I'm not going to say that it absolutely doesn't exist because I don't know.

But if it does can you name it?

For example, during an otherwise peaceful protest, some nut throws a brick through a store window. Among those who run toward the window is a girl who is trying to catch up to her boyfriend and pull him back. The owner opens fire. Several people are killed, including the girl friend.

police don't have training to recognize that sort of thing. They just aren't the owner so they don't have skin in the game.

Cops are trained to keep a cool head and shoot only if necessary and if the correct target has clearly been identified.

oh my God no they are not absolutely not. You can't train that. You have no idea how you're going to react in a situation where death is a real possibility. The cops who maintain their cool or just like anyone else who maintains their cool and some cops absolutely don't do that you are met a hot-headed cop? I've certainly met a few.

Again, I'm in favor of almost anything that will stop looters, but that particular idea just looks a little too dangerous (to me).

I understand your point of view but I think looting should be dangerous it might give people pause before they charge into that store and take that which they did not earn.

if you're a young girl dating a guy who wants to steal something he didn't earn dump that dude he is not a good person and he will treat you like crap.

 

[CLAX1911]

Clearly define SUSPECTED. A SUPPOSED plastic bottle, empty, was what Barr used, to justify bashing PEACEFUL protesters. Calling them VIOLENT.

I also believe that an empty plastic bottle was what justified the punk merc right winger in shooting three humans.

Then you don't know anything about that event.
One of the people he shot had a gun. The altercations started because rittenhouse stopped them from committing arson. If it was me making the loss written house would have been legally allowed to fire on them for trying to commit arson. That's a justified use of lethal Force.

People die in fires. He was nice enough not to just gun them down for that.

He only shot after they decided to give Chase to him for thwarting their arson attempt.

You are on the side of arsonists. In this case right is the opposite of wrong not left.

 

[CLAX1911]

Idiotic pet names really have to be one of the biggest indictors of posts that are really just terrible across the board. For example, opening things up is allowing people to make decisions for themselves. It doesn't support going to the beaches or any other such thing. Further, if riots don't spread Rona than neither do beaches.

It isn't a pet name it's an attempt to slur. They will disguise it is a form of mockery but it's not really. They're not mocking you. They are trying to dehumanize you. We've heard these people "joke" about committing genocide on Trump supporters or white people or so forth. We've heard them also "joke" about imprisoning or subjugating.

I don't think the joke is meant to be funny I think it's catharsis.

For all their grandstanding and moralizing about coronavirus it has been used as a political tool.

It was a way to try and stop Trump from communicating to his constituents. Every time he had a rally it was a super spreader event and you know these people were hoping and praying there would be spikes and more people dying. Remember when the mainstream media was all a buzz about hydroxychloroquine? And this woman poisoned her husband and tried to blame Trump and then the news media trying to say that Trump murdered This woman's husband?

But BLM protests in riots are immune or everyone is practicing perfect social distancing and wearing a mask.

They know they are using it as a political tool. They aren't trying to convince you they know you're too smart for it. They're trying to keep the less informed people less informed.

 

[Emily L]

oddly I see this sort of statement all the time that police have some sort of secret special training that they absolutely don't have.

I went to Police academy I graduated in 2014, I served as a reserve deputy for a little under a year. There was never any special training to recognize certain situations. It was never available.

so I'm not going to say that it absolutely doesn't exist because I don't know.

But if it does can you name it?
police don't have training to recognize that sort of thing. They just aren't the owner so they don't have skin in the game.


oh my God no they are not absolutely not. You can't train that. You have no idea how you're going to react in a situation where death is a real possibility. The cops who maintain their cool or just like anyone else who maintains their cool and some cops absolutely don't do that you are met a hot-headed cop? I've certainly met a few.
I understand your point of view but I think looting should be dangerous it might give people pause before they charge into that store and take that which they did not earn.

if you're a young girl dating a guy who wants to steal something he didn't earn dump that dude he is not a good person and he will treat you like crap.

Clax, if you've had police training, then you certainly know more about it than I do. But I've seen things on TV that show cops-in-training walking though something that looks like a fake city block with phony buildings and houses. As they walk, metal pictures pop up in windows, behind bushes, around house corners, behind parked cars, etc., depicting people who might be armed. The cop is scored on how he reacts to each pop-up. Some of the pictures show a person holding a gun at his side. Others show a person aiming a gun right at the cop. Others show the person holding a gun to the head of a hostage. Still others show innocent, unarmed civilians, such as a mother holding a baby, or a child alone. Some even show a dog.

The cop is scored on how fast he reacts, whether he draws his gun and whether he fires the gun. It's all based on his ability to identify a threat, a potential threat, or no threat, at all.

Again, Clax, you know more about this. But I just wanted you to know where I got the idea that cops are trained in being able to identify targets and react to them, whereas civilians don't have that kind of training.



The cop

 

[CLAX1911]

Clax, if you've had police training, then you certainly know more about it than I do. But I've seen things on TV that show cops-in-training walking though something that looks like a fake city block with phony buildings and houses. As they walk, metal pictures pop up in windows, behind bushes, around house corners, behind parked cars, etc., depicting people who might be armed. The cop is scored on how he reacts to each pop-up. Some of the pictures show a person holding a gun at his side. Others show a person aiming a gun right at the cop. Others show the person holding a gun to the head of a hostage. Still others show innocent, unarmed civilians, such as a mother holding a baby, or a child alone. Some even show a dog.

That's television. I haven't seen anything like that. When I took my shooting course it was the exact same test I took for my CHL. You just shot at a sillouette target.

I'm not saying those shooting galleries don't exist but it sounds extremely expensive for something like that. I wouldn't think it was very realistic either so the practical uses don't seem valuable.

The cop is scored on how fast he reacts, whether he draws his gun and whether he fires the gun. It's all based on his ability to identify a threat, a potential threat, or no threat, at all.

Again, Clax, you know more about this. But I just wanted you to know where I got the idea that cops are trained in being able to identify targets and react to them, whereas civilians don't have that kind of training.

you probably got the idea from TV the real shooting practical at least the one I took the one for basic peace officer cert in Texas is extremely boring to watch and those arcades are fun to watch.

I actually received more training with regard to driving than I did handling firearms. Vast majority of training went into procedures and dealing with traffic stops and dealing with various other calls. Anything involving a gun seemed like an afterthought.

The cop

I'm not a deputy anymore I was only ever really a reserved deputy.

 

[Emily L]

That's television. I haven't seen anything like that. When I took my shooting course it was the exact same test I took for my CHL. You just shot at a sillouette target.

I'm not saying those shooting galleries don't exist but it sounds extremely expensive for something like that. I wouldn't think it was very realistic either so the practical uses don't seem valuable.
you probably got the idea from TV the real shooting practical at least the one I took the one for basic peace officer cert in Texas is extremely boring to watch and those arcades are fun to watch.

I actually received more training with regard to driving than I did handling firearms. Vast majority of training went into procedures and dealing with traffic stops and dealing with various other calls. Anything involving a gun seemed like an afterthought.


I'm not a deputy anymore I was only ever really a reserved deputy.

Well, that shooting gallery thing might, indeed, be a Hollywood creation. I think I've seen a clip from an Eddie Murphy movie where he was a cop-in-training and he shot at everything that popped up, even the innocent civilians. He then turned to the instructor and said something funny, but I can't remember what it was. Yes, Clax, I just might have bought into something that doesn't really exist, and if that's the case, then thanks for setting me straight.

 

[CLAX1911]

Well, that shooting gallery thing might, indeed, be a Hollywood creation. I think I've seen a clip from an Eddie Murphy movie where he was a cop-in-training and he shot at everything that popped up, even the innocent civilians. He then turned to the instructor and said something funny, but I can't remember what it was. Yes, Clax, I just might have bought into something that doesn't really exist, and if that's the case, then thanks for setting me straight.

She that's sort of thing just doesn't sound useful in police training. You're never going to be walking around having to randomly shoot people. That seems like something that would be more useful for military training.

The more I think about this sort of thing and I've seen it in pop culture too so I know what you're talking about, the more bizarre it sounds to me for police training. police don't just shoot people who pop around walls that's something a soldier would do.

Maybe they are used to train military personnel.

I'm just putting myself in that situation I'm walking between two rows of buildings and if someone on the second floor pops out with the pistol and starts firing at me I'm going to run for cover or concealment not reflexively shoot. I think it caught that was trained to reflexively shoot would not last long on the police force.

I'm glad you brought that up I've been thinking about it a lot since you mentioned it.

Television tends to make police work home probably many other things more glamorous than they are. Nobody wants to watch a cop show or an action movie where police spend 4 hours filling out paperwork that's mostly what you're doing.

 

[Rucker61]

i

Well, that shooting gallery thing might, indeed, be a Hollywood creation. I think I've seen a clip from an Eddie Murphy movie where he was a cop-in-training and he shot at everything that popped up, even the innocent civilians. He then turned to the instructor and said something funny, but I can't remember what it was. Yes, Clax, I just might have bought into something that doesn't really exist, and if that's the case, then thanks for setting me straight.

Another data point- our local PD has a shoot house, and it's used by various local city and county LEOs to practice the encounters you've referred to.

 

[CLAX1911]

Another data point- our local PD has a shoot house, and it's used by various local city and county LEOs to practice the encounters you've referred to.

Yeah I just don't see any point where such training where you run around and shoot pop out targets is being useful. Grappling with a person or being able to talk them down would be far more useful.

 

[Emily L]

Another data point- our local PD has a shoot house, and it's used by various local city and county LEOs to practice the encounters you've referred to.

Thanks, Rucker! I guess that kind of thing does exist at some places, after all.

 

[Rich2018]

I think I'd like to see a court actually identify a looter, before declaring open season on them.

 

[bluesmoke]

I think I'd like to see a court actually identify a looter, before declaring open season on them.

They'll let a citizen do so and then sort things out. That's the law. What is a looter, a person burglarizing within 500 feet of a “violent or disorderly assembly” not necessarily declared so by authority or "criminal mischief" causing “interruption or impairment” of a business is as determined by the "stand your ground" shooter. Shoot first and ask questions later.

 

[Rich2018]

They'll let a citizen do so and then sort things out. ..

I don't like giving any citizen with a gun carte blanche to act as policeman/judge/jury and executioner

Clearly you think vigilante justice is a good thing....