[W:#23,579]Ukraine War Thread

[W_Heisenberg]

The area in yellow is Russian claimed territory.

Yes, they claim they control it. And ISW, which you treat as a reputable source, hasn’t yet assessed that they control it.

Russia has been pretty accurate on their claims.

Oh, you mean like when they claimed they wouldn’t invade Ukraine?

Ukraine is not making any claims opposing the acquired Russian area.

Oh, they will oppose Russia’s attacks for sure. Just you wait. The Russians are sitting ducks.

Russia controls that main road. On that point, you are wrong.

I might be wrong, and you might be wrong, but I know with great certainty that the most you can say is that Russia only claims to control a tiny section of the road.

 

[Tangmo]

Russia controls that main road. On that point, you are wrong.

You're ready to go to the wall over this stuff aren't you.

It's almost fanatical.

It's one road. One section of one road actually. One city. One PutinPatch region of all of Ukraine.

Jeeze.

Talk about desperate for anything.

 

[justoneman]

I might be wrong, and you might be wrong, but I know with great certainty that the most you can say is that Russia only claims to control a tiny section of the road.

You said earlier today that the Russians do not control the road and that every time they move in, they get shelled and leave the area. That was made up stuff by you. I think your heart is in the right place. You want Ukraine to be winning. That is great you want it, but I want to deal in what is really happening.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

You said earlier today that the Russians do not control the road

We know only that the Russians are attacking the road.

We know only that the Russians claim to control a tiny section of the road.

You accept the claims of the Russians at face value. I don’t know why. They have proven themselves to be the greatest liars in the world.

and that every time they move in, they get shelled and leave the area. That was made up stuff by you.

I said that based on commentary from military analysts, former military personnel, and Ukrainians in Ukraine.

Also, I’ve been watching the maps on various sites nearly every day since the war began, and I know the Russians already captured a piece of that highway on or around May 25th but they were driven back by the Ukrainians. It’s only now, one month later, that the Russians have been able to creep back towards that highway. The ISW — which we now know you use as a source of information — also mentioned the fact that Russia put aside trying capture the highway and tried to go directly north instead for awhile. If you accept the ISW’s analysis when you think it supports your argument, then you must also accept the ISW’s analysis when it supports my argument, or anyone else’s.

So, no, it’s not “made up stuff” by me. It’s a matter of geography.

I think your heart is in the right place. You want Ukraine to be winning. That is great you want it, but I want to deal in what is really happening.

Well, I think a good start would be to not believe a single thing Russia says about anything until it has been independently verified.

 

[justoneman]

So, no, it’s not “made up stuff” by me. It’s a matter of geography.

It's made up stuff by you. The Russians reached south of the road but did not take it till the day before yesterday.

 

[Tangmo]

Russians have lost Ukraine.

Forever.

Russians are condemned by the world of nations.

For as far out as the lives of their grandchildren.

Because in Russia the sins of the father is the way of life. Handed down from generation to generation.

Russians are bombing civilian women and children in the cities of Ukraine because they didn't want them in Putin's Novo Ryussia. Indeed, Ukrainians of the present would never accept Putin's Ukraine as a part of Russia. Putin wants all present civilian men, women, children in Ukraine annihilated. Putin knows His Novo Ryussia would never be able to deal with them. So start again in Ukraine with an imported population that is subservient already and agreeable. Annihilate the present generations.

 

[justoneman]

Russians have lost Ukraine.

Forever.

Russians are condemned by the world of nations.

For as far out as the lives of their grandchildren.

Because in Russia the sins of the father is the way of life. Handed down from generation to generation.

The Russians have a funny way of losing Ukraine, by taking more and more of it everyday.

 

[Tangmo]

The Russians have a funny way of losing Ukraine, by taking more and more of it everyday.

The PutinPatch of Donbas and that excludes Kyiv the capital that Putin wanted to seize and decapitate the government leadership, install a puppet government and declare Ukraine restored to Putin's ghost of the USSR world.

Methinks btw you need this more than Putin does.

 

[Juks]

Vladimir Putin personally gave permission to his invasion forces to engage in looting in Ukraine..... I make an educated guess and say same probably goes for torture, killing civilians and rape.

Looting personally greenlighted by Putin - intercept

Vladimir Putin personally gave permission to his invasion forces to engage in looting in Ukraine. â Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

 

[Juks]

Somehow, I think he is correct....

Putin's Failed Ukraine War Means 'Demise of Russia's Arms Industry': Dobson

Countries that buy weapons from Russia are "questioning their reliability and future delivery," a former British diplomat said.

www.newsweek.com

Can't help wondering what will be left for Russia to export a couple of years from now, EU working on overtime to get rid of the dependence on Gas and the car industry spitting out electric cars.

Well, maybe the countries in Asia that hasn't imposed the sanctions will continue to and increase their import, but at the end those countries has lined there industry to the European for export benefits in the past and it has been a successful strategy.

 

[Juks]

Germany will fire up coal plants again in an effort to save natural gas. (Published 2022)

It was one of a series of measures announced by Germany’s economy minister, as Europe takes steps to deal with reduced energy supplies from Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Now we only need Italy to restart it's gasproduction that it closed in 2019 in benefit of importing from Russia.

 

[justoneman]

Vladimir Putin personally gave permission to his invasion forces to engage in looting in Ukraine..... I make an educated guess and say same probably goes for torture, killing civilians and rape.

Looting personally greenlighted by Putin - intercept

Vladimir Putin personally gave permission to his invasion forces to engage in looting in Ukraine. â Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

How stupid. A Russian soldier told his wife. Come on. This is garbage reporting.

 

[justoneman]

Germany will fire up coal plants again in an effort to save natural gas. (Published 2022)

It was one of a series of measures announced by Germany’s economy minister, as Europe takes steps to deal with reduced energy supplies from Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Now we only need Italy to restart it's gasproduction that it closed in 2019 in benefit of importing from Russia.

China is laughing at the west. It makes solar panels that produce very expensive electricity and sell them to us, meanwhile they are building many new coal fired power plants.

 

[Tangmo]

How stupid. A Russian soldier told his wife. Come on. This is garbage reporting.

Russian Soldiers raping Ukrainian women produces more Russian Bastards in Ukraine.

Putin needs his fellow Russian Bastards for his Novo Ryussia Fantasyland. All the while killing Ukrainian civilians and driving out of the country those Ukrainian civilians Putin can't find to kill.

Putin found out for sure the current Ukraine population is against him and would never accept him as absentee leader of a puppet government, as was Putin's disastrously failed Grand Plan for Ukraine. So repopulate the place with Russian Bastards like himself.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Tokayev showing up at the forum and making the statement he did on the stage is telling us that he doesn't agree and that he has built up ties to China to ensure that he doesn’t have to be a puppet in Putin’s cabinet and that no Russian invasion will be conducted on his territory.

???

Russian troops were in Kazakhstan as recently as January at the invitation of the government to put down riots.

 

[multivita-man]

This is not good. And it could have profound political implications going forward.

Far-right sends shockwaves in France after electoral breakthrough

France's far-right scored a historic success in legislative elections on Sunday increasing its number of lawmakers almost tenfold and cementing the party's rise from fringe status to the mainstream opposition.

www.reuters.com

PARIS, June 19 (Reuters) - France's far-right scored a historic success in legislative elections on Sunday increasing its number of lawmakers almost tenfold and cementing the party's rise from fringe status to the mainstream opposition.

What's just as disturbing as the outcome is the growing political apathy in France. Only half the electorate (maybe not even) showed up to vote. There's clearly mounting cynicism and rising inflation, due in no small part to the war in Ukraine, can be a destabilizing factor.

This is why I felt like I've felt we had to risk a hot war with Russia and actually crush Russian troops in Ukraine to the extent that we could. The conventional wisdom has been that we can wear down Russia in a war of attrition, but they can wear out our political will as well. Russia doesn't have to worry about elections, but policymakers in Western countries do, and elections are often about the 'What's in it for me?' factor. We really needed a 1st round knockout, and we haven't gotten it. I see support for the war effort waning over time - it'll probably extremely low as we head into the colder winter months and into the November elections here in the US.

If we're not willing to fight Russia, then we are going to have to compromise with them, sad to say. I get it - that will only encourage Putin and he may take a swing at Baltic NATO states. I think that really should be the point of focus going forward: coordinating with NATO allies to ensure that we build up our anti-Russian defenses so that it is absolutely frighteningly clear to Russia that if they so much as touch a NATO member, a hot war is on and whatever happens, happens -- make that clear to other world powers to, such that they have some skin in the game.

 

[justoneman]

This is why I felt like I've felt we had to risk a hot war with Russia and actually crush Russian troops in Ukraine to the extent that we could. The conventional wisdom has been that we can wear down Russia in a war of attrition, but they can wear out our political will as well. Russia doesn't have to worry about elections, but policymakers in Western countries do, and elections are often about the 'What's in it for me?' factor. We really needed a 1st round knockout, and we haven't gotten it. I see support for the war effort waning over time - it'll probably extremely low as we head into the colder winter months and into the November elections here in the US.

If we're not willing to fight Russia, then we are going to have to compromise with them, sad to say. I get it - that will only encourage Putin and he may take a swing at Baltic NATO states. I think that really should be the point of focus going forward: coordinating with NATO allies to ensure that we build up our anti-Russian defenses so that it is absolutely frighteningly clear to Russia that if they so much as touch a NATO member, a hot war is on and whatever happens, happens -- make that clear to other world powers to, such that they have some skin in the game.

Your comments here are exactly why I post about the reality of the war in Ukraine. Look at you. Advocating for the US to go to war with Russia!

 

[Fledermaus]

How stupid. A Russian soldier told his wife. Come on. This is garbage reporting.

Yes he did.

 

[justoneman]

Yes he did.

So what? A Russian soldier said. What garbage.

 

[multivita-man]

Your comments here are exactly why I post about the reality of the war in Ukraine. Look at you. Advocating for the US to go to war with Russia!

In a sense, we are already at war with Russia; it's a matter of whose terms the war is being waged.

 

[justoneman]

In a sense, we are already at war with Russia; it's a matter of whose terms the war is being waged.

Yes fools are trying to draw us into war.

 

[Tangmo]

Germany will fire up coal plants again in an effort to save natural gas. (Published 2022)

It was one of a series of measures announced by Germany’s economy minister, as Europe takes steps to deal with reduced energy supplies from Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Now we only need Italy to restart it's gasproduction that it closed in 2019 in benefit of importing from Russia.

Italy and Spain are agreeing on a new gas pipeline as their alternative to Putin's politically explosive gas dependency.

Spain and France are moving swiftly to finish a gas pipeline they terminated in 2019, through the Pyrenees for northern Europe, again to reduce significantly or eliminate Putin's politically explosive gas dependency.

Spain that has six LNG receiving terminals to include a giant one in Barcelona is being designated as the new gas hub for Europe. The US Department of Energy said in March it will increase its LNG flows to Spain now and moreso in the next few years. Germany will build its first two LNG receiving facilities for Eur 1bn and lease two more, to include receiving LNG from the US which Germany had been loathe to do, willfully favoring Russian politically explosive energy commodities instead.

Big changes are occurring across Europe concerning the import of energy commodities.

 

[Tangmo]

China is laughing at the west. It makes solar panels that produce very expensive electricity and sell them to us, meanwhile they are building many new coal fired power plants.

The West knows the rise of a peaceful China is a myth, a fraud, a deception.

And that the only thing worse than a rising China is the current falling China.

 

[Fledermaus]

So what? A Russian soldier said. What garbage.

Russians loot.

Russians admit they loot.

Russians say they were green lighted to loot.

 

[multivita-man]

Yes fools are trying to draw us into war.

Russia has already shown us what the future looks like: it looks like a place in which if the West doesn't agree to let Russia push other countries around, it will weaponize crucial natural resources in an effort to apply economic and political pressure to Western countries. It'll destabilize our governments, undermine our autonomy, undermine our democracies (already have), and make us weaker and less prosperous. I am willing to compromise with Russia, including getting Ukraine to accept permanent loss of some of its territory, in order to lay out an off-ramp and avoid a much costlier war involving multiple states - with the proviso that we never allow Russia to move an inch further.

That's my take. We're suffering now because we deluded ourselves into believing that Russia was not a threat, repeatedly telling ourselves "Ah, they might have attacked South Ossetia but they wouldn't invade Ukraine," or "Ah, they used nerve agents on British soil but that was a one-off event." We made excuses for Russia because politicians in numerous countries were vested in the idea that the Cold War is a thing of the past. Turns out, it's not the case.

But whatever, we're here now, and we're here because we were unprepared. We didn't have a plan. I think we can work with Putin and Ukraine to reach an uncomfortable peace, as all sides have lost something but we have to have a concrete plan for defending Western interests - including what's left of Ukraine - going forward. If not, we're asking to be bullied, and we may end up eventually fighting a much nastier and more costly hot war.