• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

[W:#23,579]Ukraine War Thread

iguanaman said:
He has no clue what the U.S./ Ukraine plan to win this war is.
Click to expand...

There is zero evidence that there is a US plan for Ukraine to win the war, so far all the US has shown is that it is entirely reactive. When Ukraine loses too much ground and lives, the US scrambles to throw together a package of help. When the front is stabilized, the heavy weapons shipments stop.

It's clear that the Ukrainians have to be losing before their heavy weapons requests are fulfilled.

At this moment, Ukraine has an opportune time to go on the strategic offense. But given the inherent limitations from the wests previous less than optimal and timely responses, it will be a far greater risk.

It's a shame, but without the ability to hit deeper into Russian supply lines with ACACMS, without the permission to strike Russian depots and rail yards in Russia using US made weapons, without the western systems to down ballistic and cruise missiles (e.g. Patriot), without fully trained soldiers well, the chances for success are seriously reduced.

iguanaman said:
Neither do I but I know there is one because we would never commit this much money and effort if we did not think Ukraine could win.
Click to expand...

Yes, the could and have. Read a history of the Vietnam war, or the war in Korea, or the later stages of the Afghanistan occupation - sometimes countries do assist others believing that they aren't going to win but are afraid of losing.

iguanaman said:
This war is like the moonshot and America is in this to win like putting a man on the moon. The first step is to establish control of the air and then our planes will make the difference. Once we have eliminated the AA there will be no stopping Ukraine. It will be a rout. Like in WWII Europe is depending on us and we will not fail. Make no mistake the brave and valiant Ukrainians are the ones making this happen but we are supplying the equipment and tactics to win.
Click to expand...

Delusional nonsense. I would have been overjoyed if the Biden administration had, in their state of the union, treated this as the most important national issue since 9-11. I'd be doing cartwheels if Biden had called for a mobilization of US industry and resources to become an "arsenal of democracy" and seen this as essential to our long-term security to WIN...not to just help, to turn the war into a world war one stalemate, but to win.

That cannot and will not happen without strategic vision, leadership, and courage. Alas, we don't have FDR, a Thatcher, or Churchill. If we did, today things would look much brighter for Ukraine.

It's a truth you cannot bring yourself to accept.
 
It's so ****ing weird that russia thinks that Crimea is russian land, even though an overwhelming number of russians think so.

So many of the troll-based arguments rely on this assumption, regurgitated endlessly by russian propaganda.

It's nice that russians feel deeply associated with Crimea. Ukrainians feel similarly.

It's unfortunate for russia that Crimea is a part of Ukraine, a fact impossible to dispute by russia due to its Partition Treaty and Ukrainian-Russian Friendship Treaty.

In order to be party to these treaties, russia necessarily and implicitly needed to agree that Crimea was Ukrainian land.

In other words, if Crimea belonged to russia, why would it need to negotiate a treaty about it with any other country?

Surely, russian propaganda can answer that question.
 
maxparrish said:
I do not expect Biden to be before a "political firing squad" for his manifest failure (along with Macon and Scholz) to rise to the occasion. I fully accept that as he and his advisors repeat the errors of Korea and Vietnam, and fail to appreciate the strategic lessons of the Gulf and Iraq wars, that no one is going to hold them accountable - not when an even worse foreign policy and military leader like Trump (and in France Le Pen) is the alternative.

None the less, Ukraine/NATO can easily lose the war, given its current course. The US/Nato have no actual strategy other than to prolong the war through gradualism and "just enough" assistance to Ukraine, but not to win it...but to prevent their defeat. Whether this is intentional or not is irrelevant. It's a reality and increases the chances of an outcome none of us would like (save for @Juin and @anatta and a few others).
Click to expand...
Since you named myself, just how were we supposed to "win" Iraq? we put in every conceivable effort from toppling the government to de-Bathhification of the officers while building them an armed forces, to building them a governng area and providing security for this latest folly of "speading democracy" at the barrel of a gun .

Is there some strategic lesson I missed that would have won the outcome?
Seems to me Saddam like Qadaffi is what works for those countries. At minimum it is their government choice, not ours.
Maybe we didn't like it, but our attempts only hurt us and them
 
JANFU said:
Xi could also find that out
Click to expand...
Xi is not using only his claws and teeth, he uses soft power (One Belt One Road) - much more durable and profitable for China.
But he's not above taking Taiwan by force when push comes to shove either.

He's a wily cat
 
maxparrish said:
There is zero evidence that there is a US plan for Ukraine to win the war, so far all the US has shown is that it is entirely reactive. When Ukraine loses too much ground and lives, the US scrambles to throw together a package of help. When the front is stabilized, the heavy weapons shipments stop.

It's clear that the Ukrainians have to be losing before their heavy weapons requests are fulfilled.

At this moment, Ukraine has an opportune time to go on the strategic offense. But given the inherent limitations from the wests previous less than optimal and timely responses, it will be a far greater risk.

It's a shame, but without the ability to hit deeper into Russian supply lines with ACACMS, without the permission to strike Russian depots and rail yards in Russia using US made weapons, without the western systems to down ballistic and cruise missiles (e.g. Patriot), without fully trained soldiers well, the chances for success are seriously reduced.



Yes, the could and have. Read a history of the Vietnam war, or the war in Korea, or the later stages of the Afghanistan occupation - sometimes countries do assist others believing that they aren't going to win but are afraid of losing.



Delusional nonsense. I would have been overjoyed if the Biden administration had, in their state of the union, treated this as the most important national issue since 9-11. I'd be doing cartwheels if Biden had called for a mobilization of US industry and resources to become an "arsenal of democracy" and seen this as essential to our long-term security to WIN...not to just help, to turn the war into a world war one stalemate, but to win.

That cannot and will not happen without strategic vision, leadership, and courage. Alas, we don't have FDR, a Thatcher, or Churchill. If we did, today things would look much brighter for Ukraine.

It's a truth you cannot bring yourself to accept.
Click to expand...
strategic vision, leadership, and courage.
You just described why the U.S and the Ukrainians are going to win this war with our technology coming in 4th...We are the greatest nation the world has ever seen and we have not seen a cause this just and with a nation this worthy since WWII. You bet we are going to win.

What do you think? City after city was being reduced to rubble so yes the Ukrainians felt like that was losing. They never missed a beat though and you are wrong. There is a plan and you just refuse to admit it. I told you part of it already. As far as going on the offensive now goes that is a fools game and you know it. We are not going repeat WW1 and fight bloody trench wars with a dug in enemy. That is what Putin wants and he never gets what he wants. When Ukraine controls the skies with 2 squadrons of F-16's equipped with all our latest weapons is when the Ukraine army will send the Russians running in terror. They will not be able to get out of Ukraine fast enough. Tick, tick, tick.
 
Last edited:
ChickenTendies said:
I believe the showman understands the necessity for a victory before the chill sets in, with a corresponding chill in Europe's attitude to the war. But I dont think they have enough equipment to even attempt a half-assed offensive at this point.
Click to expand...
NATO just now reinforced Latvia.

The message to Putin is that he cannot seize Latvia or all three of the Baltic states then declare His Glorious Victory and peace in Europe, to include Ukraine of course. And that by Putin doing so NATO would sit on its hands (which is what Putin thought stupidly about Ukraine).

Russians are hard core that the populations, lands and resources of the Baltic states belong to Russia. So it looks very much like NATO is attuned to the possibility of it occurring. Militarily it would also sever the Suwalki Corridor between Poland and a newly Russian Baltics and meld 'em with Kaliningrad at the Poland border.

Plus Russia would improve its position at the eastern Baltic Sea, ie, Scandinavia. What with Sweden and Finland soon to enter NATO Putin having the Baltics would be something the arse could bray about.
 
anatta said:
Xi is not using only his claws and teeth, he uses soft power (One Belt One Road) - much more durable and profitable for China.
But he's not above taking Taiwan by force when push comes to shove either.

He's a wily cat
Click to expand...
Xi Jin Pingpong is a poozy cat. He's a Chinese blowhard leader the way so many Chinese leaders have been blowhards over the ages. The only thing soft about Xi is his head.

Belt & Road To Nowhere.

B&R was a classically grandiose Chinese autocracy rule the world scheme whose endpoint was to be Europe and that Europe won't have anything to do with -- Europe developed its own rail connection from China to Poland&Germany unifying and upgrading mostly existing tracks.

Erdogan and Iran are pissed at Beijing because of genocide in Muslim XinJiang; Erdogan went there to the Turkic speaking population by Beijing's request ten or so years ago and since then has regretted falling into that Chinese trap. India has always said no to it. Putin has sent additional troops to the Stan countries because Xi intends to plow his Chinaman filled road project right through Moscow so that's DoA too. Indeed, Beijing and Moscow are just not as close or integrated as the public face they put on together. It is in fact Russian Maskirovka and Chinese outright deception.

Pakistan of all countries stopped construction to throw out the mass of Chinese hordes who were taking over -- now Pakistanis are in charge and they have tolls and taxes to collect, not to mention tens of millions in construction corruption between 'em. Australia is taking back the strategic port of Darwin the Chinese bought several years ago and was to have been a big factor to Xi's also failed seagoing B&R; Darwin has Aussie troops and US Marines stationed there now. Thailand said no to a B&R canal ripped through its Isthmus of Kra in the South and said no again to a B&R railroad across its North from Myanmar to southern China, each of which were to be built and populated by Chinese. There's more.

Xi's classically grandiose Chinese Belt & Road of the 21st "China Century" is a the same as the Great Wall project, ie, a Big Nothing that accomplished nothing. That's the long history of China's compulsion to grab and control -- a Big Nothing that accomplished nothing. So Xi has to build a big War Machine to get what the CCP Dynasty wants before it too collapses just as each and every Chinese dynasty before it has collapsed of its own dead weight -- every dynasty; all of 'em. Chinese don't learn as every century is Groundhog Century.
 
Tangmo said:
Xi Jin Pingpong is a poozy cat. He's a Chinese blowhard leader the way so many Chinese leaders have been blowhards over the ages. The only thing soft about Xi is his head.

Belt & Road To Nowhere.

B&R was a classically grandiose Chinese autocracy rule the world scheme whose endpoint was to be Europe and that Europe won't have anything to do with -- Europe developed its own rail connection from China to Poland&Germany unifying and upgrading mostly existing tracks.

Erdogan and Iran are pissed at Beijing because of genocide in Muslim XinJiang; Erdogan went there to the Turkic speaking population by Beijing's request ten or so years ago and since then has regretted falling into that Chinese trap. India has always said no to it. Putin has sent additional troops to the Stan countries because Xi intends to plow his Chinaman filled road project right through Moscow so that's DoA too. Indeed, Beijing and Moscow are just not as close or integrated as the public face they put on together. It is in fact Russian Maskirovka and Chinese outright deception.

Pakistan of all countries stopped construction to throw out the mass of Chinese hordes who were taking over -- now Pakistanis are in charge and they have tolls and taxes to collect, not to mention tens of millions in construction corruption between 'em. Australia is taking back the strategic port of Darwin the Chinese bought several years ago and was to have been a big factor to Xi's also failed seagoing B&R; Darwin has Aussie troops and US Marines stationed there now. Thailand said no to a B&R canal ripped through its Isthmus of Kra in the South and said no again to a B&R railroad across its North from Myanmar to southern China, each of which were to be built and populated by Chinese. There's more.

Xi's classically grandiose Chinese Belt & Road of the 21st "China Century" is a the same as the Great Wall project, ie, a Big Nothing that accomplished nothing. That's the long history of China's compulsion to grab and control -- a Big Nothing that accomplished nothing. So Xi has to build a big War Machine to get what the CCP Dynasty wants before it too collapses just as each and every Chinese dynasty before it has collapsed of its own dead weight -- every dynasty; all of 'em. Chinese don't learn as every century is Groundhog Century.
Click to expand...
It's late. i want to read thru this later
 
The fascist ideologue Alexandr Dugin has been called "Putin's brain". On Saturday evening, his daughter Daria Dugina, 29, died in a car explosion in Moscow. The father is said to have changed cars at the last moment.

www.the-sun.com

Putin's 'spiritual guide' narrowly escapes car bomb as his daughter is blown up

VLADIMIR Putin’s “spiritual guide” Alexander Dugin narrowly escaped a car bomb attack that blew up his propagandist daughter, reports say. The Neo-Nazi mystic – said to be a…
www.the-sun.com www.the-sun.com

There is no confirmed information on the cause of the explosion, but Ria Novosti quotes Donbass separatist leader Denis Pushilin is blaming Ukraine. “Vile scoundrels! The Ukrainian regime terrorists tried to eliminate Alexandr Dugin but blew up his daughter in the car. Bless Daria's memory, she is a real Russian girl,"
on Telegram.

Tragic that such a young woman died, but a part of me wants to put laughing emojis right here... What are the odds that Ukrainian special forces been smuggled into Russia and able to place a car bomb on a high state representative compared to the odds that Alexandr Dugin has had a fallout of some kind with Putin? (He would be wise to leave Russia promptly... but who would like to take him? (I guess he can negotiate with some kind of information...)
 
And just in case you don't know:
Daria Dugina was the editor of the website United World International and an outspoken supporter of the war. She was a frequent and high-profile source of disinformation related to Ukraine and the Russian invasion of Ukraine on various online platforms.

Her father:
In his book from 1997 "The Foundations of Geopolitics: Russia's Geopolitical Future" Alexandr Dugin wrote, according to CBS, that Russia needs to use disinformation, destabilization and annexation to re-establish its status as a superpower . He singled out Ukraine in particular as a country that must be invaded. "Ukraine as a nation has no geopolitical significance, no particular cultural import or general relevance, no geographic or ethnic exclusivity," he wrote. Yale University historian Timothy Snyder has described him as Putin's chief ideologue. Dugin has taught at Russia's leading universities, held courses for the military and often appeared on the largest television channels. According to the Washington Post and CBS, Putin's words that "Ukraine has no right to exist" come directly from Dugin's mind. Dugin was an outspoken Nazi for 20 years. Over time, however, he has toned down those references.
 
The drone that crashed into the Russian navy's headquarters in Crimea is said to have been home-built. According to several assessors, the craft itself can be bought by anyone on the internet. Danish Jyllands-Posten states that drones of the same type can be bought on the Chinese site Alibaba for under SEK 100,000.
 
Juks said:
The drone that crashed into the Russian navy's headquarters in Crimea is said to have been home-built. According to several assessors, the craft itself can be bought by anyone on the internet. Danish Jyllands-Posten states that drones of the same type can be bought on the Chinese site Alibaba for under SEK 100,000.
Click to expand...
That would be $9400 U.S. Dollars if my math is correct? SEK 100,000 X 0.094 = $9400.00
 
EnigmaO01 said:
That would be $9400 U.S. Dollars if my math is correct? SEK 100,000 X 0.094 = $9400.00
Click to expand...
Sorry, I usually make the transfer before posting, forgot.... You are correct, that is about 9400 USD
 
Tangmo said:
NATO just now reinforced Latvia.

The message to Putin is that he cannot seize Latvia or all three of the Baltic states then declare His Glorious Victory and peace in Europe, to include Ukraine of course. And that by Putin doing so NATO would sit on its hands (which is what Putin thought stupidly about Ukraine).

Russians are hard core that the populations, lands and resources of the Baltic states belong to Russia. So it looks very much like NATO is attuned to the possibility of it occurring. Militarily it would also sever the Suwalki Corridor between Poland and a newly Russian Baltics and meld 'em with Kaliningrad at the Poland border.

Plus Russia would improve its position at the eastern Baltic Sea, ie, Scandinavia. What with Sweden and Finland soon to enter NATO Putin having the Baltics would be something the arse could bray about.
Click to expand...
Have Finland and Estonia closed the Baltic Sea to Russian warships? I thought I read that they had reached a new agreement, but this corridor at Kaliningrad still gives Russia access? I can go look this up, but the experts here make me lazy!
 
NewfieMom said:
Have Finland and Estonia closed the Baltic Sea to Russian warships? I thought I read that they had reached a new agreement, but this corridor at Kaliningrad still gives Russia access? I can go look this up, but the experts here make me lazy!
Click to expand...
I am looking at a map. Only The Gulf of Finland would be under the control of Estonia and Finland. The Baltic is huge. I should have looked at a map first. Sorry.
 
iu

Left - Darya Dugina pictured with her father Alexander Dugin hours before the attack.

www.themoscowtimes.com

Car Bomb Kills Daughter of Kremlin Hardline Ideologue - The Moscow Times

The daughter of Alexader Dugin, a hardline Russian ideologue close to President Vladimir Putin, has been killed in a car bombing on Moscow's outskirts, authorities said on Sunday.
www.themoscowtimes.com www.themoscowtimes.com

Alexander Dugin was the intended target. No matter who set the explosive, the Kremlin will blame Ukraine.


www.rferl.org

Russian Shelling Hits Residential Area In Ukrainian Town Near Nuclear Plant

Russian shelling hit a residential area in the southern region of Mykolayiv, wounding 12 civilians, including four children, on August 20, Ukrainian officials said.
www.rferl.org www.rferl.org


www.rferl.org

Four More Ships Carrying Food Leave Ukraine, Says Turkey

Four more ships carrying foodstuffs have left Ukrainian Black Sea ports, Turkey's Defense Ministry said on August 21, bringing the total number of vessels to leave Ukraine's Black Sea ports under a UN-brokered grain export deal to 31.
www.rferl.org www.rferl.org


www.state.gov

Second Anniversary of the Poisoning of Aleksey Navalny - United States Department of State

Two years ago today, officers of the Russian government attempted to assassinate opposition leader Aleksey Navalny with a nerve agent on Russian soil. When Mr. Navalny survived the brazen attack and bravely returned to Russia after recovering abroad, the Kremlin shamelessly imprisoned him on...
www.state.gov www.state.gov
 
Juks said:
Sorry, I usually make the transfer before posting, forgot.... You are correct, that is about 9400 USD
Click to expand...
No reason to be sorry. The world doesn't revolve around the U.S. contrary to what some think. I was perfectly fine with making the conversion myself.
 
NewfieMom said:
I am looking at a map. Only The Gulf of Finland would be under the control of Estonia and Finland. The Baltic is huge. I should have looked at a map first. Sorry.
Click to expand...
My dad did training in the Baltic years ago with the Danish equivalent to our Seals. They were NOT pushovers! They cut our Special Forces no slack and a 10 km swim per day was protocol along with other training. If you drowned because your timing was off swimming up a torpedo tube that was tough ****. I seem to remember him saying the jellyfish they made contact with while swimming were no fun.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom