[W: 20] If you do this your religion is useless...

[Logician Man]

The video - in turn - could very likely have been taken out of context......

......if the intended message of the OP seek to apply it to forums.


Surely, Lex Meyer isn't referring to forums or debates!

Actually, he specifically stated 'especially on the internet' in the video. Guess where 'debate forums' are most commonly found ? :lol:

 

[tosca1]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Actually, it's a lie you're telling yourself, IMO. If you're all about "contention," own it. I mean, how very interesting that so many on "both sides" have more interest in arguing in the open forum rather than enjoying hassle-free discussion in Philosophy or Theology.

Pertaining to forums - whether in Philosophy or Theology - any challenge to any claim can be called
"contentious," right? That's why there are things called "arguments" and "rebuttals."

Where else can we find arguments and rebuttals as the staple food, but in forums and debates?
And it's usually controversial issues that come up in forums.

 

[tosca1]

Actually, he specifically stated 'especially on the internet' in the video. Guess where 'debate forums' are most commonly found ? :lol:

Lol! :lol: Hahahahaha! :lamo Hahahaha

 

[tosca1]

Actually, he specifically stated 'especially on the internet' in the video. Guess where 'debate forums' are most commonly found ? :lol:

Could it be he's referring to other things than public forums? Could it be he's referring to blogs?

Or even youtube?

or, whatever website you can leave your comment?

Or, facebook?






The very concept of a forum like DP, seems lost to you and Elvira.


fo·rum
1.
a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
(from google)



Differing views are likely to be in forums. In this particular forum (DP) - we tend to engage in debates - opposing arguments are presented, which can be rebutted or challenged.
Claims can be hotly contested. Discussions can get heated!

 

[Daisy]

Actually, he specifically stated 'especially on the internet' in the video. Guess where 'debate forums' are most commonly found ? :lol:

Exactly...no matter where a Christian is, it is good to remember we are always representing our God...may I never cause Him embarrassment or shame...one can turn a person away from God quicker than anything with their attitude, actions, and words, regardless of where they are...

"A time to be silent and a time to speak;" Ecclesiastes 3:1:7

"Be agitated, but do not sin.
Have your say in your heart, upon your bed, and keep silent." Psalm 4:4

The key is in knowing when to speak and when to keep silent...

 

[Logician Man]

Exactly...no matter where a Christian is, it is good to remember we are always representing our God...may I never cause Him embarrassment or shame...one can turn a person away from God quicker than anything with their attitude, actions, and words, regardless of where they are...

"A time to be silent and a time to speak;" Ecclesiastes 3:1:7

"Be agitated, but do not sin.
Have your say in your heart, upon your bed, and keep silent." Psalm 4:4

The key is in knowing when to speak and when to keep silent...

I can assure you that your approach to leading others to Christ is much more effective,convincing, and biblically sound that 'some' of the mean spirited, hateful trinitarians here in this forum. That's for damn sure.

 

[Daisy]

I can assure you that your approach to leading others to Christ is much more effective,convincing, and biblically sound that 'some' of the mean spirited, hateful trinitarians here in this forum. That's for damn sure.

Thank you, LM...I certainly hope so...my reason for posting this video was as much for self-reflection, as it was for anyone else...I truly appreciated the man's words and thought others might, as well...

 

[it's just me]

I can assure you that your approach to leading others to Christ is much more effective,convincing, and biblically sound that 'some' of the mean spirited, hateful trinitarians here in this forum. That's for damn sure.

If that's the case, when are you and POS going to repent and turn to Christ?

 

[Logician Man]

Thank you, LM...I certainly hope so...my reason for posting this video was as much for self-reflection, as it was for anyone else...I truly appreciated the man's words and thought others might, as well...

It was an excellent video. Good message and well delivered. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[tosca1]

"A time to be silent and a time to speak;" Ecclesiastes 3:1:7
The key is in knowing when to speak and when to keep silent...

That's right. Your posts getting soundly rebutted not enough?
Now, you even resort to agreeing to even silly or irrational opinion? From someone who profess to be a non-Christian, to boot.
You're spiralling down! Heed to Solomon. This is the time for you to be silent.

So, be silent now.

Thank you, LM...I certainly hope so...my reason for posting this video was as much for self-reflection, as it was for anyone else...I truly appreciated the man's words and thought others might, as well...

Therefore, listen to him, too.

Stop arguing now - stop feeding LM - just be a viewer.



And since you brought up Ecclesiastes 3 - let's read this part:

Ecclesiastes 3

14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it.

God does it so that people will fear him.



So.....if God said there will be eternal punishment - we don't super-impose our own assumptions into it.
We don't, and can't say, "nah.....He won't do that! He's a loving God!"
It's not for us mere men, to correct Him and edit what He'd said.

 

[tosca1]

"Be agitated, but do not sin.
Have your say in your heart, upon your bed, and keep silent." Psalm 4:4

Here is the "be silent" part of Psalm 4, in its context:


Psalm 4

1
Answer me when I call to you,
my righteous God.
Give me relief from my distress;
have mercy on me and hear my prayer.

2
How long will you people turn my glory into shame?
How long will you love delusions and seek false gods?
3
Know that the Lord has set apart his faithful servant for himself;
the Lord hears when I call to him.

4
Tremble and do not sin;
when you are on your beds,
search your hearts and be silent.
5
Offer the sacrifices of the righteous
and trust in the Lord.

6
Many, Lord, are asking, “Who will bring us prosperity?”
Let the light of your face shine on us.
7
Fill my heart with joy
when their grain and new wine abound.

8
In peace I will lie down and sleep,
for you alone, Lord,
make me dwell in safety.

 

[PoS]

Exactly...no matter where a Christian is, it is good to remember we are always representing our God...may I never cause Him embarrassment or shame...one can turn a person away from God quicker than anything with their attitude, actions, and words, regardless of where they are...

"A time to be silent and a time to speak;" Ecclesiastes 3:1:7

"Be agitated, but do not sin.
Have your say in your heart, upon your bed, and keep silent." Psalm 4:4

The key is in knowing when to speak and when to keep silent...

Yup, which is the message of the video to anyone who actually watches it.

 

[Daisy]

Yup, which is the message of the video to anyone who actually watches it.

True...I get the feeling some did not watch and some who did are too busy pointing a finger at someone else...we all know what happens when you do that...there are 3 pointing back atcha...:2razz:

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

That may be true when you speak about our world's politics.

But Christianity, is not speaking of this world's politics.

Of course it is. Jesus certainly did not look to government to solve problems but neither did he speak against the government, i.e. 'render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's.' And all interaction between people is political.

His parable of the Good Samaritan was very pertinent for modern times. The Samaritans were despised by the Jews as low class, inferior, etc. dating all the way back to the Patriarchs. Yet by the parable he indicated how a Samaritan was a good neighbor to the injured Jew. And of course the inference was that despite differences in culture, ideology, religion etc., the hatred of the Samaritan was misplaced.

The lesson for us is that we do not have to think alike, believe alike etc. in order to get along and share the same space, the same country, the same planet in peace.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

The fact remains that......He didn't back down from creating a conflict!
We can even say that He started the conflict!


My point: how will we spread the Gospel - the TRUE Gospel - if we don't want to create some waves due to the message?

Our message is sure to ruffle some feathers: telling someone there is a God. telling someone his god isn't the true God. telling someone he's sinner and he needs salvation. telling someone his lifestyle is an offense to God. that he needs to change his ways.

Why did Jesus warn us that we'll be hated by the world? Because our message will be creating conflicts!
If we simply do all the Christian stuff but shut up about the Gospel - are we going to be hated at all? No!
We'll be loved!


In fact, a non-Christian just used an argument about something like that - twisting Jesus' teachings - and saying that Christians should be loved!



Lol. Did you see all the ruffled feathers of anti-Gods in this forum - that pursue every thread about God??


Elvira created this thread and gave that video for a reason.
Elvira had unwittingly opened a can of worms - or, she'd kicked some sleeping dogs.

I think - and this is just my own opinion - that it could be she's trying to appeal to those who are now aggressively exposing JW - something which she cannot defend in a logical head-to-head discussion, an attempt to get them to back down...............by USING THIS VIDEO! :lol:

Like I've said, a forum situation isn't like your everyday interaction with other people.
We come here to discuss and debate!



Thus I asked Elvira, will she stop posting anything that would get the rise out of posters?
Like the way she posted an attack on Trinitarians? Because, I can just as easily say that her post came out as a bait - to deliberately vex Trinitarians!

But of course, this is a forum. We know what to expect. Enter at your own risk.
If a Trinitarian doesn't want to read posts like Elivira's, then stay out of forums - especially the Religion section. And vice versa to anyone who doesn't want getting challenged.


Do we debate with people on the streets? Do I aggressively challenge JW or Mormons knocking on my door? I speak for myself - I don't!

Is Elvira not to express her ideas, opinions and beliefs on a message board designed for exchange of ideas, opinions, and beliefs? I do not subscribe to the JW doctrines and accept that they think my beliefs are in error. But how does their expressing their beliefs and opinions harm or interfere with me in any way? If I do not choose to participate on a thread discussing that, what difference should that make to anybody else. If I choose to debate the pros and cons of differing beliefs and opinions, what difference should that make to anybody else?

Intellectual diversity and tolerance is the very cornerstone of liberty, and all our liberties spring from that. Those who value such liberty and want the right to be who and what we are and to not be punished for expressing our opinions and ideas cannot be intellecually honest if we do not allow others the same.

And to avoid a society regressing into intellectual stagnation and the intolerance and injustice that invariably springs from that, ALL points of view should be welcome, even invited.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

It was a harsh rebuke, to say the least!

Just read some of His words towards them in Matthew 23! Read the seven woes!


And in John 8, He rebuked them for their opinion!


John 8

Dispute Over Jesus’ Testimony

12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

13 The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”



22 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”

23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”




Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
Jesus’ Claims About Himself

48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”

49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.





*******Note: had to shorten the chapter. To be continued....too long.

Again he was not rebuking them because he disagreed with them. He rebuked them because they required strict orthodoxy while they themselves did--that is ACTED or BEHAVED--in evil ways. He was rebuking them for their intolerant and hateful behavior, not for speaking error.

We are to defend against evil actions, not against ideas, concepts, beliefs, or the differences between people.

 

[Daisy]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Is Elvira not to express her ideas, opinions and beliefs on a message board designed for exchange of ideas, opinions, and beliefs? I do not subscribe to the JW doctrines and accept that they think my beliefs are in error. But how does their expressing their beliefs and opinions harm or interfere with me in any way? If I do not choose to participate on a thread discussing that, what difference should that make to anybody else. If I choose to debate the pros and cons of differing beliefs and opinions, what difference should that make to anybody else?

Intellectual diversity and tolerance is the very cornerstone of liberty, and all our liberties spring from that. Those who value such liberty and want the right to be who and what we are and to not be punished for expressing our opinions and ideas cannot be intellecually honest if we do not allow others the same.

And to avoid a society regressing into intellectual stagnation and the intolerance and injustice that invariably springs from that, ALL points of view should be welcome, even invited.

Thank you, Albq...there are plenty of threads I don't trek into because I know right away, by the title, they are against what I believe...and the ones I do and want to comment on, I usually state what I think and move on without spamming the thread...spamming any thread, repeating the same thing over and over, only shows what an ass the annoying spammer is...it surely reflects on no one else...

 

[tosca1]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Of course it is. Jesus certainly did not look to government to solve problems but neither did he speak against the government, i.e. 'render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's.' And all interaction between people is political.

His parable of the Good Samaritan was very pertinent for modern times. The Samaritans were despised by the Jews as low class, inferior, etc. dating all the way back to the Patriarchs. Yet by the parable he indicated how a Samaritan was a good neighbor to the injured Jew. And of course the inference was that despite differences in culture, ideology, religion etc., the hatred of the Samaritan was misplaced.

He did not involve Himself in politics.

As for the Good Samaritan - no one's saying we shouldn't be helping those in need, regardless of color or creed.
I don't know why the term "hatred" is injected into this discussion!

You do agree that there is a fine line between helping non-Christians, and practically being alongside with them, right?


2 Corinthians 6
Warning Against Idolatry

14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?
Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?


We saw what happened to the Jews in the Old Testament - when they inter-married, or got too close with non-believers! They ended up walking away from God!

We see it happening now - with this new progressive thinking - people (even some Christians) are now saying - "there are many paths to God!" Or, "One God, many paths."


God has His reason why He forbade the Jews to get close with non-believers!
The same principle applies to Christians in the New Testament!

The idea is that the pagan, wicked, unbelieving world is governed by the principles of Satan and that Christians should be separate from that wicked world, just as Christ was separate from all the methods, purposes, and plans of Satan. He had no participation in them; He formed no union with them, and so it should be with the followers of the one in relation to the followers of the other. Attempting to live a Christian life with a non-Christian for our close friend and ally will only cause us to go around in circles.

https://www.gotquestions.org/unequally-yoked.html

The lesson for us is that we do not have to think alike, believe alike etc. in order to get along and share the same space, the same country, the same planet in peace.

No one says we have to think alike! If we all think alike - and believe alike - what's the point of being given the Great Commission?

There is nothing wrong with what you hope for (how Americans should be with one another) - but, let's not imply that it's what Christianity is all about. It's not.

In our world right now, to have unity means to make compromises.

Are you saying what's written in the Scriptures can, and should be compromised?

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Thank you, Albq...there are plenty of threads I don't trek into because I know right away, by the title, they are against what I believe...and the ones I do and want to comment on, I usually state what I think and move on without spamming the thread...spamming any thread, repeating the same thing over and over, only shows what an ass the annoying spammer is...it surely reflects on no one else...

I don't visit some threads for the same reason. I know that the topic will be of the narrow minded, intolerant, hateful toward any opposing view sort. No actual debate will be allowed to happen, it will immediately go ad hominem, and that makes such threads a colossal waste of time.

Disclaimer: That should not be interpreted that all threads I don't visit fall into that narrow minded, intolerant, hateful toward any opposing view category. With limited time, I pick and choose topics I feel the most strongly about and/or are the most interested in and don't always participate in threads even when I see a good topic offered by somebody who actually honestly wants to discuss an idea, principle, concept, or event.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

He did not involve Himself in politics.

As for the Good Samaritan - no one's saying we shouldn't be helping those in need, regardless of color or creed.
I don't know why the term "hatred" is injected into this discussion!

You do agree that there is a fine line between helping non-Christians, and practically being alongside with them, right?


2 Corinthians 6
Warning Against Idolatry

14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?
Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?


We saw what happened to the Jews in the Old Testament - when they inter-married, or got too close with non-believers! They ended up walking away from God!

We see it happening now - with this new progressive thinking - people (even some Christians) are now saying - "there are many paths to God!" Or, "One God, many paths."


God has His reason why He forbade the Jews to get close with non-believers!
The same principle applies to Christians in the New Testament!


https://www.gotquestions.org/unequally-yoked.html






No one says we have to think alike! If we all think alike - and believe alike - what's the point of being given the Great Commission?

There is nothing wrong with what you hope for (how Americans should be with one another) - but, let's not imply that it's what Christianity is all about. It's not.

In our world right now, to have unity means to make compromises.

Are you saying what's written in the Scriptures can, and should be compromised?

Plenty think we should all think alike, speak with one voice, believe in the same way and are more than happy to accuse, blame, insult, threaten, harass, or punish anybody who thinks, speaks, believes differently. Jesus didn't teach that. Pure and simple.

 

[tosca1]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Is Elvira not to express her ideas, opinions and beliefs on a message board designed for exchange of ideas, opinions, and beliefs?

Why do you ask me? Ask her! She's the one who created this thread, giving us that video!

She truly expressed herself repeatedly against Christian religion that believe in the Trinity, eternal punishments, etc - nothing wrong with her bringing those up, mind you. This is a forum after all. But, others can give their opinion too, and/or challenge her claims.

There's been some expose' given about JW. She won't be able to defend them, so......she seemed to have decided to change the goalpost, instead. By giving us this video! :lol:

Maybe, you shoukld check out the threads that's been started by Elvira. I am simply responding to them.

I do not subscribe to the JW doctrines and accept that they think my beliefs are in error. But how does their expressing their beliefs and opinions harm or interfere with me in any way? If I do not choose to participate on a thread discussing that, what difference should that make to anybody else. If I choose to debate the pros and cons of differing beliefs and opinions, what difference should that make to anybody else?

It doesn't need to interfere with mine. I'm in a forum.....and I'm simply partaking in it! This is what a forum is for!

Intellectual diversity and tolerance is the very cornerstone of liberty, and all our liberties spring from that. Those who value such liberty and want the right to be who and what we are and to not be punished for expressing our opinions and ideas cannot be intellecually honest if we do not allow others the same.

That's all irrelevant! We are in a forum.

And to avoid a society regressing into intellectual stagnation and the intolerance and injustice that invariably springs from that, ALL points of view should be welcome, even invited.

This is a non-issue, as far as I'm concerned. This is a forum.

 

[tosca1]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Plenty think we should all think alike, speak with one voice, believe in the same way and are more than happy to accuse, blame, insult, threaten, harass, or punish anybody who thinks, speaks, believes differently. Jesus didn't teach that. Pure and simple.

let's be clear here.


In the name of this peace that seems so elusive........

...........are you willing to compromise what's written in the Scriptures?

 

[Daisy]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Plenty think we should all think alike, speak with one voice, believe in the same way and are more than happy to accuse, blame, insult, threaten, harass, or punish anybody who thinks, speaks, believes differently. Jesus didn't teach that. Pure and simple.

Like Paul said..."Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand." Romans 14:4

Paul’s question reminds us to leave the judging in Jehovah’s hands, where it rightfully belongs...we are merely the messengers...

 

[tosca1]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Again he was not rebuking them because he disagreed with them. He rebuked them because they required strict orthodoxy while they themselves did--that is ACTED or BEHAVED--in evil ways. He was rebuking them for their intolerant and hateful behavior, not for speaking error.

We are to defend against evil actions, not against ideas, concepts, beliefs, or the differences between people.

He rebuked them for both! What are those red font, if not their expressed opinion?
When they added to God's Word - what are those new rules but their own opinion?


Mark 7

6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’

8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!

 

[tosca1]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

We are to defend against evil actions, not against ideas, concepts, beliefs, or the differences between people.

WRONG!

Most evil actions start out as IDEAS! Or, CONCEPTS. Or, BELIEFS!


You think Hitler just did what he did on the spur of the moment?
His genocide was just a "crime of passion?"
There was no idea or concept.....or any planning involved?

Or, the 9/11 terrorists just suddenly decided, "Oh, let's fly into these towers today?"


However, most evil actions stem from an idea or concept that's deemed as "good."
They think they're doing something good!

Who ever started a movement saying, "let's start something evil?"