[W:148] Affirmative Action promotes systemic racial discrimination.

[TurtleDude]

Naw..you are the one proven to be full of bovine excrement.
Look . You are welcome to provide some resources or studies that show things like redlining..or segregation, or differing rates for minorities for home loans
NEVER HAPPENED.
Perhaps you can include your references that all the kids bumped by aa are poor disadvantaged whites and Asians that lost their chance at college.

none of that proves your claim that the thousands upon thousands of whites who were victimized by affirmative racial discrimination were rich. You do know top state school such as U of Texas at Austin, U-Cal Berk. and U-Cal LA had affirmative action. what was the percentage of black students before and after California sort of banned race in being used as a factor for affirmative action? then multiply that number by the student body-and you will see ARD resulted in far more than a "few rich white" kids not getting into their first choice

 

[jaeger19]

none of that proves your claim that the thousands upon thousands of whites who were victimized by affirmative racial discrimination were rich. You do know top state school such as U of Texas at Austin, U-Cal Berk. and U-Cal LA had affirmative action. what was the percentage of black students before and after California sort of banned race in being used as a factor for affirmative action? then multiply that number by the student body-and you will see ARD resulted in far more than a "few rich white" kids not getting into their first choice

Thousands upon thousands? Please provide evidence that elite colleges gives anywhere close to the number spots to aa candidates to comprise thousands and thousands.
Cripes.. the country would be overflowing with black doctors and lawyers..
Look man just show your numbers let's see tge numbers that got in due to aa. Then show the number of white kids that didn't and never went to college such they were" victimized. "
I'll tell you what..why don't you bring forth all your examples of racism against whites and victimization...
And I'll bring examples of black folks and what segregation was like...come now..stop being silly.

 

[rahl]

Yeah they were not opinion pieces but gave quantitative data that showed differences between white homes and black homes.

Yea, no. One was an opinion piece and the other was a blog.

And showed the difference after controlling for factors other than race.

No, they made baseless assumptions like you are doing.

And there still was discrepancy.

Yes, homes in crime ridden areas tend to not appraise as high as those that aren't. In other news, water is wet.

The pieces outlined how areas that were redlined grew at a slower pace than those that were not.. '( again quantified).

No, assumed. Correlation =/= causation

And I gave supporting documentation on how much school districts rely on home values for budget and also data on how what advanced programs were offered by a school how it would affect GPA.

None of which supports your baseless opinion of "systemic racism" regarding GPA discrepancies.

So either you are being wonderfully obtuse..
Or you are not able to understand the data.

You haven't provided any data. You provided an opinion piece about home prices, a blog about home prices, and the one actual attempt you made regarding the topic we are actually discussing, which is entrance exams, DID NOT MENTION RACISM ANYWHERE IN IT"S FINDINGS.

So again man, we get it. You still think that if you repeat your baseless opinion enough times, it will then become fact. I'm here to correct you on that misconception as many times as you need.

 

[TurtleDude]

Thousands upon thousands? Please provide evidence that elite colleges gives anywhere close to the number spots to aa candidates to comprise thousands and thousands.
Cripes.. the country would be overflowing with black doctors and lawyers..
Look man just show your numbers let's see tge numbers that got in due to aa. Then show the number of white kids that didn't and never went to college such they were" victimized. "
I'll tell you what..why don't you bring forth all your examples of racism against whites and victimization...
And I'll bring examples of black folks and what segregation was like...come now..stop being silly.

how many schools have practiced affirmative action? for the last 50 years?

this is about California-not the ivies, not other elite public schools like U of Texas, Rutgers, U of NC, U of VA and top private schools

Dropping affirmative action had huge impact on California’s public universities

When California voters in 1996 rejected affirmative action, CSU and UC could no longer consider race and ethnicity in admissions, making a huge impact on the public universities.

edsource.org

https://www.roanoke.edu/documents/Christian_Weisenbacher_Breithaupt%20%281%29.pdf

Bowen and Bok (1998), for example, examined the admissions decisions of five highly selective institutions in 1989 and found that eliminating affirmative action would reduce "the overall probability of admission for black applicants from its actual value of 42 percent in 1989 to a hypothetical value of 13 percent'' (32). Espenshade, Chung, and Walling (2004), analyzing admissions data from three highly selective institutions in the early 1980s, 1993, and 1997, found that the odds of admission for black and Hispanic applicants were 5.5 and 3.7 times that of comparable white applicants, respectively. (2007, 317)

do the math-thousands of white students denied admissions over the years

 

[jaeger19]

how many schools have practiced affirmative action? for the last 50 years?

this is about California-not the ivies, not other elite public schools like U of Texas, Rutgers, U of NC, U of VA and top private schools

Dropping affirmative action had huge impact on California’s public universities

When California voters in 1996 rejected affirmative action, CSU and UC could no longer consider race and ethnicity in admissions, making a huge impact on the public universities.

edsource.org

https://www.roanoke.edu/documents/Christian_Weisenbacher_Breithaupt%20%281%29.pdf

Bowen and Bok (1998), for example, examined the admissions decisions of five highly selective institutions in 1989 and found that eliminating affirmative action would reduce "the overall probability of admission for black applicants from its actual value of 42 percent in 1989 to a hypothetical value of 13 percent'' (32). Espenshade, Chung, and Walling (2004), analyzing admissions data from three highly selective institutions in the early 1980s, 1993, and 1997, found that the odds of admission for black and Hispanic applicants were 5.5 and 3.7 times that of comparable white applicants, respectively. (2007, 317)

do the math-thousands of white students denied admissions over the years

Yes.. do the math turtle. Black Americans are a minority. Only 13% of Americans. The number who are college age are smaller ..the number that qualify for college is even smaller. The number applying to elite schools even smaller..the number getting through aa even smaller...and according to you..the ones getting in through aa are all rich..so that makes the pool even smaller. Lol.
You simply are not thinking this through.

Meanwhile conveniently forgetting that at the start..these kids are not starting at a level playing field. You ignore decades upon decades of racism..
Because a few rich white kids didn't get into their first choice school. And yes it's rich kids because they are the ones that can afford it if they get in. The ones that get scholarships are hardly likely bouncing on that bottom tier of just barely able to get in so they are displaced by an aa candidate with " inferior grades".
. Look dude.. I know why you are angry.. its because deep down you know I am right. Your smart. Cripes you were a lawyer..you saw it was an uneven playing field in the judicial system. As a prosecutor would you rather have a black male or a white male as a defendant? You know dang well it is easier to get a conviction on a black defendant.

It just burns you because you know I am right but it goes against the childhood myth you've learned since birth.. which is "what matters is how hard you work and your ability in America. " but it's just a myth. It's especially hard for you because you want to believe that your success was only due to your hard work.. and not in part because your family was rich and white.
My advantage is that I am white.. and my parents are so they were able to do things like buy a home in a neighborhood with good schools. Something that black people didn't often have the opportunity.

Look I get it. Before I was older and did research into this..I felt as you did. I first went to an elite public school where i was almost a minority being white and Christian. I never saw so many black people before. And the whining about how they had it bad being black...and how white people had " spoons in their mouths" .
And I remember saying.." umm you are at the same school I am.. you are on full scholarship while your parents make twice what mine make"
Oh the debates. .
But I am older and more experienced and know more. And I know that I don't have to worry when a cop pulls me over. And I don't worry about being followed by security in stores. When I go to the bank the loan officer will likely be white and in rotary with me. I don't worry about being treated differently because of my race.

 

[jaeger19]

Yea, no. One was an opinion piece and the other was a blog.

No, they made baseless assumptions like you are doing.

Yes, homes in crime ridden areas tend to not appraise as high as those that aren't. In other news, water is wet.

No, assumed. Correlation =/= causation

None of which supports your baseless opinion of "systemic racism" regarding GPA discrepancies.

You haven't provided any data. You provided an opinion piece about home prices, a blog about home prices, and the one actual attempt you made regarding the topic we are actually discussing, which is entrance exams, DID NOT MENTION RACISM ANYWHERE IN IT"S FINDINGS.

So again man, we get it. You still think that if you repeat your baseless opinion enough times, it will then become fact. I'm here to correct you on that misconception as many times as you need.

Naw. I presented a number of references with quantifiable disparities.
You can't understand the relationships and what they mean that's on you.

 

[rahl]

Naw. I presented a number of references with quantifiable disparities.

lol, no. As I keep reminding you, you simply presented an opinion article, and a blog, to try and support your own opinion. There was no quantitative data that showed any causal relationship.

You can't understand the relationships and what they mean that's on you.

I understand perfectly, which is why I keep calling you out for presenting mere opinion as if it were fact. The closest you came was to provide a study, about NC GPA differences, WHICH DID NOT SO MUCH AS EVEN MENTION THE WORD RACISM, at any point in the study.

But don't worry, I'm happy to keep correcting you on your misconception that your opinion, if you simply repeat it enough, will eventually become fact.

 

[jaeger19]

lol, no. As I keep reminding you, you simply presented an opinion article, and a blog, to try and support your own opinion. There was no quantitative data that showed any causal relationship.

I understand perfectly, which is why I keep calling you out for presenting mere opinion as if it were fact. The closest you came was to provide a study, about NC GPA differences, WHICH DID NOT SO MUCH AS EVEN MENTION THE WORD RACISM, at any point in the study.

But don't worry, I'm happy to keep correcting you on your misconception that your opinion, if you simply repeat it enough, will eventually become fact.

Yeah no. It's clear that you simply could not understand the research. I guess you can keep making ignorant claims but..well you just make yourself look foolish.

Freddie Mac Finds ‘Pervasive’ Bias in Home Appraisal Industry

A new study augments a body of evidence that homes in Black and Latino neighborhoods are undervalued.

www.bloomberg.com

Harvard study finds people with black-sounding names have a harder time booking on Airbnb

Airbnb's home rental system might have a racial discrimination problem, according to this Harvard study.

www.businessinsider.com

Racial Discrimination and Housing Outcomes in the United States Rental Market

Founded in 1920, the NBER is a private, non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to conducting economic research and to disseminating research findings among academics, public policy makers, and business professionals.

www.nber.org

Unequal Opportunity: Race and Education | Brookings

Brookings Review article by Linda Darling-Hammond (Spring 1998)

www.brookings.edu

 

[rahl]

Yeah no. It's clear that you simply could not understand the research. I guess you can keep making ignorant claims but..well you just make yourself look foolish.

Freddie Mac Finds ‘Pervasive’ Bias in Home Appraisal Industry

A new study augments a body of evidence that homes in Black and Latino neighborhoods are undervalued.

www.bloomberg.com

Harvard study finds people with black-sounding names have a harder time booking on Airbnb

Airbnb's home rental system might have a racial discrimination problem, according to this Harvard study.

www.businessinsider.com

Racial Discrimination and Housing Outcomes in the United States Rental Market

Founded in 1920, the NBER is a private, non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to conducting economic research and to disseminating research findings among academics, public policy makers, and business professionals.

www.nber.org

Unequal Opportunity: Race and Education | Brookings

Brookings Review article by Linda Darling-Hammond (Spring 1998)

www.brookings.edu

Lol, you can throw up all the opinion pieces you want. I will keep on reminding you that repeating your opinion does not magically make it fact. It's amusing though that you keep deflecting to real estate, and other nonsense that has nothing to do with what we are discussing, which is entrance exams to schools and GPA's. You've completely abandoned this argument, because you've apparently been able to accept the fact that your baseless opinions and assertions are................baseless.

We are making progress though. I'd say another 4-5 pages of you repeating your opinion, and me reminding you that no matter how many times you repeat your opinion, it does not magically make it fact, and you'll accept that reality as well.

 

[jaeger19]

Lol, you can throw up all the opinion pieces you want. I will keep on reminding you that repeating your opinion does not magically make it fact. It's amusing though that you keep deflecting to real estate, and other nonsense that has nothing to do with what we are discussing, which is entrance exams to schools and GPA's. You've completely abandoned this argument, because you've apparently been able to accept the fact that your baseless opinions and assertions are................baseless.

We are making progress though. I'd say another 4-5 pages of you repeating your opinion, and me reminding you that no matter how many times you repeat your opinion, it does not magically make it fact, and you'll accept that reality as well.

Naw..I can just keep putting up facts and data..that all the references I put up are filled with. Objective..quantifiable data on racial disparity.
By the way..one of the articles I referenced showed the racial fidparity in classrooms and their effect on gpas.
Look we get it. You aren't capable of understanding a rather easy concept.
That property values influence school finances and school finances influence the educational opportunities of their students and thus their GPA.
We know that you never read any of the references posted much less understood them.
You can post your opinions without a shred of evidence and I will keep posting evidence. Lmao
Some more on the sat

On White Preferences by Jay Rosner, Admissions Test Expert

www.jayrosner.com

 

[rahl]

Naw..I can just keep putting up facts and data..

You haven't done that yet though. Opinion pieces, blogs, and irrelevant studies about housing prices have nothing to do with the topic we are discussing, which is your inability to quantify "systemic racism" and GPA/Entrance exams.

that all the references I put up are filled with. Objective..quantifiable data on racial disparity.

Which is irrelevant to the topic we are discussing. You can't show a causal relationship, you have at BEST a correlation.

By the way..one of the articles I referenced showed the racial fidparity in classrooms and their effect on gpas.

No, it didn't. It gave it's OPINION about it. The did not, because they can not, show a causal effect.

Look we get it. You aren't capable of understanding a rather easy concept.

It's ok. Everyone understands that you still need more time to accept the fact that you can't repeat your opinion until it becomes fact. I will happily keep reminding you though.

That property values influence school finances and school finances influence the educational opportunities of their students and thus their GPA.

Nope. Because whites and asians in those same schools have higher GPA's. They live in those same neighborhoods. It's why the only actual study you managed to post, which was even remotely relevant (NC GPA's) did not so much as even mention racism.

We know that you never read any of the references posted much less understood them.

We both know I've read them, and have correctly pointed out that they have nothing to do with what we are discussing. We also both know (you really do know deep down) that if you keep repeating your opinions they will not magically become fact.

You can post your opinions without a shred of evidence and I will keep posting evidence. Lmao

I haven't posted any opinions. I have and will continue correcting your misconception that your opinion, if repeated enough, will magically become fact.

 

[TurtleDude]

Yes.. do the math turtle. Black Americans are a minority. Only 13% of Americans. The number who are college age are smaller ..the number that qualify for college is even smaller. The number applying to elite schools even smaller..the number getting through aa even smaller...and according to you..the ones getting in through aa are all rich..so that makes the pool even smaller. Lol.
You simply are not thinking this through.

Meanwhile conveniently forgetting that at the start..these kids are not starting at a level playing field. You ignore decades upon decades of racism..
Because a few rich white kids didn't get into their first choice school. And yes it's rich kids because they are the ones that can afford it if they get in. The ones that get scholarships are hardly likely bouncing on that bottom tier of just barely able to get in so they are displaced by an aa candidate with " inferior grades".
. Look dude.. I know why you are angry.. its because deep down you know I am right. Your smart. Cripes you were a lawyer..you saw it was an uneven playing field in the judicial system. As a prosecutor would you rather have a black male or a white male as a defendant? You know dang well it is easier to get a conviction on a black defendant.

It just burns you because you know I am right but it goes against the childhood myth you've learned since birth.. which is "what matters is how hard you work and your ability in America. " but it's just a myth. It's especially hard for you because you want to believe that your success was only due to your hard work.. and not in part because your family was rich and white.
My advantage is that I am white.. and my parents are so they were able to do things like buy a home in a neighborhood with good schools. Something that black people didn't often have the opportunity.

Look I get it. Before I was older and did research into this..I felt as you did. I first went to an elite public school where i was almost a minority being white and Christian. I never saw so many black people before. And the whining about how they had it bad being black...and how white people had " spoons in their mouths" .
And I remember saying.." umm you are at the same school I am.. you are on full scholarship while your parents make twice what mine make"
Oh the debates. .
But I am older and more experienced and know more. And I know that I don't have to worry when a cop pulls me over. And I don't worry about being followed by security in stores. When I go to the bank the loan officer will likely be white and in rotary with me. I don't worry about being treated differently because of my race.

1000s of whites and asians in California alone, have been victimized by affirmative racism

 

[TurtleDude]

Yeah no. It's clear that you simply could not understand the research. I guess you can keep making ignorant claims but..well you just make yourself look foolish.

Freddie Mac Finds ‘Pervasive’ Bias in Home Appraisal Industry

A new study augments a body of evidence that homes in Black and Latino neighborhoods are undervalued.

www.bloomberg.com

Harvard study finds people with black-sounding names have a harder time booking on Airbnb

Airbnb's home rental system might have a racial discrimination problem, according to this Harvard study.

www.businessinsider.com

Racial Discrimination and Housing Outcomes in the United States Rental Market

Founded in 1920, the NBER is a private, non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to conducting economic research and to disseminating research findings among academics, public policy makers, and business professionals.

www.nber.org

Unequal Opportunity: Race and Education | Brookings

Brookings Review article by Linda Darling-Hammond (Spring 1998)

www.brookings.edu

WTF does that have to do with more meritorious Asian and white kids getting passed over at UCLA in favor of less qualified black kids?

 

[jaeger19]

You haven't done that yet though. Opinion pieces, blogs, and irrelevant studies about housing prices have nothing to do with the topic we are discussing, which is your inability to quantify "systemic racism" and GPA/Entrance exams.

Which is irrelevant to the topic we are discussing. You can't show a causal relationship, you have at BEST a correlation.

No, it didn't. It gave it's OPINION about it. The did not, because they can not, show a causal effect.

It's ok. Everyone understands that you still need more time to accept the fact that you can't repeat your opinion until it becomes fact. I will happily keep reminding you though.

Nope. Because whites and asians in those same schools have higher GPA's. They live in those same neighborhoods. It's why the only actual study you managed to post, which was even remotely relevant (NC GPA's) did not so much as even mention racism.

We both know I've read them, and have correctly pointed out that they have nothing to do with what we are discussing. We also both know (you really do know deep down) that if you keep repeating your opinions they will not magically become fact.

I haven't posted any opinions. I have and will continue correcting your misconception that your opinion, if repeated enough, will magically become fact.

Blah blah blah.
You didn't read them or you would stop saying they are opinion pieces when they reference multiple studies with objective results.
As far as north Carolina study. You missed this.
"This finding likely indicates, as has been demonstrated elsewhere in the report (see Advanced Placement Courses, Honors Courses), that non-Asian student groups of color have lower performance than White and Asian students in advanced courses, but also that they have diminished access to the advanced course options that can boost weighted GPA. "
Non Asian groups of color have
"Diminished access to advanced courses"
Gee you ridiculous dude..could that have to do with school funding?

Of course not right.? Sheesh
You don't get it because you font want to get it. The lower scores on GPA in part are not necessarily the result of direct racism.... i.e. school systems choosing not to offer advanced classes to black and non Asian minority students.

But the result of of institutional racism.. like in housing...which affects neighborhood wealth and thus school financing.

 

[rahl]

Blah blah blah.

As I keep reminding you, you can repeat your opinions all you want, until it finally sinks in that they do not magically become fact just because you keep repeating them.

I will also keep reminding you that your one and ONLY attempt to post something relevant to the topic (NC GPA's) did not so much as mention racism anywhere in it's findings.

 

[jaeger19]

1000s of whites and asians in California alone, have been victimized by affirmative racism

Shall we discuss the millions of minorities affected by segregation..redlining..and other state sponsored and private sponsored discrimination.?
Let's see who was affected more..
Wanna take that Pepsi challenge?
Didn't think so. Lmao

 

[TurtleDude]

Blah blah blah.
You didn't read them or you would stop saying they are opinion pieces when they reference multiple studies with objective results.
As far as north Carolina study. You missed this.
"This finding likely indicates, as has been demonstrated elsewhere in the report (see Advanced Placement Courses, Honors Courses), that non-Asian student groups of color have lower performance than White and Asian students in advanced courses, but also that they have diminished access to the advanced course options that can boost weighted GPA. "
Non Asian groups of color have
"Diminished access to advanced courses"
Gee you ridiculous dude..could that have to do with school funding?

Of course not right.? Sheesh
You don't get it because you font want to get it. The lower scores on GPA in part are not necessarily the result of direct racism.... i.e. school systems choosing not to offer advanced classes to black and non Asian minority students.

But the result of of institutional racism.. like in housing...which affects neighborhood wealth and thus school financing.

how is some white or Asian kid-age 18, applying to Harvard or UCLA-responsible for "institutional racism"?

 

[jaeger19]

As I keep reminding you, you can repeat your opinions all you want, until it finally sinks in that they do not magically become fact just because you keep repeating them.

I can just keep posting facts.

 

[TurtleDude]

Shall we discuss the millions of minorities affected by segregation..redlining..and other state sponsored and private sponsored discrimination.?
Let's see who was affected more..
Wanna take that Pepsi challenge?
Didn't think so. Lmao

not relevant-FOCUS-this is about applicants to very selective schools being pissed on because of their race.

 

[rahl]

I can just keep posting facts.

You will actually need to do that, for the first time. So far, you've posted nothing but baseless opinions. Your one and ONLY attempt to provide an actual study that is relevant to the topic (NC GPA's) did not so much as even mention racism anywhere in it's findings.

 

[TurtleDude]

I can just keep posting facts.

YOU HAVE YET TO POST A FACT that counters the FACT that affirmative action RACIALLY DISCRIMINATES AGAINST WHITES AND ASIANS

 

[jaeger19]

how is some white or Asian kid-age 18, applying to Harvard or UCLA-responsible for "institutional racism"?

We have had this discussion.
I am tired of repeating myself.
Honestly you are being obtuse.

 

[TurtleDude]

We have had this discussion.
I am tired of repeating myself.
Honestly you are being obtuse.

you continually post irrelevant nonsense
you continue to try to justify specific racial discrimination against the blameless, by generic tales of discrimination that may or MAY NOT have affected those inferior students who benefit from affirmative racial discrimination

 

[jaeger19]

You will actually need to do that, for the first time. So far, you've posted nothing but baseless opinions. Your one and ONLY attempt to provide an actual study that is relevant to the topic (NC GPA's) did not so much as even mention racism anywhere in it's findings.

Oh no..I just keep posting them.
It's fun making you look silly.

Race and Ethnic Differences in College Achievement: Does High School Attended Matter? - PMC

This paper uses 10 years of enrollment data at four Texas public universities to examine whether, to what extent, and in what ways high school attended contributes to racial and ethnic differences in college achievement. Like previous studies, we ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[GummyVitamins]

Oh no..I just keep posting them.
It's fun making you look silly.

Race and Ethnic Differences in College Achievement: Does High School Attended Matter? - PMC

This paper uses 10 years of enrollment data at four Texas public universities to examine whether, to what extent, and in what ways high school attended contributes to racial and ethnic differences in college achievement. Like previous studies, we ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So your argument is now that students who attend colleges after graduating from poor high schools do worse in college? And you're using this as an example to show what exactly?