[W:148] Affirmative Action promotes systemic racial discrimination.

[TurtleDude]

Get back with me when you learn what a 'blanket statement' is---like the one you put forth in your post# 2004 in this thread.

get back to me when you honestly discuss what I said and how I noted that it is not a blanket statement that applies to whites and Asians.

 

[Logician Man]

get back to me when you honestly discuss what I said and how I noted that it is not a blanket statement that applies to whites and Asians.

If I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to call out any fellow DP member on 'dishonest discussion/posting' here at DP. Most of your 'debating' consists of 'you' telling other posters what 'they' think, and their motivations for posting what they post.

 

[jaeger19]

I don't mow the lawn-my wife does because she loves driving that massive lawn tractor I got her. I only shower and don't own slippers. Try again

you ignore those discriminated against by affirmative racism and you cannot prove
F

Of course I ignore it.
Cripes man.. tell you what..how about you gather up all the poor downtrodden victims of " affirmative action racism".
And I will gather up the victims of actual racism . Heck we could just start with the deeds that have come to light in our western state. Deeds from homes sold recently here that were discovered to have covenants stating..
" said premises shall not be sold to, rented,leased, conveyed to or occupied by any person other than of the white or Caucasian race.".
That's a deed from 1960.
That's just one generation ago.
So I'll tell you what..I'll round up folks who were denied the ability to buy a home. Despite working in the same job as their white coworker..
And you can explain to them that what they faced in racism pales in comparison to the racism of. Affirmative action.

 

[jaeger19]

there is no justification for turning down more qualified applicants at the very top schools due to race. People who don't have the same credentials can go to solid, but lower ranked schools. You clearly ignore reality. A black who is at a top law school but has far less talent than most of his peers, is more likely to drop out or fail the bar than if he was at a school where he is well matched with his other classmates

And as stated. That can only happen if the top schools either are very poor at teaching..
Or the treatment by the other students and staff harms the learning process.

You see your racial bias here right? You mention the black student in the lowest quintile..but you forget that there are a number of white students right in that lower section as well.
What about them? Why is it okay for them ?

 

[jaeger19]

yeah, except whites and Asians don't get into those top law schools with substandard grades. That's the point you seem to miss. your moronic comment about it being racially biased is stupid and your claim it is unsupported is a lie given the articles I have cited.

Okay wait..
So the issue for you..is that a black student znd a white student are both getting a lower grade than the rest of the class..i.e. in that lower quintile.
But it's a problem for you that the black fellow got in with a lower standard. Even though the white student and black student currently have the same grade..
Please explain.

 

[jaeger19]

Huh? Numerous studies give basically the same numbers. I gave two links, and can give more. Can you provide data or analysis showing that those studies are wrong?

Sorry but I did not see links in your quote..but let's see them.

I would really be curious to see that the reason my friends father could not buy a home in a white middle class neighborhood despite holding the same job as his white coworkers who lived in that neighborhood
Was because of his poor choices..and not the fact that he was a victim of red lineing
And discrimination in loans and interest rates for black men.

 

[LessBiased?]

Sorry but I did not see links in your quote..but let's see them.

I would really be curious to see that the reason my friends father could not buy a home in a white middle class neighborhood despite holding the same job as his white coworkers who lived in that neighborhood
Was because of his poor choices..and not the fact that he was a victim of red lineing
And discrimination in loans and interest rates for black men.

See posts 1941 and 1942. Just Google the topic and you can find many more sources of data on this.

When and where was he not able to buy a house? An anecdotal example of racism doesn’t mean that racism is a large problem overall - it once was, but the problem has gotten a lot smaller over the past several decades (adverse Trump effect notwithstanding).

 

[TurtleDude]

Okay wait..
So the issue for you..is that a black student znd a white student are both getting a lower grade than the rest of the class..i.e. in that lower quintile.
But it's a problem for you that the black fellow got in with a lower standard. Even though the white student and black student currently have the same grade..
Please explain.

you just don't get the obvious point. at schools such as Stanford or Columbia Law school, whites with lower scores DO NOT GET IN

 

[TurtleDude]

And as stated. That can only happen if the top schools either are very poor at teaching..
Or the treatment by the other students and staff harms the learning process.

You see your racial bias here right? You mention the black student in the lowest quintile..but you forget that there are a number of white students right in that lower section as well.
What about them? Why is it okay for them ?

there might be-but they were not almost guaranteed that because their scores were well below average

 

[jaeger19]

See posts 1941 and 1942. Just Google the topic and you can find many more sources of data on this.

When and where was he not able to buy a house? An anecdotal example of racism doesn’t mean that racism is a large problem overall - it once was, but the problem has gotten a lot smaller over the past several decades (adverse Trump effect notwithstanding).

He was not able to buy a house in NY in the 1970s. Which reduces the ability to develop generational wealth.
Instead of my friend having a father with a paid off house ..in a nice neighborhood.. he had to continue to pay rent that of course increased over time.
That reduced his parents ability to help with my friends college.
Meanwhile ..my parents were able to buy a house in 1970.s.
Which stabilized their housing costs which meant that my parents could help me with college expenses though I grew up lower middle class. And my parents will be able to pass the wealth of that house on to me when they die.
My friend will not have that advantage. Because he is black..and his parents did not have the same advantages as mine who are white.
That effect occurs now..even though that red lining took place a generation ago. I.e. decades ago.
Red lining etc is not anecdotal..its well established institutional racism.
And it's ongoing..from 2004 to 2009 wells Fargo was systematically discriminating against African American and Hispanic borrowers by charging higher mortgage rates than white borrowers with similar credit.
And this is just a piece of the discrimination that African Americans have faced and continue to face that effects their ability to grow wealth.
Far more than this supposed " poor choices business"
Yes I have Google these poor choices opinions. And they are racist bunk.
My favorite is the " destruction of the black home and now 70% of black children are born out of wedlock".
Pooh.. there has not been an explosion of unwed mothers have children. There has been a dramatic decrease in married black women having children. Which has flipped the statistic.
If in 1970 there were 100 black children born. 30 to unwed mothers and 70 to Wed mothers. That 70% children born to wed mothers.
Flash forward a few decades and now black people are having less children out of 50 children born 30 are to unwed mothers..and now 20 to Wed mothers.
Same number of unwed mothers as before..just married black women having less children
Then there is the assumption that an unwed mother or even a house with a single parent in it means that there is only one parent. But that is an erroneous assumption as more people live together unmarried and that out of house dads are still able to parent. In fact there are studies that show black dads are more attentive to their children even when out of the house more than white dads.

I suggest you do some actual research on these issues and then we can discuss.

 

[LessBiased?]

He was not able to buy a house in NY in the 1970s. Which reduces the ability to develop generational wealth.
Instead of my friend having a father with a paid off house ..in a nice neighborhood.. he had to continue to pay rent that of course increased over time.
That reduced his parents ability to help with my friends college.
Meanwhile ..my parents were able to buy a house in 1970.s.
Which stabilized their housing costs which meant that my parents could help me with college expenses though I grew up lower middle class. And my parents will be able to pass the wealth of that house on to me when they die.
My friend will not have that advantage. Because he is black..and his parents did not have the same advantages as mine who are white.
That effect occurs now..even though that red lining took place a generation ago. I.e. decades ago.
Red lining etc is not anecdotal..its well established institutional racism.
And it's ongoing..from 2004 to 2009 wells Fargo was systematically discriminating against African American and Hispanic borrowers by charging higher mortgage rates than white borrowers with similar credit.
And this is just a piece of the discrimination that African Americans have faced and continue to face that effects their ability to grow wealth.
Far more than this supposed " poor choices business"
Yes I have Google these poor choices opinions. And they are racist bunk.
My favorite is the " destruction of the black home and now 70% of black children are born out of wedlock".
Pooh.. there has not been an explosion of unwed mothers have children. There has been a dramatic decrease in married black women having children. Which has flipped the statistic.
If in 1970 there were 100 black children born. 30 to unwed mothers and 70 to Wed mothers. That 70% children born to wed mothers.
Flash forward a few decades and now black people are having less children out of 50 children born 30 are to unwed mothers..and now 20 to Wed mothers.
Same number of unwed mothers as before..just married black women having less children
Then there is the assumption that an unwed mother or even a house with a single parent in it means that there is only one parent. But that is an erroneous assumption as more people live together unmarried and that out of house dads are still able to parent. In fact there are studies that show black dads are more attentive to their children even when out of the house more than white dads.

I suggest you do some actual research on these issues and then we can discuss.

Yes, well discrimination was certainly worse in the 1970s than it is today. And yes, there's still some discrimination today, but it's not so bad that hardworking and capable black people are prevented from being highly successful.

Regarding unwed mothers, those stats come from the govt. If you have info suggesting that those stats are wrong, please provide links (as I did), rather than just making assertions.

I think you're well-intentioned, but you don't have an accurate picture of the 'race' situation.

By the way, 'race' is not really a valid concept biologically, since genetic variation among people ranges over a continuous spectrum, and there is actually more genetic variability within sub-Saharan Africa than in the rest of the world combined. In other words, there are no distinct 'races' with sharp boundaries.

 

[jaeger19]

there might be-but they were not almost guaranteed that because their scores were well below average

Um no..because they are getting the same grades in that lower quintile as white kids in that lower quintile. Despite the white kids coming in with better scores.
I dare say more white kids fail out of Harvard than black kids per year.
And if they graduate and get the degree?

You know what they call the worst student graduating from medical school?
Doctor.

Sorry dude but you are just reciting a racist meme to try and encourage black people to not be so uppity.

 

[jaeger19]

Yes, well discrimination was certainly worse in the 1970s than it is today. And yes, there's still some discrimination today, but it's not so bad that hardworking and capable black people are prevented from being highly successful.

Regarding unwed mothers, those stats come from the govt. If you have info suggesting that those stats are wrong, please provide links (as I did), rather than just making assertions.

I think you're well-intentioned, but you don't have an accurate picture of the 'race' situation.

By the way, 'race' is not really a valid concept biologically, since genetic variation among people ranges over a continuous spectrum, and there is actually more genetic variability within sub-Saharan Africa than in the rest of the world combined. In other words, there are no distinct 'races' with sharp boundaries.

Yes discrimination continues to make it harder and prevent African Americans from being successful..no matter how hard they work.
Yes. The stats on unwed mother comes from the government. The cdc in fact. And yep..70% of black children are born to out of wedlock mothers.
The problem is the interpretation by racists to believe that there has been an explosion
of unwed children being born and single mothers.
And that's not true. That statistic is the results of married black women having fewer children and more couples choosing to not get married.
Not some " poor choices" bs.


As far as your " but race isn't really" bs?
When a real estate agent purposely avoids showing a black couple homes in predominetly white neighborhoods..
She is doing it because they look black...not because she has analyzed their DNA samples...lol.
Come now.

 

[jaeger19]

you just don't get the obvious point. at schools such as Stanford or Columbia Law school, whites with lower scores DO NOT GET IN

So what..? Yes..they don't get in.
But even those with higher scores getting in..
Still end up in that bottomed quintile!!!!
There is still a bottom quintile..even if Harvard doesn't admit ANY black people you ridiculous dude.

 

[LessBiased?]

Yes discrimination continues to make it harder and prevent African Americans from being successful..no matter how hard they work.
Yes. The stats on unwed mother comes from the government. The cdc in fact. And yep..70% of black children are born to out of wedlock mothers.
The problem is the interpretation by racists to believe that there has been an explosion
of unwed children being born and single mothers.
And that's not true. That statistic is the results of married black women having fewer children and more couples choosing to not get married.
Not some " poor choices" bs.


As far as your " but race isn't really" bs?
When a real estate agent purposely avoids showing a black couple homes in predominetly white neighborhoods..
She is doing it because they look black...not because she has analyzed their DNA samples...lol.
Come now.

I came into this thread not having read the thread, and expecting pro-AA people to argue well in favor of AA, maybe point some things out I never thought of. Instead, you've done the opposite, by misinterpreting stats and making weak arguments. You also totally missed my point about 'race'.

Honestly, if you support AA, I encourage you to not attempt to be a spokesman for it, because you're not doing a good job.

 

[LessBiased?]

So what..? Yes..they don't get in.
But even those with higher scores getting in..
Still end up in that bottomed quintile!!!!
There is still a bottom quintile..even if Harvard doesn't admit ANY black people you ridiculous dude.

You just don't get it. If black people who were admitted don't perform as well as whites who were admitted, by a large margin, it's obvious that the bar was lowered to accept black people, and it shouldn't have been.

Again, it's not about getting into the school or getting the job. Someone has to have the capability of doing schoolwork and the job at a level comparable to their peers. If they don't have that capability, they should go to a school or take a job they're actually qualified for.

 

[jaeger19]

I came into this thread not having read the thread, and expecting pro-AA people to argue well in favor of AA, maybe point some things out I never thought of. Instead, you've done the opposite, by misinterpreting stats and making weak arguments. You also totally missed my point about 'race'.

Honestly, if you support AA, I encourage you to not attempt to be a spokesman for it, because you're not doing a good job.

Yeah nice try.
You went in thinking you were going to be able to do the whole..but but it's poor choices bs.
But you have not been able to offer any cogent rebuttal of the points I have made.
Because they are bolstered by history..facts and logic.
I guarantee you never once thought about how the 70% statistic came about..
But simply accepted that it must be due to poor choices and not because..married black women are having less children and more couples are choosing not to get married.
I didn't miss your point on race. I just dismissed it as the sad attempt at deflection that it is. Institutional racism is based on the color of one's skin defining race.. not on a genetic analysis. Lol

 

[jaeger19]

You just don't get it. If black people who were admitted don't perform as well as whites who were admitted, by a large margin, it's obvious that the bar was lowered to accept black people, and it shouldn't have been.

Again, it's not about getting into the school or getting the job. Someone has to have the capability of doing schoolwork and the job at a level comparable to their peers. If they don't have that capability, they should go to a school or take a job they're actually qualified for.

No..you don't get it.
It doesn't matter if the black students admitted with lower scores or not...
White students will be in the same quintile..the lower quintile..and no one goes.." but but they aren't able to compete with the top kids"
Yet those white students will still graduate and get degrees and benefit.

 

[LessBiased?]

Yeah nice try.
You went in thinking you were going to be able to do the whole..but but it's poor choices bs.
But you have not been able to offer any cogent rebuttal of the points I have made.
Because they are bolstered by history..facts and logic.
I guarantee you never once thought about how the 70% statistic came about..
But simply accepted that it must be due to poor choices and not because..married black women are having less children and more couples are choosing not to get married.
I didn't miss your point on race. I just dismissed it as the sad attempt at deflection that it is. Institutional racism is based on the color of one's skin defining race.. not on a genetic analysis. Lol

No one can rebut you if your ignore and misunderstand the stats, and refuse to provide sources for the stats you claim.

I'm not anti-AA, I'm generally pro-AA. But AA needs to be implemented properly, based on an accurate understanding of the situation and its causes, and the real effects of potential AA policies. You lack that understanding.

 

[LessBiased?]

No..you don't get it.
It doesn't matter if the black students admitted with lower scores or not...
White students will be in the same quintile..the lower quintile..and no one goes.." but but they aren't able to compete with the top kids"
Yet those white students will still graduate and get degrees and benefit.

But there are disproportionately more blacks than whites in the lower quintile!

Did you say you're a doctor? Docs need to be able to understand stats!

 

[jaeger19]

No one can rebut you if your ignore and misunderstand the stats, and refuse to provide sources for the stats you claim.

I'm not anti-AA, I'm generally pro-AA. But AA needs to be implemented properly, based on an accurate understanding of the situation and its causes, and the real effects of potential AA policies. You lack that understanding.

No..I didn't ignore the stats..I explained how those stats came about and that they don't mean what you assume they mean.
You are the one that lacks the understanding. You talk about aa...but you demonstrate you don't understand the problem of institutional racism and how it affects generational wealth and advancement.
You and your " poor choices"
I bet you don't even know what red lining is.
You mentuined.." we need to change the socioeconomic status"
Well how do you do that?
You can give a black student..who may be wonderfully capable of succeeding..but simply not scoring high on a standardized test designed and scored by white people..
A chance.. and while they might not be tops in the class..still graduate and be a role model and better earner for tge next generation..
Or artificially take tax payer dollars and give restitution to a lower middle class black family so they are now in upper middle class..regardless of effort.

AA simply opens the door..and people succeed or fail on their own.

 

[jaeger19]

But there are disproportionately more blacks than whites in the lower quintile!

Did you say you're a doctor? Docs need to be able to understand stats!

Disproportionate? Of course..there are disproportionately more white people period.
The point is..there are MORE white people in that lower quintile than black and yet no angst over them. They graduate and get degrees and no one gives a rats but that they were in the lowe quintile.
I obviously understand statistics far more than you.
I have been on admission committees for an elite university..
We waived scores for minorities and we followed their careers. Some of the were in the top of the class ..sime of them in the middle and some in the lower quintile.
Stratified JUST LIKE THE WHITE STUDENTS.. with a few elite..more in the middle and more in the lower quintile.
And the black students. still graduated..just like the white students.
Frankly..as already pointed out..after a minimum of score ..the difference of a points is a poor predictor of success.
On the sat..simply taking the test again can get you 100 more points. Just the experience alone.
So a black kid that takes the test once because they can't afford another test scores 900. And a white kid that scores 900 the first test and then takes the test again getting 1000 due to test experience?

They are not significantly different in ability.
Simply in finances.

 

[LessBiased?]

@jaeger19, we agree on the goal, but we don't agree on the understanding of the situation, the diagnosis, and the solution. I'll leave it at that.

 

[jaeger19]

@jaeger19, we agree on the goal, but we don't agree on the understanding of the situation, the diagnosis, and the solution. I'll leave it at that.

Do some actually research and we can discuss. I'll leave it at that.

 

[LessBiased?]

Do some actually research and we can discuss. I'll leave it at that.

I cited sources, you did not. Not my job to try to find sources to support your points!