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[W:1396] Questions that atheists are afraid to answer

Okay, but I just have one more question. I see you still refuse to answer why you want to replace the basic underpinning of religion - faith - with scientific knowledge. If you were to succeed, you would destroy religion in one swell foop, and the existence of God would simply become another provable fact.

On second thought, you're off the hook. Bye.

I'm not interested in religion, I am not discussing religion, I care not what implications you think may arise or any fear you may have of them, what I care about is what does an atheist do when evidence is shown to them, they take the evidence away to their little lab and do what with it?
 
What do you mean by "confirm itself"?

Quite simply, when you have 66 books by 40+ authors written over the course of approximately 1,600 years all found in a single collection and the ideas found in that collection (i.e. The Bible) all agree with each other (in proper context) then you are able to say that the Bible can "confirm itself".
 
@Sherlock Holmes - - Answer this, please.
Why would an atheist be "AFRAID TO ANSWER" any question at all?
Be specific: What would an atheist be "AFRAID OF?"

I speculate that some fear the vacuity of their position, they fear the possibility that their system, beliefs, opinions and view may be built on metaphorical sand; such realizations can lead to breakdowns, personal crises, some people truly fear that.

As far as I know, I don't live in a theocracy so there's no punishment or penalty for not believing.
If I lived in a theocracy I would indeed be afraid, because there might be a hefty fine or even prison time for not believing.
But this is the USA and there's no such religious laws, so I'd like to know what I am supposed to be afraid of.

People fear the unknown, if the universe, reality, "the world" does not work as one thought it did then the unknown must be faced, this is a real cause of fear and anxiety for many, you should not think you are immune to such feelings.
 
Our reasons have nothing to do with fear but with a healthy skepticism about the questioner and his reasons.

And I know there are no gods, nothing on this earth show any evidence of a divine super being that created our planet/universe and humanity/earth.

1. question 1 is not really answerable, how would you evaluate the existence of god based on "evidence"? What I view as no evidence you will most likely think is evidence if you are a believer. God is in the eye of the beholder, if you are a believer all things point to evidence, if you are an atheist like me nothing points to any existence of evidence. That is not waffling, that just happens if an impossible question is asked.

2. see answer 1, there is no evidence of god so how should I evaluate that?

3. Another impossible to answer question, not because I do not want to but because it is impossible to do so.

4. your "evidence" is based faith, that is not evidence, that is religion. You believe god created the earth hence it is true for you. That is not evidence, that is faith. You cannot prove to an atheist something that is intangible for me, I do not have your faith or belief, hence your evidence is bogus to me as it is a personal view purely based on faith.

5. Because there is no evidence, I cannot evaluate evidence for god because that is based on the notio.n of religious people that gods exist

6. depends what you think is evidence, if it is faith based I am going to reject it by saying that you see this as evidence because you believe. If you try and claim scientific evidence well then probably I will reject it based on facts. If you try to claim the world flooded as the bible writes then I will reject that for lack (total lack) of any believable source, it is faith based belief, not evidence based facts/evidence.

If asking for evidence leads nowhere, why ask in the first place? if you don't ask then it doesn't matter to you and on opinion that does not depend on evidence is a belief, so atheists do have beliefs.
 
What it seems few if any have grasped in this thread is the following, this is the key to the thread IMHO, to understanding what is being discussed and why.

Consider two people Jane and John, they are both shown "evidence" for God by someone, you are truly open minded, have not examined the evidence yourself and have no view as to God existing or not.

Jane comes back and says - "You know, I find that compelling, it is evidence for God in my opinion now that I've examined the matter".

John comes back and says - "OK I looked at this very carefully, and I'm afraid it isn't evidence for God at all".

Now, you the neutral party, are faced with a dilemma - who do you believe?

Everything, EVERYTHING comes down to the process each person followed, change the process and you change the outcome, the same evidence but subject to different processes leads to different outcomes.

The process is therefore absolutely central to the question of deciding God's existence, we choose our process and we get our outcome, but some of us choose our outcome and then select the necessary process.

What is the "correct" process? how do we select a process?

Every process is based one one or more unprovable assumptions, axioms, so the choice of process is a choice that follows from one's choice of initial beliefs.

This is all this thread was discussing, yet few seem to have understood, most atheists do not understand, they do not understand that their views are a choice, they are not absolute truth.
 
1. What is your process for evaluating evidence for God?
I use the same process as everything else: An evaluation of empirical evidence. In addition, it must be internally consistent, as well as consistent with (or at least plausibly compatible with) everything else we know based on empirical standards.


2. Do you even have a process for evaluating such evidence?
lol... Of course. Examine the evidence. Determine if it is empirical or fantastical. If it is empirical, then look at the quality of the evidence.

In addition, we can easily run checks for internal consistency (which, for example, a concept like "omnipotence" fails) as well as consistency with what we already know (e.g. the concept of a "soul" violates numerous conservation laws of physics).


3. Are you willing to tell me, to describe this process?
lol... I just did. This thread also shows many people willing to do so.


5. How can you claim you've never seen evidence for God when you do not have any way to evaluate evidence for God?
lol

Well, I do have a way to evaluate it.

In addition, the onus is not on me to prove a negative, it is on you to prove your case. The obvious rejoinder here is best articulated by Bertrand Russel:

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes.

But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.

If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.


Moreover, your evidence sucks. You have a handful of people, around 2000 years ago, who wrote up and distributed stories that were transmitted orally for a few decades, and were heavily biased by their own agenda. Further, they were making fantastical claims that were routine in that day and age.

Yes, that's right, talk of miracle workers was downright common at that time. In fact, Apollonius of Tyana was a contemporary of Jesus who was a wandering philosopher and miracle-worker, who defied the Roman Emperor Domitian, was executed for his defiance, and was said to have ascended to heaven upon his death. Why be a Christian instead of an Appolonian?

Similarly, and as already pointed out in this thread, ultimately there is no justification to believe in the New Testament rather than the Lotus Sutra, or Koran, or the Upanishads, or any other claims based not on fact but on faith.


6 . Can you reassure me that you don't intend to reject anything and everything that I might show to you as evidence?
No, because this is not my first rodeo. I've had people present "evidence" for a long time, and none of it has passed muster.

I also have to add that prominent atheists, notably the "usual suspects" (Dennett, Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris) most certainly provided their answers to these questions.


What does it reveal to us when the atheist refuses to answer these? what can we infer from their stubborn refusals?
lol

What can we infer from your refusal to actually listen to what atheists and materialists say?
 
What it seems few if any have grasped in this thread is the following, this is the key to the thread IMHO, to understanding what is being discussed and why.

Consider two people Jane and John, they are both shown "evidence" for God by someone, you are truly open minded, have not examined the evidence yourself and have no view as to God existing or not.

Jane comes back and says - "You know, I find that compelling, it is evidence for God in my opinion now that I've examined the matter".

John comes back and says - "OK I looked at this very carefully, and I'm afraid it isn't evidence for God at all".

Now, you the neutral party, are faced with a dilemma - who do you believe?

Everything, EVERYTHING comes down to the process each person followed, change the process and you change the outcome, the same evidence but subject to different processes leads to different outcomes.

The process is therefore absolutely central to the question of deciding God's existence, we choose our process and we get our outcome, but some of us choose our outcome and then select the necessary process.

What is the "correct" process? how do we select a process?

Every process is based one one or more unprovable assumptions, axioms, so the choice of process is a choice that follows from one's choice of initial beliefs.

This is all this thread was discussing, yet few seem to have understood, most atheists do not understand, they do not understand that their views are a choice, they are not absolute truth.
If only you would understand and follow what you just typed.
 
I'm not interested in religion, I am not discussing religion, I care not what implications you think may arise or any fear you may have of them, what I care about is what does an atheist do when evidence is shown to them, they take the evidence away to their little lab and do what with it?

Then can I assume your belief in God is NOT faith-based?
 
Jane comes back and says - "You know, I find that compelling, it is evidence for God in my opinion now that I've examined the matter".

John comes back and says - "OK I looked at this very carefully, and I'm afraid it isn't evidence for God at all".

Now, you the neutral party, are faced with a dilemma - who do you believe?
lol

First, I have not personally evaluated the evidence. As a result, there is not possible way for me to judge the quality of the evidence, since all I know is that it persuaded one person and not the other.

Second, all we have to do is change the scenario to reveal your own biases. To wit:

• Jane and John are presented X, which is evidence for evolution.
• Jane says "X is valid evidence for evolution."
• John says "X is not valid evidence for evolution."

Based on your previous posts, it's pretty obvious to me which one of the two you will believe....


Every process is based one one or more unprovable assumptions, axioms, so the choice of process is a choice that follows from one's choice of initial beliefs.
lol

Well, the actions based on my axioms have resulted in producing cures for cancer, sending human beings to the moon, and the computer upon which you are typing your screed.

The actions based on your axioms have produced... uhm... cathedrals? Which, y'know, are quite impressive. But they only stand because of the laws of physics, not the will of God. Sounds like a point for my side.
 
I use the same process as everything else: An evaluation of empirical evidence. In addition, it must be internally consistent, as well as consistent with (or at least plausibly compatible with) everything else we know based on empirical standards.

So what attributes, characteristics would it take in this empirical evidence for you to decide it is evidence for God?

Imagine you are studying it, spending time exploring it, what would cause you to step back and say "By Jove, this actually could be evidence for God!".

Or alternatively is your view that empirical evidence can never serve as evidence for God? if so then you'll agree empirical evidence can always be dismissed, no need to even look at it.

lol... Of course. Examine the evidence. Determine if it is empirical or fantastical. If it is empirical, then look at the quality of the evidence.

In addition, we can easily run checks for internal consistency (which, for example, a concept like "omnipotence" fails) as well as consistency with what we already know (e.g. the concept of a "soul" violates numerous conservation laws of physics).

But the conservation "laws" of physics are axioms, assumptions, one is always at liberty to adopt or discard assumptions if one chooses, how do you avoid the risk that an axiom might in fact be untrue and cause you to misinterpret evidence?

Well, I do have a way to evaluate it.

In addition, the onus is not on me to prove a negative, it is on you to prove your case. The obvious rejoinder here is best articulated by Bertrand Russel:

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes.

But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.

If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Yes I'm familiar with Russel's Teapot.

Russell once debated the existence of God with the Jesuit Philosopher Frederick Copleston, in that discussion (if I recall) the teapot is mentioned or something akin to it, you might be interested to hear Copleston's responses.

 
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Moreover, your evidence sucks. You have a handful of people, around 2000 years ago, who wrote up and distributed stories that were transmitted orally for a few decades, and were heavily biased by their own agenda. Further, they were making fantastical claims that were routine in that day and age.

Well firstly I have not presented you with any evidence so your assessment is rather odd, secondly I don't see how you can prove that the Bible is not evidence for God, even if everything you say about it were true I do not see how we can say "and therefore this simply cannot be evidence for God".

Yes, that's right, talk of miracle workers was downright common at that time. In fact, Apollonius of Tyana was a contemporary of Jesus who was a wandering philosopher and miracle-worker, who defied the Roman Emperor Domitian, was executed for his defiance, and was said to have ascended to heaven upon his death. Why be a Christian instead of an Appolonian?

Similarly, and as already pointed out in this thread, ultimately there is no justification to believe in the New Testament rather than the Lotus Sutra, or Koran, or the Upanishads, or any other claims based not on fact but on faith.

Well this is altogether a very different matter, I have not presented you with evidence so this is a strawman, furthermore I don't see at all how you can elevate your personal opinion that the NT offers no justification for belief, to the status of an absolute truth.

No, because this is not my first rodeo. I've had people present "evidence" for a long time, and none of it has passed muster.

How do you know that the process you applied to it is not wrong in some way?

I also have to add that prominent atheists, notably the "usual suspects" (Dennett, Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris) most certainly provided their answers to these questions.

That may be true, Hitchens is on record for saying some rather silly things though.

What can we infer from your refusal to actually listen to what atheists and materialists say?

You could infer that it's old news to me, that I used to be a philosophical materialist, a reductionist, I was a student of theoretical physics and an outspoken atheist, for me too this is not my first rodeo.
 
Quite simply, when you have 66 books by 40+ authors written over the course of approximately 1,600 years all found in a single collection and the ideas found in that collection (i.e. The Bible) all agree with each other (in proper context) then you are able to say that the Bible can "confirm itself".
Do you not see the contradiction in the bold?
 
lol

First, I have not personally evaluated the evidence. As a result, there is not possible way for me to judge the quality of the evidence, since all I know is that it persuaded one person and not the other.

Second, all we have to do is change the scenario to reveal your own biases. To wit:

• Jane and John are presented X, which is evidence for evolution.
• Jane says "X is valid evidence for evolution."
• John says "X is not valid evidence for evolution."

Based on your previous posts, it's pretty obvious to me which one of the two you will believe....

That's a tad inaccurate, in the case of me and evolution I use the same process you claim to use, empiricism and I am in the role of John here, I did examine the evidence myself.

Well, the actions based on my axioms have resulted in producing cures for cancer, sending human beings to the moon, and the computer upon which you are typing your screed.

The actions based on your axioms have produced... uhm... cathedrals? Which, y'know, are quite impressive. But they only stand because of the laws of physics, not the will of God. Sounds like a point for my side.

Even if this simplistic summary were true, I do not see how it has any bearing on how we evaluate a claim for being evidence of God.
 
I see, like so many here you have no intention of trying to answer the questions in the OP, you'd rather ignore them and ask me questions instead, that's called: hijacking the thread.
Ok, your OP has no relevancy to anyone other than yourself/
 
Ok, your OP has no relevancy to anyone other than yourself/
Its relevant to a subset of theists and atheists who are driven by a need to continue this 'debate' ad nauseum like two male elk with interlocked horns , as they push and twist for advantage for hour after hour. Meanwhile the rest of us elk are busy boinking the females in heat, they are fighting for.
 
Its relevant to a subset of theists and atheists who are driven by a need to continue this 'debate' ad nauseum like two male elk with interlocked horns , as they push and twist for advantage for hour after hour. Meanwhile the rest of us elk are busy boinking the females in heat, they are fighting for.

Perhaps a forum such as this is not the best use of your time then.
 
Quite simply, when you have 66 books by 40+ authors written over the course of approximately 1,600 years all found in a single collection and the ideas found in that collection (i.e. The Bible) all agree with each other (in proper context) then you are able to say that the Bible can "confirm itself".

Not really. It’s still all the writings of fairly primitive humans, and the “collection” contains a huge amount of outright myth and superstition. Practically all of Genesis, for instance, is pure myth.
 
Newton was a racist incel and a bigot,


Voltaire was not a Christian and many consider him to be a deist.

Einsteian was also not a Chritian but a deist.
That's my point. Atheism isn't about anti-Christianity, It's about denying the existance of God. I quoted three highly intelligent people who believe in the existance of God.
 
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