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[W:132]Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border...

Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

The same thing could be said for nearly every spending and taxation legislation, say, ObamaCare for example.

No, that is not correct.

We all need Health Care, we don't all need a wall.

We are far behind most every other big nations on health care and the only way it can be done is by everyone in the U.S. participating. There is no other way. Obamacare needed/needs to be tweaked but the premise is the right one given that at some point in our lives we will all need it. As such, having everyone participate (even the healthy people) was and is a good idea.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

Okay.
Walls keep things apart.
Your turn to explain why they never have.

I know it's the Christmas season; however, your "gift" of a straw man for me to defend isn't one I will accept.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

I know it's the Christmas season; however, your "gift" of a straw man for me to defend isn't one I will accept.

Like I said no one has explained why a Wall wouldn't work.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

If someone says something counter to the demanded political narrative, they know nothing.
If someone says something in support of the demanded political narrative, they are undisputed experts in their field.

:roll:

Oh so typical, now a days.

The former ICE chief can spout statistics and offer up decades of experience all day long, and the Left thinks he doesn't know what he's talking about. But somehow, uber-wealthy political hacks who live in gated communities know what the boots on the ground don't.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

Like I said no one has explained why a Wall wouldn't work.

No one has explained why it will work. The will work crew is the crew that wants to spend upwards of $25B for it. The onus is on them to explain why it will work.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

Trumps Wall is about trying to do what he told us that he would try to do.

Trump, one of the last honest guys around.

He also said he'd pass a healthcare plan "better and cheaper" than the ACA. Instead he tried to pass a plan that did the opposite. He's bringing up the wall again because it fires up his knuckle-dragging base.

You fancy yourself as such a free thinker but you're simply just part of trump's ignorant "group-think".

He's not honest. He's the most harmful, dishonest person ever elected to a person of power in the United States since Hoover. The fact you repeatedly claim otherwise proves you are either incredibly ignorant or dishonest as well.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

Trump has as President been nearly exactly the guy he advertised himself to be, and what he has been interested in has been nearly exactly what he said that he would be interested in.

That is now rare in America, and is refreshing, usually with politicians now we get a song and a dance at Election time and in the SOTU but the words mean nothing, because it is lies.

The sad thing is you're local. We have some similar interests. I was thinking of reaching out to you as a friend. How you choose to spend your time - misleading people as you do - deeply saddens and disgusts me.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

No, that is not correct.

We all need Health Care, we don't all need a wall.

A sovereign nation needs to have secure borders. A wall would improve border security, and this has been shown in history and in present day real life instances.

We are far behind most every other big nations on health care and the only way it can be done is by everyone in the U.S. participating. There is no other way. Obamacare needed/needs to be tweaked but the premise is the right one given that at some point in our lives we will all need it. As such, having everyone participate (even the healthy people) was and is a good idea.

When it comes to health care there is universality, quality and affordability.

You can set any two, but the third will be a variable dependent on the other two, and will move.

So, you can have universality that's affordable, but it'll suck (bad quality).

You can have quality and affordability, but not universality.

You can have universality and quality, but you'll go broke (bad affordability).

From what I have heard, when all factors are taken into account, the US spends about as much as most other Western nations, and yet, still delivers high quality.

How about we work so that everyone has a high paying job, with highly valued contribution, and receive medical benefits from the employer? Seems that with the job market going up, that's exactly the direction we are lucky enough to be going.

I believe that everyone should be as independent of the government as is possible and is practical, to be able to take care of themselves and make decisions for themselves as much as possible and is practical, as government hasn't established a track record that it can be trusted, especially not with your life nor your freedom nor you liberty.

You want to **** something up really badly? Let the government manage it. It'll be so ****ed up so quickly, it'll take massive tax payer bail outs to rescue it, and the government controlling political elite have no problem voting to confiscate your hard earned money (and always have a better deal for themselves).
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

The former ICE chief can spout statistics and offer up decades of experience all day long, and the Left thinks he doesn't know what he's talking about. But somehow, uber-wealthy political hacks who live in gated communities know what the boots on the ground don't.

Such is what they believe is an honest discussion. :roll:
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

Like I said no one has explained why a Wall wouldn't work.

The burden of proof is on wall advocates to prove why it will work, and as I noted in the OP, not one of them has presented a methodologically sound/cogent case showing that it will (augurs to do so).
 
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Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

No one has explained why it will work. The will work crew is the crew that wants to spend upwards of $25B for it. The onus is on them to explain why it will work.


WALL - noun
any of various permanent upright constructions having a length much greater than the thickness and presenting a continuous surface except where pierced by doors, windows, etc.: used for shelter, protection, or privacy, or to subdivide interior space, to support floors, roofs, or the like, to retain earth, to fence in an area, etc.
Usually walls. a rampart raised for defensive purposes.

That's okay. I understand why you're at a loss to explain when walls stopped working.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

The burden of proof is on wall advocates to prove why it will work, and as I noted in the OP, not one of them has presented a methodologically sound/cogent case showing that it will (augurs to do so).

Well the advocates always have the definition of a wall (#186) to support their argument.

The deniers always seem to only have "Cuz I said so."

That's okay. I understand why you're at a loss to explain when walls stopped working. (also #186)
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

WALL - noun
any of various permanent upright constructions having a length much greater than the thickness and presenting a continuous surface except where pierced by doors, windows, etc.: used for shelter, protection, or privacy, or to subdivide interior space, to support floors, roofs, or the like, to retain earth, to fence in an area, etc.
Usually walls. a rampart raised for defensive purposes.

That's okay. I understand why you're at a loss to explain when walls stopped working.

Defining what a wall is does not explain why it will work in the context of a taxpayer funded physical barrier expanded over an additional 1,100 miles of Southern border. But I am not surprised that you would somehow find the definition of a wall sufficient as an explanation for its use in this specific application. That is about the most obvious evasion of the specific question asked in this thread I have seen in a long time. Thanks for confirming that you don't actually have an answer.

Reminds me of Neilson in her most recent appearance before Congress. Asked what she needed, she simply replied "we need Wall, Wall...we need Wall". What is she 5 years old?
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

Well the advocates always have the definition of a wall (#186) to support their argument.

The deniers always seem to only have "Cuz I said so."

That's okay. I understand why you're at a loss to explain when walls stopped working. (also #186)


  1. Please stop asking me puerily loaded/entrapping questions.
    • I'm not going to answer them.
    • My thread thesis has nothing to do with whether walls "work," don't, or when they started or stopped "working."
  2. Click here and read the three bulleted essays to which I linked.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

It's been thousands and thousands of years since man worked out how to frustrate a wall.

You'd have to monitor the wall just the same and that monitoring would have to be vastly ramped up from what we have now. The cost would be astronomical to provide enough manpower to stop this: infrastructure, supply chains, huge amounts of always on-duty manpower, including people to monitor the required monitoring tech. That's one small part of the reason that the wall is an idiotic ideal used to whip up the rabble.






Not that the wall has ever been the topic of serious conversation.....

Why would you need more manpower to monitor a greatly more substantial wall than you need to monitor what we have now? Using that logic, having no barrier at will require the least manpower of all. I'll say it again. The left doesn't oppose the wall because of cost. They oppose it because they know it will work.

Turn off speech-to-text the next time you bring the laptop into the bathroom.




In other words, that reeking **** only flies when your preaching to a dishonest choir.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

T
Trumps Wall is about trying to do what he told us that he would try to do.

Trump, one of the last honest guys around.

Correct. Thanks for opening my eyes. I now plan to transfer my son to Trump University and change my will to leave money to the Trump Foundation.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

It's been thousands and thousands of years since man worked out how to frustrate a wall.

You'd have to monitor the wall just the same and that monitoring would have to be vastly ramped up from what we have now. The cost would be astronomical to provide enough manpower to stop this: infrastructure, supply chains, huge amounts of always on-duty manpower, including people to monitor the required monitoring tech. That's one small part of the reason that the wall is an idiotic ideal used to whip up the rabble.

Not that the wall has ever been the topic of serious conversation.....

FWIW, from the Senate Cmte. on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs:
In that report, one sees:
  • Border Patrol agents and sector chiefs rarely requested a "wall."
    Less than one-half of 1% of the solutions Border Patrol agents and sector chiefs proposed foreclosing capability gaps along the southwest border in FY 2017 referenced a "wall." The Border Patrol identified a total of 902 southwest border capability gaps through its FY 2017 CGAP process. The word "wall" was suggested as a possible solution for just three of those gaps.
  • Border Patrol agents and sector chiefs infrequently requested fencing.
    Border Patrol agents referenced "fence" or “fencing” as a possible solution to just 34, or less than 4%, of the 902 capability gaps identified.
  • The Border Patrol classified just one in four vulnerabilities as ones that could be addressed using man-made infrastructure of any type.
    Of the 902 capability gaps agents and sector chiefs identified along the southwest border in FY 2017, just 230 received a "Deterrence, Impedance, and Resolution" designation. Another 672 gaps were classified under other "master capabilities," such as "Domain Awareness" or "Mission Readiness" – two categories of vulnerabilities that typically indicate a need for technological and personnel approaches to securing the border.
Additionally, despite the following attestations....
  • John Kelly, Former DHSSecy. Kelly, Jan. 10, 2017 --> A "physical barrier in and of itself will not do the job...."If you are to build a wall from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico, you’d still have to back that wall up with patrolling by human beings, by sensors, by observation devices."
  • DHS Secy. Nielsen, Nov. 8, 2017 --> "It is a combination of both personnel and technology. We also have to remember that technology can always serve also as a force multiplier if implemented and executed correctly."
...the WH recommended cuts to DHS technology funding request and sought in its place funding to pay for the border wall.

  • OMB instructed DHS to seek $1.6B -- $700M more than DHS’ original budget request -– for border wall construction in the Rio Grande Valley of TX.
  • OMB instructed DHS to decrease its funding request for specific border security technology and monitoring equipment by approximately $175M.
  • Despite its assertion that "surveillance in the [Rio Grande Valley] Sector is a continued priority," OMB instructed DHS to request only $43.7M for remote video surveillance systems -– a $44.6 million reduction to DHS' original request, constituting a cut of over 50%. OMB acknowledged that reductions to RVSS technology are necessary "to offset the costs of Presidential priorities not funded in the DHS request," i.e., wall funding, which DHS didn't request.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

T

Correct. Thanks for opening my eyes. I now plan to transfer my son to Trump University and change my will to leave money to the Trump Foundation.

You should let your kids run their own lives by the time they get to University age.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

The sad thing is you're local. We have some similar interests. I was thinking of reaching out to you as a friend. How you choose to spend your time - misleading people as you do - deeply saddens and disgusts me.

He's somewhat right. Trump did pretty much advertise himself this way. His disgusting remarks about 'I like soldiers that dont get captured,' his physically mocking the disabled reporter, his very honest statement about grabbing *****, his adultery, etc etc etc.

Many Americans saw this...Trump didnt try to hide it. And those many Americans ACCEPTED that low-brow behavior. That is the incredibly low bar for behavior many Americans view as acceptable as the national face of our country. This is a very sad truth that we really cant deny.

How we are producing such a population with those basement-level expectations is a question that really needs to be answered.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

A sovereign nation needs to have secure borders. A wall would improve border security, and this has been shown in history and in present day real life instances.

Ever heard of the word "overdoing it". Show me one single nation in the world that has a desirable living style that has secure borders. There is none!. This is a problem that will continue and continue to get worse as the world grows and more and more people suffer. As such, a wall will not do much as people will find other ways to get in...........by boat, by air, through Canada, with ladders, underground tunnels, etc, etc, etc.

The money for a wall can be used for other things that will bring more benefits to our people. Building the wall will bring more debt and that means that it will need to be paid, suggesting that some of our existing programs (such as Social Security and Medicare) will suffer. Do you honestly believe that the benefits that keeping a few more people from entering the United States would be worth taking money out of the pockets of our people that need it?



When it comes to health care there is universality, quality and affordability.

You can set any two, but the third will be a variable dependent on the other two, and will move.

So, you can have universality that's affordable, but it'll suck (bad quality).

You can have quality and affordability, but not universality.

You can have universality and quality, but you'll go broke (bad affordability).

From what I have heard, when all factors are taken into account, the US spends about as much as most other Western nations, and yet, still delivers high quality.

How about we work so that everyone has a high paying job, with highly valued contribution, and receive medical benefits from the employer? Seems that with the job market going up, that's exactly the direction we are lucky enough to be going.

I believe that everyone should be as independent of the government as is possible and is practical, to be able to take care of themselves and make decisions for themselves as much as possible and is practical, as government hasn't established a track record that it can be trusted, especially not with your life nor your freedom nor you liberty.

You want to **** something up really badly? Let the government manage it. It'll be so ****ed up so quickly, it'll take massive tax payer bail outs to rescue it, and the government controlling political elite have no problem voting to confiscate your hard earned money (and always have a better deal for themselves).

Nonetheless, Health Care should be for all, not only for those with money or the ones that are healthy. Yes, all of us have to sacrifice some to make it happen but it can be done right and well.

What benefit is the to having good doctors and health care if a large amount of the population cannot take advantage of it?
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

Ever heard of the word "overdoing it". Show me one single nation in the world that has a desirable living style that has secure borders. There is none!.

Off the top of my head, Israel. There are a number of other borders with barriers.

Countries With Border Walls

?Country ACountry BStatusLength (km)
IndiaBangladeshUnder construction3,268
PakistanAfghanistanProposed2,400
UkraineRussiaUnder construction2,000
TurkmenistanUzbekistanCompleted 20011,700
IndiaBurmaUnder construction1,624
ChinaNorth KoreaUnder construction1,416
MexicoUnited StatesProposed930
Saudi ArabiaIraqCompleted 2014900
UzbekistanKyrgyzstanCompleted 1999870
IranPakistanUnder construction700
Costa RicaNicaraguaProposed650
MalaysiaThailandProposed650
IndiaPakistanCompleted 2004550
BotswanaZimbabweCompleted 2003500
United Arab EmiratesOmanUnder construction410
SloveniaCroatiaUnder construction400
BelizeGuatemalaProposed266
North KoreaSouth KoreaCompleted 1953248
South AfricaZimbabweCompleted 2000s225
UzbekistanAfghanistanCompleted 2001209
KuwaitIraqCompleted 1991193
HungarySerbiaCompleted 2015175
South AfricaMozambiqueCompleted 1975120
(and many more)

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-border-walls.html

Scanning through this list, there are a number of first world nations and even more second world nations who have good standards of living, so I conclude you are talking out of your ass on this one.

This is a problem that will continue and continue to get worse as the world grows and more and more people suffer. As such, a wall will not do much as people will find other ways to get in...........by boat, by air, through Canada, with ladders, underground tunnels, etc, etc, etc.

So an open border is a solution? :lamo

The money for a wall can be used for other things that will bring more benefits to our people. Building the wall will bring more debt and that means that it will need to be paid, suggesting that some of our existing programs (such as Social Security and Medicare) will suffer. Do you honestly believe that the benefits that keeping a few more people from entering the United States would be worth taking money out of the pockets of our people that need it?

You first, before expecting everyone else to contribute to your folly of a solution. Guess what. the US can't accept all the people across the planet who want to reside here, and that's exactly what you are proposing as a solution. So again, talking out of your ass.

Nonetheless, Health Care should be for all, not only for those with money or the ones that are healthy. Yes, all of us have to sacrifice some to make it happen but it can be done right and well.

What benefit is the to having good doctors and health care if a large amount of the population cannot take advantage of it?

If you are really that much of a socialistic medicine supporter, and if its that important to you, I propose that you move to a place that has it, rather than to inflict it on those who don't want it.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

While it appears some of those countries listed in post #196 actually have Proposals for physical barrier, something we do not as yet have from our Administration, none of those countries are the United States. Therefore whatever they are proposing is not relevant to us and our situation either as it relates to Immigration legal or otherwise, asylum, defensive or otherwise, US Border Security as opposed to other Border Security, adherence to the principles that make America America or anything else for that matter.

Nothing will be relevant in this issue until this Administration presents a Proposal to the Congress of the United States for review. Frankly, I have never favored Lets Make a Deal Legislation which is what was tried in the various Wall/Immigration Policy/DACA Bills that were introduced earlier this year. They are almost always an effort to override any sort of process and that is usually because Bill proponents don't know how to engage in a process or are afraid of what a process will expose about their intentions or lack of validity. In fact, I am fairly certain that the Dems would not have participated in that fiasco of government had it not been for DACA recipients hoping that their limbo status would finally be resolved in one of those Bills.

While that entire process was instigated by Trump, the Bill he did not favor received the most support on both sides of the aisle and the only Bill he desired received the least support from both sides of the aisle. Says a good deal for the actual popularity of Trumpian politics. The Trump base does not represent the country as a whole though it dearly clings to the fantasy that it does.
 
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Trump has been repining about his wall for, what, three years now. Why? Because it's politically expedient for him to do so, for among his benighted base, it's galvanizing and because for him it's a matter of ego, looking tough. He said he'd build a beautiful wall; laughable as it was, he referenced his experience in real estate as a basis for his knowing how to build a wall; he said Mexico would pay for his wall; and he led stadium-sized throngs of nitwits (they lacked the sense to know it wasn't doable "from jump") in "build the wall" and "Mexico's going to pay for it" chants.

A good idea, whatever someone's motive is for supporting it, is still a good idea. And it remains a good idea, no matter how incompetent Trump has been in horse trading and leadership. And if Democrats hadn't thought he was serious about it they would have set aside funds (as he requested) for the wall and see what happened.

They know, you know, and all of us know that Trump will build a wall if the money is set aside - something horrifying to business/RINO Republicans and the Democratic vision of America as a welcome mat for as many potential Democrats as possible.

By the way, recall that Trump offered to legalize up to 1.8 million but ONLY in return for a full set aside of the funds - something that Schumer could not live with. He wanted to game it as border fencing had been previously, put the money in a budget but don't necessarily authorize the expenditure.

And yes, illegal immigration is a crisis, and it has been so since 1970. In 1965 illegal immigration amounted to a few 10s of thousands at most. It grew into the hundreds of thousands in the 70s and then more under Reagan and Clinton. By 2000-2007 under Bush it was a mega-crisis peaking at 1.7 million a year appended. After the great recession it plunged, and then dipped again when Trump took office. However, the "Trump effect" is gone and from FY 2017 to FY2018 it jumped 33% at the SW border, 410,000 to 521,000.

Be reminded:

"[T]he undocumented Mexican population in 1980 was in the 1-2 million range, with the total number from all countries falling in the range of 2-4 million... Of the undocumented present and counted in 1980, 941,000 entered during 1975-1980 (about 233,000 a year); 576,000 entered during 1970-1974 (about 133,000 a year); and 540,000 entered before 1970... Finally, the estimates for 1980 show a high proportion of recent arrivals, and very few who entered the United States prior to 1960."

By 1993 (after the benighted Reagan amnesty deal legalized several million illegals) the number of new illegals totaled 3.4 Million. And by
by 2000 there were 8.5 million illegals, then:

In Jan. 2007 - US Department of Homeland Security Estimates 11.8 Million Unauthorized Immigrants in US with 59% from Mexico
"[A]n estimated 11.8 million unauthorized immigrants were living in the United States in January 2007 compared to 8.5 million in 2000. Between 2000 and 2007, the unauthorized population increased 3.3 million; the annual average increase during this period was 470,000.

https://immigration.procon.org/view.timeline.php?timelineID=000023#1950-1999

Even with the great recession exit of illegals, the number of new illegals kept pace such that the current estimate of illegals is still 11.4 million. And in the last year apprehensions on the south-west border is on the rise again, increasing from 415,000 to 521,000 from FY 2017 to FY 2018.

There is NO indication that this is going to solve itself, even if you don't consider recent evidence that illegal population is far higher than census estimates (perhaps up to 22 million).

It's long overdue; if you want a border that is controlled and fewer illegals you use the lessons of successful security zones: walls, double or triple fences, drones, patrol roads, and active surveillance. You do what is necessary to return America to a border infiltration rate as it was in the early 1960s, not as it exploded into the 70s to the present.

Period.
 
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Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

Defining what a wall is does not explain why it will work in the context of a taxpayer funded physical barrier expanded over an additional 1,100 miles of Southern border. But I am not surprised that you would somehow find the definition of a wall sufficient as an explanation for its use in this specific application. That is about the most obvious evasion of the specific question asked in this thread I have seen in a long time. Thanks for confirming that you don't actually have an answer.

Reminds me of Neilson in her most recent appearance before Congress. Asked what she needed, she simply replied "we need Wall, Wall...we need Wall". What is she 5 years old?

  1. Please stop asking me puerily loaded/entrapping questions.
    • I'm not going to answer them.
    • My thread thesis has nothing to do with whether walls "work," don't, or when they started or stopped "working."
  2. Click here and read the three bulleted essays to which I linked.

Which part of that definition of "WALL" did you find lacking for the application under consideration?
Either of you can answer.
 
Re: Trump's wall is about ego and having a politically efficacious talking point, not border securit

  1. Please stop asking me puerily loaded/entrapping questions.
    • I'm not going to answer them.
    • My thread thesis has nothing to do with whether walls "work," don't, or when they started or stopped "working."
  2. Click here and read the three bulleted essays to which I linked.

You feel entrapped by questions you can't answer do ya?
Here's another.
When Chuck E. Schumer says the Wall would be ineffective to help prevent illegal entry into the USA, did you ask yourself why it wold be ineffective? or did you just take his word for it?
 
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