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[W:1303]***To Believe or Not To Believe (1 Viewer)

Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

I guess Socrates wasn't real either, then.

Except Socrates has evidence, especially in the form of Plato and Xenophon's works, that he existed. But even if Socrates wasn't real, it doesn't matter because we have the ideas of Socrates that are really all that matters. I don't care if Socrates was real so long as the ideas of Socrates exist. The individual person isn't that meaningful. But for Christians, it is essential that Jesus was a real person and without Jesus being a real person, the entire theology falls apart. This is not the case with Socrates.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Atheism doesn't make arguments at all.
Yes, it does. It argues that no god(s) exist, for example.

Belief and lack of belief in gods are not arguments.
Belief in gods or no gods results from a circular argument; That's the very definition of belief.

They are states of mind.
No, they are not. They are beliefs.

When children believe in Santa Claus it is not an argument.
True. It is a belief (beliefs are not arguments in and of themselves). Beliefs are acceptance of circular arguments as trues.

When people believe in the powers of voodoo it is not an argument.
It is a belief. Beliefs are acceptance of circular arguments as trues.

When kids are afraid of monsters under their bed it is not an argument.
Fear, in and of itself, is not an argument. However, kids do form arguments concerning the existence of those monsters as a result of their fear. Those kids even tend to argue rather logically about it, as opposed to their parents who, surprisingly enough, typically don't.

You have no idea what an argument is
Inversion Fallacy. YOU don't have an idea... An argument consists of (a) predicate(s) and a conclusion which follows from it/them.

and that it has nothing to do with beliefs.
Belief, by definition, involves the acceptance of an argument as a true. You deny the very definition of belief.

Arguments are made in an attempt to justify beliefs, not to create the belief.
The 2nd part is wrong. An argument is needed before one can circularly accept/reject it as a true. Then, other arguments can be posited from that now-formed belief.

You've put the cart before the horse.
Actually, it seems that you have done so...
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Atheists despise religious beliefs, not knowing they have their own.

Yup. It's rather comical in ways, yet also rather sad in other ways.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

One observation. Jus gone: a bright light coming up from the horizon on a predictable schedule.
This is yet another observation in addition to the ones I listed.
Nothing else you wrote was an observation.
Yes they are.
No. The observation would be that there is s dog and a description of its behavior. “Lost” is a conclusion, not an observation.
'lost' is a description of it's behavior. The dog is not necessarily lost.
“Science” is the study of the natural world.
Science is a set of falsifiable theories. Those theories are about the natural world.
I never claimed science was observation
Yes you have.
so I have no idea what your point there is
My point is that science is not based on observation, nor does any theory contain any observation. Observation is not a proof. It is evidence only.
But there is a generalized “scientific method” used in science:
None.
Start with a question about a phenomenon.
Nope. A theory is an explanatory argument. You start with that to explain how or why a phenomena happens (even if the phenomena itself it not observed!).
Form a hypothesis to answer the question.
A hypothesis does not explain anything. It stems from an existing theory, not the other way 'round.
Test the hypothesis by making predictions
Science is incapable of making predictions. It is an open functional system. A theory must be formalized into a closed functional system to gain that power.
(here’s where your falsifiability comes in)
No, it doesn't. Falsifiability means the null hypothesis of a theory is testable, using a specific test, that produces a specific result.
Form a generalized theory that has explanatory power.
A theory remains the same through it's life. It is an explanatory argument. Hypothesis stem from existing theories. An example is the null hypothesis of a theory. Hypothesis don't explain anything.
Keep testing.
That is true for the life of a theory. Only tests against the null hypothesis of a theory are acceptable.
Your version of science doesn’t require any testing or evidence.
Yes it does. It specifies what kind of test a theory requires as well.

The concept that science is a 'method', using supporting evidence to create a theory, and then 'verifying' the theory to the point of it becoming a 'scientific' theory is actually how a religion works. Religions use supporting evidence, not science. Indeed, the philosopher that created this type of science was attempting to establish religion as part of science!

Supporting evidence is useless as a proof.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

The claim 'without faith you cannot love' is unsupported. Please support that claim. Let's see you show that to be true.

I already supported it for him. If you have no faith in another, how can you trust them enough to love them?
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe


You are pointing out observations that can be used to test a theory. They are not required, however, to create a theory or to test it.

The 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics used no observation at all in its creation. The 2nd law was tested by thought experiment, not by observation. They came from an extension of another theory of science, the Theory of the Conservation of Energy.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

We all are. My wife and I are about to celebrate our 26th wedding anniversary. We've been loving without faith for more than a quarter century.

So you do have faith in each other.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Atheism is not religion, that is nonsense.

Atheism is a belief that no god, gods, or spirits exist. That is a circular argument. It is an argument of faith. It is a religion.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Nope. You can fall in love with someone you know you can’t trust, who you know is bad for you, or who will never love ou back.

Really? Aren't you describing someone you 'know is bad for you'? That is a level of trust that they are bad for you! Faith is still involved, dude.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

I guess Socrates wasn't real either, then.

Quite right. The same arguments to try to prove Christ doesn't exist due to lack of evidence, can be applied to Socrates.

He is making an argument of ignorance fallacy. Lack of evidence is not a proof.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

That is a good possibility, although the references we have are more current to his lifetime. There is also the fact that there are no supernatural claims about Socrates, just events that are well within the realms of possibility. We have the testimony of Plato and Xenophon. Xenophon was known to be a reliable source, and was contemporary to Plato. The character of Plato Socrates is probably at least a bit fictionalized, but between that, and the writings from Xeonophane makes is probably that the basic story is true.

The word 'supernatural' doesn't mean anything. Just because YOU don't understand the nature of a thing doesn't mean is has no nature.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

We all are. My wife and I are about to celebrate our 26th wedding anniversary. We've been loving without faith for more than a quarter century.

Maybe loving without faith in God, but certainly not loving without faith in your spouse...
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

I'll address the rest of your comment at another time, but the bolded parts stick out like a sore thumb...

Welcome to Paradox City, once again...

1) Into The Night disagrees with you.
2) You and Into The Night seem to be the same person.

You're being irrational...

Also, he doesn't disagree with me in that particular comment. He said that science doesn't make use of supporting evidence. He didn't mention conflicting evidence at all in that post of his. There IS a difference between the two... He's on record for arguing that science only makes use of conflicting evidence (NOT supporting evidence) and he is correct about that.

Good catch. He indeed did put himself in yet another paradox there. I'll log that one!
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Nope. You can fall in love with someone you know you can’t trust, who you know is bad for you, or who will never love ou back.

That is also faith, pinqy... That is faith that you can't trust the person.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

You really need to look up the word paradox. You keep using it when contradiction would be the correct word (not all contradictions are paradoxes). And I neither contradicted myself nor created a paradox.

How typical. Trying to avoid your paradox by denying them. All contradictions are paradoxes. Denying a paradox does not make it go away. The only way to remove a paradox is the choose one argument or the other, and utterly reject the conflicting argument.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

He is. He further demonstrated that even in disfunctional relationships, faith is still required.

That's a truth that I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't think about...
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

You really need to look up the word paradox.
No, I really don't...

You keep using it when contradiction would be the correct word (not all contradictions are paradoxes).
Could you please provide an example of a contradiction which isn't a paradox?

And I neither contradicted myself nor created a paradox.
Denying paradoxes do not make them go away. You must choose one of the two arguments, and completely disregard the other argument, in order to clear your paradox...
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Except Socrates has evidence, especially in the form of Plato and Xenophon's works, that he existed.
Just as Christ has evidence, especially in the form of the works of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John.
But even if Socrates wasn't real, it doesn't matter because we have the ideas of Socrates that are really all that matters.
Paradox.
1) If Socrates is not real, there is no ideas of Socrates.
2) If Socrates is real, there are ideas of Socrates.

Therefore, what really matters is if Socrates was real.
I don't care if Socrates was real so long as the ideas of Socrates exist.
Irrational statement.
The individual person isn't that meaningful.
But it is. You can't have 'ideas of Socrates' without Socrates being real!
But for Christians, it is essential that Jesus was a real person and without Jesus being a real person, the entire theology falls apart.
Just as your argument for the ideas of Socrates falls apart.
This is not the case with Socrates.
Yes it is.

You are locked in a paradox. Which is it, dude? Was Socrates and his ideas real or not?
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

That's a truth that I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't think about...

Probably not. Even in Sun Tzu, he councils to learn as much as you can of your enemy. The reason he says that is because that is the only way you can build faith in predicting his actions in a given situation. Faith is even used to fight wars...faith in one's enemy. At the least, this is an unusual application of where faith is said to apply.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Except Socrates has evidence, especially in the form of Plato and Xenophon's works, that he existed.
Jesus has evidence as well... What about the four gospels? Are they not evidence?

But even if Socrates wasn't real, it doesn't matter because we have the ideas of Socrates that are really all that matters.
Yes, it DOES matter. Here, you argue a paradox... There can't be any "ideas of Socrates" if Socrates wasn't real...

I don't care if Socrates was real so long as the ideas of Socrates exist.
The ideas can only exist if HE existed...

The individual person isn't that meaningful.
The individual person is VERY meaningful.

But for Christians, it is essential that Jesus was a real person and without Jesus being a real person, the entire theology falls apart. This is not the case with Socrates.
Incorrect. That IS the case with Socrates, same as with Jesus Christ. The person needs to exist in order for their ideas to exist, otherwise, those ideas aren't their ideas...
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Just as Christ has evidence, especially in the form of the works of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John.

All of which are written anonymously. They are the CLAIMS, not the evidence.
 

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