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[W:1303]***To Believe or Not To Believe

Angel

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The Equivocation of Ambiguity


Do you remember your Shakespeare?

To believe, or not to believe, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The fools and frauds of delusional godlessness,
Or to take manure fork to a pile of horse flops,
And by tossing clean out the barn:

--William Shakespeare, The Cockalorum of Chester



This thread was inspired by post exchanges with "I Lack Belief" Atheists in this forum.




How can a lack of belief be a belief? If you lack something it means that you don't have it.
"Lack of belief" is an equivocation, a way for atheists in name only to avoid commitment. In fact it is an amphiboly, a kind of informal fallacy usually relied on in jokes.
Groucho's Captain Spaulding's "When I was in Africa last year I shot an elephant in my pajamas."
This is the level of the "I lack belief" atheism. It's literally a joke.
No, it isn't a joke. If it is possible to have a belief it is possible to lack a belief. Do you know every belief every human being has ever had in order to agree with them or not? Or do you lack them?


Amphiboly

In the Marx brothers movie Animal Crackers, Groucho Marx's character Captain Spaulding has just returned from an African safari when he speaks the following lines:

One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know.

Grammatically, the adjectival phrase "in my pajamas" ought to modify "an elephant", which it immediately follows. However, common sense suggests that it modifies "I". Then, the amphiboly is exploited for humor in the punch line.
Logical Fallacy: Amphiboly

Thesis

To have a belief is to believe.
To lack a belief is not to believe.
To believe or not to believe. That is the question.
Think.

The "I Lack Belief" Atheist is merely equivocating with an ambiguity in order to avoid commitment
This is Bad Faith Atheism
Shun it.
 

Quag

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

The Equivocation of Ambiguity


Do you remember your Shakespeare?

To believe, or not to believe, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The fools and frauds of delusional godlessness,
Or to take manure fork to a pile of horse flops,
And by tossing clean out the barn:

--William Shakespeare, The Cockalorum of Chester



This thread was inspired by post exchanges with "I Lack Belief" Atheists in this forum.







Amphiboly


Logical Fallacy: Amphiboly

Thesis

To have a belief is to believe.
To lack a belief is not to believe.
To believe or not to believe. That is the question.
Think.

The "I Lack Belief" Atheist is merely equivocating with an ambiguity in order to avoid commitment
This is Bad Faith Atheism
Shun it.

Nice attempt at a strawman trying top tell atheists what they think
Go take some courses on logic and stop posting this nonsense
 

zyzygy

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Nice attempt at a strawman trying top tell atheists what they think
Go take some courses on logic and stop posting this nonsense

He didn't remember his Shakespeare.
 

HonestJoe

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

The "I Lack Belief" Atheist is merely equivocating with an ambiguity in order to avoid commitment
That would only be a legitimate complaint if that was literally the only statement those people made on the topic. Is every theist who says “I believe in God” equivocating with an ambiguity in order to avoid commitment too?

I lack belief in any gods but I have plenty of other thoughts and opinions on theology, faith, religion and the wider socio-political questions surrounding them.

Also, admitting that you simply don’t know the answer is arguably a more scary and difficult commitment than coming up with some comforting soft answers to the difficult big questions of our existence.
 

Tim the plumber

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

To believe, or not to believe, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The fools and frauds of delusional gods,
Or to take manure fork to a pile of horse flops,
And by tossing clean out the barn.
 

zyzygy

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Out, damned spot!
 

Quag

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

He didn't remember his Shakespeare.

Remember? Do you honestly think he has ever actually read Shakespeare?
 

JustHanging

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Remember? Do you honestly think he has ever actually read Shakespeare?

To laugh or not to laugh. That is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fallacies
Or to take Arms against a Sea of Strawmen,
And by opposing bump them: to die
a little inside
 
Last edited:

Elora

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

To dwell on it or not to dwell on it...that is the question...I say not...let 'em be...
 

Manc Skipper

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Doubt thou the stars are fire,
Doubt that the sun doth move,
Doubt truth to be a liar,
But never doubt I laugh and laugh.
 

devildavid

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

That would only be a legitimate complaint if that was literally the only statement those people made on the topic. Is every theist who says “I believe in God” equivocating with an ambiguity in order to avoid commitment too?

I lack belief in any gods but I have plenty of other thoughts and opinions on theology, faith, religion and the wider socio-political questions surrounding them.

Also, admitting that you simply don’t know the answer is arguably a more scary and difficult commitment than coming up with some comforting soft answers to the difficult big questions of our existence.

Angel is a prime example of an equivocating theist. He knows that once he commits to a particular god he is open for criticism. So he sticks with the ambiguous god and is guilty of the very thing he falsely accuses atheists of.
 

Omega Man

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

How many of these identical threads threads do we have to wade thru? If it's the same discussion, can't that continue in one of the myriad previous identical threads? Holy cow.


OM
 

PoS

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roughdraft274

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

To have a belief is to believe.
To lack a belief is not to believe.
To believe or not to believe. That is the question.
Think.

How is "I don't believe in X" a difference from "I lack a belief in X"?

If we were discussing ghosts I see no difference in:
1. I don't believe in ghosts.
2. I lack a belief in ghosts.


Can you specify what the atheist position is that you have a problem with? I'd be surprised to find an atheist that disagrees with the phrase "I don't believe in god."
 

Omega Man

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JustHanging

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

I typically take the weekend off from online forums. Seems every Monday when I return to the forum, it's completely flooded with brand new threads, all outlining the same tired premises.


OM

Christianity has been using the same tired, debunked, arguments for God's existence for hundreds of years. Maybe she's hoping for a miracle, and that a winner is going to emerge from all the fail?
 

FreedomFromAll

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

The Equivocation of Ambiguity


Do you remember your Shakespeare?

To believe, or not to believe, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The fools and frauds of delusional godlessness,
Or to take manure fork to a pile of horse flops,
And by tossing clean out the barn:

--William Shakespeare, The Cockalorum of Chester



This thread was inspired by post exchanges with "I Lack Belief" Atheists in this forum.







Amphiboly


Logical Fallacy: Amphiboly

Thesis

To have a belief is to believe.
To lack a belief is not to believe.
To believe or not to believe. That is the question.
Think.

The "I Lack Belief" Atheist is merely equivocating with an ambiguity in order to avoid commitment
This is Bad Faith Atheism
Shun it.

FFS you either believe in gods or you do not. For those who do not believe in gods; when a believer claims that gods exist and the non-believer rejects that belief: that is normal logic.

We get it: you believe in gods and do not understand how anyone can reject your beliefs.

But now lets talk about your god; where is it now?
 

<alt>doxygen

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

I believe in a lot of things. I don't believe in a lot of things. There are a lot of things I have ambiguous beliefs towards. None of that has anything to do with religion or lack of religion.
 

Angel

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Nice attempt at a strawman trying top tell atheists what they think
Go take some courses on logic and stop posting this nonsense
Another post in frivolous blowhardism, "liked" by fans of frivolous blowhardism.
 

Cephus

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

How many of these identical threads threads do we have to wade thru? If it's the same discussion, can't that continue in one of the myriad previous identical threads? Holy cow.

An almost infinite number? I've already pointed out that it's the religious fanatics that make virtually every thread in this forum because they're looking for attention, then they complain when we respond, like our responding proves them right. I wish people would stop taking the bait.
 

Angel

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

That would only be a legitimate complaint if that was literally the only statement those people made on the topic. Is every theist who says “I believe in God” equivocating with an ambiguity in order to avoid commitment too?

I lack belief in any gods but I have plenty of other thoughts and opinions on theology, faith, religion and the wider socio-political questions surrounding them.

Also, admitting that you simply don’t know the answer is arguably a more scary and difficult commitment than coming up with some comforting soft answers to the difficult big questions of our existence.
Quite the opposite. The "theist who says 'I believe in God'" is neither "equivocating with an ambiguity" nor trying "to avoid commitment." That theist is owning his belief.
The atheist who equivocates with the ambiguous phrase "I lack belief" is trying to get out of owning his disbelief.
 

Angel

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

To believe, or not to believe, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The fools and frauds of delusional gods,
Or to take manure fork to a pile of horse flops,
And by tossing clean out the barn.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. But flattery will get you nowhere. And your atheism is in Nowheresville, man.
 

Angel

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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

To laugh or not to laugh. That is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fallacies
Or to take Arms against a Sea of Strawmen,
And by opposing bump them: to die
a little inside
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. This "strawman" that you see has a brain.
 
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