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[W:1127] Justice Department says classified documents at Mar-a-Lago were likely ‘concealed and removed’ to block investigation




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Well, well, well.

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After discussion with some of my real-life friends (yes, we do have them - don't we?), my friends & I came to the general conclusion that the decision to prosecute Mr. Trump would come down to what DOJ believes Trump was going to do with the documents:

- Why did he take them?

- What was his motivation?

- Why those specific documents?

- Was there nefarious intent?

One friend in particular was promoting that it seemed many of the documents in Trump's possession were specifically sought-out (and taken), possibly implying nefarious intent. And, the discussion flowed from that.


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To that I've penned above, I find this new development from DOJ troubling. DOJ is claiming a selection of documents was segregated from the main cache subpoenaed in the storage room that Trump was told to return, and then were secreted-away. Many of this secreted cache were of the very highest National Security Classifications - including 'Top Secret' & 'SCI'. They were found after the first subpoenaed recovery, during the performance of the subsequent search under warrant. I think it might be worth noting that after the initial subpoenaed recovery, Trumps' lawyers signed an affidavit declaring all items taken were now returned.

I strongly believe in law & order, and while I detest obstruction-of-justice as much as any crime, those that defend criminals' actions often seem to attempt to portray process-crimes as less than fully criminal. The thought seems to be the government doesn't have adequate evidence to prevail in the primary crime, so it resorts to a secondary process-crime. I can understand the thrust of that argument, too-a-point.

But if Trump tried to segregate and secret-away specific documents that DOJ & the judge had ordered him to return, then my view of this case is going to change quite a bit.

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Here's the DOJ Filing:

(linked through the article)


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Here's a photo of the documents that the government claims were removed from the main cache of documents:

(Exhibit F in the Filing)


doj-response-to-trump-special-master-p54-large.gif
But what does all this have to do with whether the judge should appoint a Special Master?
 
Agree. His motive is secondary to his actions unless of course there is hard evidence he profited or shared with America's enemies. It just struck me just how pathetic he is.

Yep. I realize that was your point, and I very much agree.
 
36 page brief - in response to a motion to appoint a Special Master to independently review the seized documents. Not sure why they would object at all.
What they appear to have done is see this filing as a golden opportunity to counter a bunch of Trump lies, lay out a public and compelling case of obstruction, AND pretty much obliterate the legal arguments in Trump's motion filed by clown car counsel.

And if you want to know why they object, you can read the filing. They go into that in great detail.
 
Trump is going DOWN!

When all this turns out to be nothing, will you finally give up on "the walls are closing in?"

How many of these do we have to go through, before folks will say "ok, I guess there really wasn't anything...."?
 
Wouldn't it be "fun" if an American employee at the Russian embassy made a FOI application for copies of the "totally declassified" documents that the FBI has seized pursuant to the validly issued search warrant?

It would be interesting to see what position the FBI and the DOJ would take to an application by an American citizen for access to American government documents which had absolutely no security classifications (not even the "Restricted" administrative classification that applies to some Army Training Manuals - for example the ones on HUMVEE maintenance).

If it came to a court case over the release of the materials, then that American employee at the Russian embassy could subpoena Mr. Trump so that he could testify, under oath, that he had, in fact, "declassified" the materials and placed them into the public domain by doing so.

Hey, don't laugh. We never know? If a judge went for the "declassified" defense, your post causes me to wonder if the do become subject to FOI?
 
When all this turns out to be nothing, will you finally give up on "the walls are closing in?"

How many of these do we have to go through, before folks will say "ok, I guess there really wasn't anything...."?

You do not understand how things work with people like Trump. The fact that he got away with certain behavior in the past is EXACTLY what drives his constant pursue of expanding the boundaries of his "authority." There is also a narcissistic element in enjoying the power of making people around him willing to legitimize his increasingly absurd behavior. At some point, when you play near the red line, you will step on it.
 
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I have no idea what they're doing, and please don't inform me - because I don't want to know!

OUCH!
There IS a difference in smell between when you burn coal and when you burn coprolite.
 
But what does all this have to do with whether the judge should appoint a Special Master?

That's the point of the OP & thread.

By filing suit, Trump has laid open events that far supersede the news of the suit alone. What went from a perfunctory legal motion, has blossomed into the public discovering DOJ's obstruction evidence, including displaying how he had broken & attempted to hid the very highest classification of our country's national defense secrets. Did you see the 'SCI' document cover? That can only be held inside a SCIF, never to be outside. Never. It's really serious - very serious - stuff.

Reference:


 
When all this turns out to be nothing, will you finally give up on "the walls are closing in?"

How many of these do we have to go through, before folks will say "ok, I guess there really wasn't anything...."?
By what measure can this turn out to be 'nothing'?
 
When all this turns out to be nothing, will you finally give up on "the walls are closing in?"

How many of these do we have to go through, before folks will say "ok, I guess there really wasn't anything...."?
Now that his bad acts are out of the political spectrum and into the legal system I'd say not many more.......well maybe one more.
 
What they appear to have done is see this filing as a golden opportunity to counter a bunch of Trump lies, lay out a public and compelling case of obstruction, AND pretty much obliterate the legal arguments in Trump's motion filed by clown car counsel.

And if you want to know why they object, you can read the filing. They go into that in great detail.
We all know he wont
 
What they appear to have done is see this filing as a golden opportunity to counter a bunch of Trump lies, lay out a public and compelling case of obstruction, AND pretty much obliterate the legal arguments in Trump's motion filed by clown car counsel.

And if you want to know why they object, you can read the filing. They go into that in great detail.

The bolded was not lost on me, nor will it be lost on the judge.
 
By what measure can this turn out to be 'nothing'?
Because they didn't kill off trump which is the bar niceguy as set for all this.
 
The original document in question have been "found" in Trump's office. But yes, we don't know who may have copied them (if they did), or who he may have shared them with (if he did).

And to try to play at least some Devil's Advocate to the government's claim (always a good thing), the government would have to prove their claim that the documents were indeed removed from the main cache specifically to obstruct the investigation. Though I would assume the sworn affidavit by the lawyers would suffice. At the least, it would seem the signatory attorney might have legal liability.



I swear, it's indeed Nixonian but on freaking steroids!
Not only the attorney, but Trump as well.

Depending on the type of copier and what the set up is, if the document was scanned for print or for saving on removable media, the copier may have that in its memory.
I think the FBI should have seized the "computer" and what ever internal server that exist in Trump Org & Mar-a -Lago.
It may well be that some of Trump associates who are overly devoted cultist groomed, may need to be observed or investigated.

________________

I'm not sure if any of you hear the reporters talking about the strange number of human assets that have been killed during the Trump term and after he left office, but investigation certainly needed to be put on steroids... because nothing about this is a small matter.
Trump spent years talking about Hillary, and here is he not in office with Classified Top Secret Documents.
There is likely so much more to this whole series of conduct acts regarding Trump, both in office and since he has been returned to public citizen status.

His vitriol toward Biden and this countries people and our government systems, I don't doubt that he used and/or planned to use those documents to do as much damages as he could to our current administration and this nation.. Because that is the vengeful mentality he has when he can't dominate and dictate over something.

I think investigation will show far more treasonous acts than what was indicated in the Mueller Report, and Congress is going to have to make some legislation to ensure that "NEVER" again, will any one have the unchecked power to do what Trump has done, and they have to do more to create a stone steel lined wall, that separates the Divisions of Government.

It will be decades before we get an educated enough society to accept the fact that nothing in the Constitution sanction nor supports "political parties". The design of our Congress never need the divisiveness of Political Parties. I think the younger more educated future generation will come to that level of understanding.
 
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So?

I bet you didn't object when anything that came out of Trump's hole started a new thread!

Going to have to live with it. This is NOT the end of Trump. Oh no...this is the beginning of the end for Dishonest Don.

And even better...? The JOC has learned of ANOTHER Cache of top secret criminally kept documents.

So you'll have to go ALL through this again and again.

I just realized we're getting pay back!

What a gorgeous day too! I'm going kyaking!!!!
Meh. Take a breath. Sometimes I point out duplicate threads, sometimes I don't. Sounds like a waste of time, but you can do some research to determine when i did or didn't.
 
That's the point of the OP & thread.

By filing suit, Trump has laid open events that far supersede the news of the suit alone. What went from a perfunctory legal motion, has blossomed into the public discovering DOJ's obstruction evidence, including displaying how he had broken & attempted to hid the very highest classification of our country's national defense secrets. Did you see the 'SCI' document cover? That can only be held inside a SCIF, never to be outside. Never. It's really serious - very serious - stuff.

Reference:


Yeah, it's really quite funny. I'm sure the affidavit lays out the same facts, but in a way they couldn't release without putting sources at risk. So they got a chance to start from scratch and make a very compelling public case against Trump, debunking a series of lies from his camp, WHILE they also pretty devastatingly destroyed his legal arguments in the motion. The DoJ notes that the current judge isn't the one who ruled on the affidavit, so take the opportunity to catch her up on the facts that just so happen to make Trump and his counsel look like bald face liars, and in a way that CAN be released to the public. I'm not a lawyer, but a copy under seal of the affidavit might have worked, but instead they got to create an entire document geared to the judge and all of us.

I mean, it's really quite stunning what the Trump team handed to DoJ. I'm sure when the DoJ realized the gift Trump and the judge handed them, there was much laughter and celebration all around.
 
some of our Top Secret (and above) documents are now in other countries.

we better start accepting that so we can better plan how to deal with what's happened.
 
Hey, don't laugh. We never know? If a judge went for the "declassified" defense, your post causes me to wonder if the do become subject to FOI?
One of the rules of contingency planning is that you have to ask "Hey, I know that they'd never _[fill in the blank]_, but what do we do if they do do it?" a lot.

The rule of operational planning is "Always have 'Plan A' ready."

The rule of good operational planning is "Always have 'Plan B' ready in case 'Plan A" doesn't work.".

The rule of really good operational planning is "Always have 'Plan C' ready in case neither 'Plan A' nor 'Plan B' works."

The rule of outstanding operational planning is "Always have 'Plan F' ready in case neither of 'Plan A', 'Plan B', or 'Plan C' works. The corollary to that rule is "Never let anyone know that 'Plan F' is really 'Fake it.'.".
 
36 page brief - in response to a motion to appoint a Special Master to independently review the seized documents. Not sure why they would object at all.

But what does all this have to do with whether the judge should appoint a Special Master?
I think, but don't know, that the basic premise is that the documents don't belong to Trump and as such he has no standing. They either are evidence in this criminal action or they are not relevant to the case and go back to the archives. In either case, they are not returned to Trump.
 
Hell of a picture, eh?

I always try to provide appropriate relevant images in my OP's, as I very much believe - "A picture's worth a thousand words".

In my mind, it no longer matters Trump's motive. He hid the materials. He lied. He lied through affidavit. He should face whatever penalty is due him by the evidence against him, as it would be for you or I.

Let a jury decide.
Trump being a Former President... should mandate a charge that includes, the highest of penalties. If he did not know better, he should have known better, but the way he railed on and on for 4 yrs, and the more than a year after office, he knew, he even pushed to increase penalty, so that increase should defiantly be applied to him.
and everyone involved should be charged with Misprision of Treason.

18 U.S. Code § 2382 - Misprision of treason


To hell with his cult... mobilize every law enforcement agency and Pump up the National Guard and have the divisional branches on the military on stand by, and the minute that cult... does anything... "wipe them out" and wipe the cave they hide it out as well.
Any act by them make sure it triggers the military to wipe out every camp of confederates, antigovernmental, and any other democracy disgracing group that exist on the soil of America.
 
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some of our Top Secret (and above) documents are now in other countries.

we better start accepting that so we can better plan how to deal with what's happened.

If we can prove that classified documents at any of Trump's properties, have found their way to another country, then Trump should get charged with espionage.
 
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