[W:1103] Netanyahu tells Israel ‘We are at war’ after Hamas launches an unprecedented attack on the country - Live Thread.

[LessBiased?]

It's not funny. Wtf is wrong with you? 1,400 Israeli civilians were murdered in cold blood by a group that wants to destroy the state of Israel and exterminate the Jewish people.

I am not going to lighten up.

You're taking it very personally. Is the situation in the ME personal to you? Are you Jewish? Do you have ties to Israel?

Debates here in dp should be reasonably dispassionate, and that's the attitude needed to reach a peace deal, otherwise peace is impossible.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

I'm more of a realpolitik person when it comes to this stuff.

Morality is reality.

In the real world, the only 'right' that winds up really mattering in these relations is 'might is right', there's never any absolute right for a nation-state to exist, as though from a law of nature or handed down from a sky-god (regardless of the inalienable rights described in the US constitution).

People die for their beliefs.

So if you want to engage in realpolitik you have to take a society's beliefs into account.

The Zionists have used to their might to take land others were living on, and those people, though overpowered, have tried to use their might to fight back. It is ugly, no way around it.

Instead of rights we could talk about justice, which is a more flexible concept. From that standpoint, I argue that the Zionist project is unjust.

You are completely contradicting yourself.

If your suggestion is that Israel should be destroyed you are not engaging in realpolitik.

You already know Israel will not allow itself to be destroyed.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

You're taking it very personally. Is the situation in the ME personal to you? Are you Jewish? Do you have ties to Israel?

Debates here in dp should be reasonably dispassionate, and that's the attitude needed to reach a peace deal, otherwise peace is impossible.

It's personal to me to the extent I am a human being and I see genocide as being against my belief system, and I feel real emotional pain when I learn about infants being burned alive or civilians being beheaded with deliberate intent. I am sad to slowly learn, that this is not something you really care about all that much. With that being the case, why are you even involved in this discussion?

I think when you're making jokes involving the holocaust, as it relates to a discussion about an event where 1,400 innocent civilians died, not as a result of collateral damage, but rather as a result of the intent to exterminate a group of people because of their ethnicity and religious views, you are engaging in conduct that may deviate from the rules of this forum. And it certainly deviates from what I would consider acceptable discourse. I think it's not appropriate to joke about the Holocaust or Hitler, okay? Especially within the context of last week's events. Got it? Understand?

So this isn't just about me being offended by your outrageous comments.

Your comments go beyond acceptable discourse, okay?

Do you get it? Do you understand?

 

[maxparrish]

Sorry, but that's a dumb and very ethnocentric thing to say. People can live how they want, western ways aren't the global standard. Just admit that you're a racist.

Correction: Some western ways have become a global standard, which means people cannot live how they want without pushback. Those who want to commit genocide, murder babies, torture people to death, assassinate journalists, and in general commit crimes against humanity may be living the way they want, but it is against global humanitarian standards - standards whose roots are in the west.

And the poster is correct; modernity means accepting those moral standards. Those in the ME who cling to Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance, who embrace their own sick jihadis ideologies, have no place in the modern world. So as long as such cultures and people's exist, and a threat to the safety and security of others, they should be the target of excoriation.

Bottom line: If your culture wants to live in tents, or dress in desert garb and drive limos, people have a right to live as they want. But no person or culture has the right to do the horrible acts against innocents because their "religion" or cultural values compels it.

 

[Patriotguy]

I'm more of a realpolitik person when it comes to this stuff. In the real world, the only 'right' that winds up really mattering in these relations is 'might is right', there's never any absolute right for a nation-state to exist, as though from a law of nature or handed down from a sky-god (regardless of the inalienable rights described in the US constitution).

The Zionists have used to their might to take land others were living on, and those people, though overpowered, have tried to use their might to fight back. It is ugly, no way around it.

Instead of rights we could talk about justice, which is a more flexible concept. From that standpoint, I argue that the Zionist project is unjust.

The land belongs to Israel, palestinians are not an actual ethnic group, they are a made up people who serve as cannon fodder for Hamas, they are all arabs mostly kicked out of other arab countries that is fact

 

[Rich2018]

Morality is reality.

So Nazi concentration camps were moral, when they existed in reality ?

People die for their beliefs.

Like the 9/11 terrorists did.

So if you want to engage in realpolitik you have to take a society's beliefs into account.

No, you have to take the leadership of said societies, beliefs into account
Do you really think the people of Gaza wanted to be bombed ?
Or the people of Russia wanted war with the Ukraine ?

If your suggestion is that Israel should be destroyed you are not engaging in realpolitik.

Israel has every right to be outraged, but a ground war in Gaza is not the way forward
It's just going to get a lot of people killed and cause a lot of destruction.

You already know Israel will not allow itself to be destroyed.

What country would ?

 

[LessBiased?]

It's personal to me to the extent I am a human being and I see genocide as being against my belief system, and I feel real emotional pain when I learn about infants being burned alive or civilians being beheaded with deliberate intent. I am sad to slowly learn, that this is not something you really care about all that much. With that being the case, why are you even involved in this discussion?

I think when you're making jokes involving the holocaust, as it relates to a discussion about an event where 1,400 innocent civilians died, not as a result of collateral damage, but rather as a result of the intent to exterminate a group of people because of their ethnicity and religious views, you are engaging in conduct that may deviate from the rules of this forum. And it certainly deviates from what I would consider acceptable discourse. I think it's not appropriate to joke about the Holocaust or Hitler, okay? Especially within the context of last week's events. Got it? Understand?

So this isn't just about me being offended by your outrageous comments.

Your comments go beyond acceptable discourse, okay?

Do you get it? Do you understand?

You're massively twisting what I said. All I said is that I'm not a fan of Hitler (neither are you), which is true, albeit understatement. I have not joked about anyone dying and have not wished for nor celebrated anyone dying.

 

[Apocalypse]

Reports of some explosions in Iranian nuclear site.

 

[Ethel2]

Read where? the west bank Palestinians don't.

Clarification: the majority of Palestinians living in Gaza support Hamas.

 

[LessBiased?]

Correction: Some western ways have become a global standard, which means people cannot live how they want without pushback. Those who want to commit genocide, murder babies, torture people to death, assassinate journalists, and in general commit crimes against humanity may be living the way they want, but it is against global humanitarian standards - standards whose roots are in the west.

And the poster is correct; modernity means accepting those moral standards. Those in the ME who cling to Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance, who embrace their own sick jihadis ideologies, have no place in the modern world. So as long as such cultures and people's exist, and a threat to the safety and security of others, they should be the target of excoriation.

Bottom line: If your culture wants to live in tents, or dress in desert garb and drive limos, people have a right to live as they want. But no person or culture has the right to do the horrible acts against innocents because their "religion" or cultural values compels it.

I think the basic instinct for morality is biologically wired into humans and is universal, not very culture dependent. But people can rationalize all sorts of things, including killing, based on belief systems. And of course the wiring is messed up in some particular people (e.g., Trump, Putin, many others throughout history). In my view, all extremist factions of religions and other ideologies suck.

 

[Chagos]

I think you have some sort of strange animosity towards Israel and Jews that prevents you from seeing the truth.

I hate that I have to even post this.

Aren't the actions of Hamas proof enough of what I write?

Or, is your moral compass so broken that you cannot tell the difference between right and wrong?

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions.

www.theatlantic.com

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”

"With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others...They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there."

"For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realization of their dream."

"In their Nazi treatment [of other peoples], the Jews made no exception for women or children. Their policy of striking fear in the heart is meant for all. They attack people where their breadwinning is concerned, extorting their money and threatening their honor."

The quotes specifically single out Jews as the target of violence and promote anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about Jewish power and their alleged evil nature.

This demonstrates an ideological intent by Hamas to kill Jews in particular.

Indeed!!!

People should read the content of the Hamas Charter and those wishing to convince themselves that Hamas has pedaled back on it meanwhile, need only see that it has not been changed by later Hamas comments such as

In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons."

cannot be changed for internal reasons indeed (my bloody effing foot).

That's like saying the Wannsee conference decisions were not really relevant but can't be changed for the same reasons.

 

[jaypatriot]

They would just build up and train an army to invade Israel. There is no settlement that the hardliners that control the Palestinians will accept. Muslims often continue fighting those they see as enemies for 1000's of years like the Shia and Sunni tribes.

iguana,
For a Liberal, your thinking is straight when it comes to the intractable Hamas and their ultimate goal - not to lead people in Gaza but to destroy the country of Israel.

 

[Chagos]

Clarification: the majority of Palestinians living in Gaza support Hamas.

We don't know that and have no way of knowing, In fact nobody does, not even Hamas.

It would be like claiming that the majority of Germans supported the invasion of Russia, while anyone in Germany protesting against the war wound up a head shorter.

That doesn't rule out the possibility of general support, but we know this just as little.

 

[iguanaman]

iguana,
For a Liberal, your thinking is straight when it comes to the intractable Hamas and their ultimate goal - not to lead people in Gaza but to destroy the country of Israel.

Evil is clear no matter what the slant. Just look at who Hamas is allied with. Iran and Russia.

 

[jaypatriot]

The land belongs to Israel, palestinians are not an actual ethnic group, they are a made up people who serve as cannon fodder for Hamas, they are all arabs mostly kicked out of other arab countries that is fact

Palestinians are an ethnic group. They don't have ownership of any land called Palestine. They have not shown they can govern land leading up to a two-state solution. Interestingly, 20 percent of Israel's population are Arabs. It is impossible to think that Palestinians will now be able to live in peace as those Arabs who live in Israel.
Gaza strip residents are merely shields for Hamas to use as they prepare for brutal fighting to eliminate the cockroach Hamas terrorist group.

 

[iguanaman]

Sorry, but that's a dumb and very ethnocentric thing to say. People can live how they want, western ways aren't the global standard. Just admit that you're a racist.

I think evil is wrong I admit it. The lack of empathy towards human life is not acceptable to me. I do not care if it their "way" or not. It is primitive and cruel and has no place anywhere on earth. The alternative is to be complicit with terror and brutality. Did you feel the same about the Nazi's? Could they also "live like they want"?

 

[Chagos]

Doubt they want to kill every Jew around the world. I'm not even sure Hitler wanted to do that.........................~

That's gotta be the most idiotic comment of the day, making any moral evaluation of it completely superfluous.

 

[Ethel2]

We don't know that and have no way of knowing, In fact nobody does, not even Hamas.

It would be like claiming that the majority of Germans supported the invasion of Russia, while anyone in Germany protesting against the war wound up a head shorter.

That doesn't rule out the possibility of general support, but we know this just as little.

FWIW:

As of now, a recent survey indicates that 58% of the population in the Gaza Strip stands with Hamas.

How Many Palestinians Currently Support Hamas? Delving into the Latest Dynamics

The escalating tensions between Israel and Hamas have yet again underscored the significance of grasping the extent of Palestinian backing for Hamas. As - How Many Palestinians Currently Support Hamas? Delving into the Latest Dynamics CoopWB

coopwb.in

Needless to say you can probably take this survey with a grain of salt. But the fact that Hamas is still in control speaks to their level of support to an extent. If a large majority of people in Gaza didn't want them perhaps they could overthrow them. All we know now is that the Palestinians of Gaza are at least tolerating a murderous group of terrorists who need to be emasculated.

 

[LessBiased?]

Evil is clear no matter what the slant. Just look at who Hamas is allied with. Iran and Russia.

"Evil" is just a way of asserting that one side is the bad guys. Doesn't really help understand anything.

That said, I do think Putin is off his rocker, and the Iranian leadership has also tended to be extremist. Two decades, I knew some Iranian students in the US and they were saying they wished the US would invade Iran and liberate the people from its leadership.

Seems to me that Hamas are basically resistance fighters who've gone in an extremist direction. But I don't claim to be a Hamas expert (pretty sure hardly anyone in this thread is, but all have opinions).

 

[LessBiased?]

That's gotta be the most idiotic comment of the day, making any moral evaluation of it completely superfluous.

Did you really believe that Hitler thought he had the reach to kill every Jew in the world? Educate me ...

 

[Desert Storm]

How does that work? half the population of Gaza are kids

If those kids havent been evacuated yet to the southern part of Gaza which Israel wont bomb, and if Hamas is using them as shields, then Hamas are the most evil f__kers on the planet

 

[Paradoxical]

That's gotta be the most idiotic comment of the day, making any moral evaluation of it completely superfluous.

Why?

 

[iguanaman]

"Evil" is just a way of asserting that one side is the bad guys. Doesn't really help understand anything.

That said, I do think Putin is off his rocker, and the Iranian leadership has also tended to be extremist. Two decades, I knew some Iranian students in the US and they were saying they wished the US would invade Iran and liberate the people from its leadership.

Seems to me that Hamas are basically resistance fighters who've gone in an extremist direction. But I don't claim to be a Hamas expert (pretty sure hardly anyone in this thread is, but all have opinions).

So you do not know if mowing down 100's of innocent young people at a concert is evil or not?

 

[LessBiased?]

FWIW:

As of now, a recent survey indicates that 58% of the population in the Gaza Strip stands with Hamas.

How Many Palestinians Currently Support Hamas? Delving into the Latest Dynamics

The escalating tensions between Israel and Hamas have yet again underscored the significance of grasping the extent of Palestinian backing for Hamas. As - How Many Palestinians Currently Support Hamas? Delving into the Latest Dynamics CoopWB

coopwb.in

Needless to say you can probably take this survey with a grain of salt. But the fact that Hamas is still in control speaks to their level of support to an extent. If a large majority of people in Gaza didn't want them perhaps they could overthrow them. All we know now is that the Palestinians of Gaza are at least tolerating a murderous group of terrorists who need to be emasculated.

That would mean that about half of the civilians don't support Hamas, but are being bombed anyway. Just a little 'collateral damage' to go after Hamas.

 

[LessBiased?]

So you do not know if mowing down 100's of innocent young people at a concert is evil or not?

I avoid using that word in my analysis of these events. Just stirs up emotions and clouds objectivity and reasoning.