[W:105] GOD HIMSELF will be with them

Valery said:

It is beyond me why anyone would want to go to hell by believing in such obvious falsehoods.

Some people disbelieve, I think, because they want to live immoral lives. They want to do things that seemingly give them immediate pleasure.

Why on earth would someone say no to those things and still refuse to worship one God?

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Too stubborn to admit they're wrong...there's little you can do about it...

"So I let them follow their stubborn hearts;
They did what they thought was right." Psalm 81:12

Elvira said:

Too stubborn to admit they're wrong...there's little you can do about it...

"So I let them follow their stubborn hearts;
They did what they thought was right." Psalm 81:12

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That's what I've been telling you!

You got this all wrong too -

just like the way you got it wrong when you kept speaking about Christians and their pagan-based holidays
with contempt!


I gave you a verse that I timely "stumbled" upon at that very moment we were debating about Christians pagan-based practices........ didn't I?
That I came upon that verse that seems to speak directly to you.....would almost seem like God wants you to listen!

You and JW still practice some pagan-based tradition! You still use rings in your wedding ceremony - don't you?


Remember this particular verse?

Romans 14

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike.
Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God;
and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.


10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt?
For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.



22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.
Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves.

23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.




As it turned out - for all your contempt and condemnation of other Christians - you're the one in the wrong!
What you and JW condone and practice in your church, is not from faith!

You and JW know that using rings in weddings is pagan-based (which you say is a sinful act - and you condemn others by it) , and yet you still use them anyway!



The same with this one.
As usual, you find it better to side with a non-Christian who seeks to discredit the Bible, in condemning your brothers and sisters
in Christ!

Let's get this clear - you're up in arms alongside Valery who does not see Christ as the Messiah.


Matthew 12
30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.




Lol. You don't know where you belong, don't you?

tosca1 said:

That's what I've been telling you!

You got this all wrong too -

just like the way you got it wrong when you kept speaking about Christians and their pagan-based holidays
with contempt!


I gave you a verse that I timely "stumbled" upon at that very moment we were debating about Christians pagan-based practices........ didn't I?
That I came upon that verse that seems to speak directly to you.....would almost seem like God wants you to listen!

You and JW still practice some pagan-based tradition! You still use rings in your wedding ceremony - don't you?


Remember this particular verse?

Romans 14

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike.
Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God;
and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.


10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt?
For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.



22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.
Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves.

23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.




As it turned out - for all your contempt and condemnation of other Christians - you're the one in the wrong!
What you and JW condone and practice in your church, is not from faith!

You and JW know that using rings in weddings is pagan-based (which you say is a sinful act - and you condemn others by it) , and yet you still use them anyway!



The same with this one.
As usual, you find it better to side with a non-Christian who seeks to discredit the Bible, in condemning your brothers and sisters
in Christ!

Let's get this clear - you're up in arms alongside Valery who does not see Christ as the Messiah.


Matthew 12
30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.




Lol. You don't know where you belong, don't you?

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Elvira said:

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You can give whatever you wanna give - you still got it all wrong. AS CLEARLY SHOWN!

Here is a very vivid example why GOD and JESUS.......... has got to be One and the Same.
Please refer to the exchanges below - for complete texts, click on link.

If a Christian does not believe that Jesus is God Himself, he will fall into the same trap that a Jehovah's Witnesses has gotten herself into:

tosca1 said:

GOD HAD RULED THAT YOU HAVE TO OBEY AUTHORITIES HE ESTABLISHED ON EARTH.

As your Ruler - God had given you that clear instruction. Are you going to obey Him or not?

BTW, not only does God say we have to obey governments - BUT slaves have to obey their masters too!
As far as i know, their masters were human too.


Which part of that is so hard for you to understand?

Are those parts taken out of the NWT too?


You seem to think your Jehovah's Witnesses is more authoritative than God.....let us be clear on this:
Is your organization called Jehovah's Witnesses - your God?

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Elvira said:

Jesus is my authority...I am on Jesus's side, the side of truth, for his kingdom and his kingdom only...he stated his neutral position to the Roman authorities when Pontius Pilate asked Jesus...

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I had to question her:


Jesus is your authority.......not GOD?
You saying, you're not on God's side?

Jesus is the side of truth, not God?



We inevitably get into idolatry - idolizing Jesus - if we don't believe that God and Jesus are One and The Same.

Jude
8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings.

9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to
condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”


Michael isn't God. Jesus, is.



Compare Archangel Michael's call on the Lord to rebuke Satan above, to the Power and Authority of Jesus
in REBUKING Satan:


Matthew 4
10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written,
“ ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’ ”


Jesus Christ is God incarnate.

Titus 2

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own,
eager to do what is good.

God the Father's life-giving spirit is in everyone equally. And his personality (soul) is inseparable from his spirit (essence). But he stays silent in people so they can become unique souls of their own thru a lifetime of individual experiences. Even though he is in us in full force, we do not have his perfect knowledge or control of his power. The Father is limitless, without form, but takes on a new identity in each of us. That's why Jesus said 'Truly I tell you, the Son is not able to do anything on his own; he can do only what he sees his Father doing.' He revealed to his son that he is everyone in being yet still distinctly different in character. God is all of us and we are all a part of God. The Father doesn't love the son more than us, he only has a different relationship with him.

When the heavenly father said 'this is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased,' he wasn't talking to himself personally. When Jesus said 'the Father alone is good,' or 'greater than I,' he meant as a different part of God. We're all God the Father in different forms, and that's why Jesus said those who have seen me, have seen the Father, because no human can see God's face, except Jesus. We're all One with Jesus and the Father in spirit and part of the same being.

Jesus was God, the fullness of deity in the flesh, and closer to the Father than any other. But they are two uniquely different personalities. Jesus said we are all invited to sit with him on his Father's throne and rule. That means that we will be equals with them and no longer servants. And the Father himself has existed in the flesh many times unknown to people.

Born King of Angels, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords speaks of the Father within the Son. Also known as the Ancient of Days, the Great I Am gives his glory to no other but shares it with whom he chooses. IMHO.

tosca1 said:

God is the only One who can give forgiveness.


Matthew 6
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11
Give us today our daily bread.
12
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.




Matthew 6
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


Mark 11
25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.


Luke 23
32 There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”







And yet, Jesus had forgiven sins.


Mark 2
Jesus Forgives and Heals a Paralytic

2 And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house. 2 Immediately[a] many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them. 3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. 4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”




Luke 7
41 “There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”

43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.”

And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.” 44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. 45 You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. 47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”

48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

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Claiming to be God Himself - is the blasphemy of Jesus, as seen by the Jews:


Luke 5
20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”
21 The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, “Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy?
Who can forgive sins but God alone?”


John 10
33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Looks at these 2 passages.



Deuteronomy 32
39 “See now that I myself am he!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.


Compare with


John 10
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

Myth and superstition thread.

RECAP: the following have been given as evidence to show Jesus is God Himself, and the truth of the Triune God:



OP: Rev 21:3 (The title, Alpha and Omega; God and the Lamb)

Post #2 - Isaiah 45 compare with Luke 2:11, Romans 10:9, 1 Cor 8:6

Post #3 – compare Isaiah 45 with John 5:39

Post #4 – Isaiah 44:6 compare with Rev 1: 17-18, Rev 2:8

Post #5 – Isaiah 9:6

Post #6 - Isaiah 44:24 compare with John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-16

Post #7 - Colossians 1:15, John 4:24 (The invisible God becomes visible thru Jesus Christ)


Post #8 - John 1:1-3

Post #9 - John 8 tied to Isaiah 42:8

Post #10 - John 10 – how Jews understood who Jesus claimed Himself to be.



Post #11 – John 14:9 tightly tied with Colossians 1:15

Post #12 – 1 Timothy 3 :16, Philippians 2: 5-7, and Titus 2 13-14 (also tied to Post #11)

Post #13 – Hebrews 1:8-9

Post #14 - Genesis 17:17 compare with Rev 1:7-8

Post #15 - Isaiah 33:22 compare with John 14, Rev 22:12-13, James 4:12, Isaiah 40:10



Post #16 – Concept of The TRIUNE GOD (Trinity) first introduced on the very first statement in the Bible.

Post #17 – Genesis 1:1 compare with John 1:1-2

Post #18 – Why “The Word?”

Post #19 - The Spirit in Genesis 1

Post #20 – again.......Why “The Word?”



Post #21 - God is the only One who can forgive, and yet..... Mark 2:2-8, Luke 7:41-49

Post #22 - Jesus forgives as GOD HIMSELF! Mark 2:5



Post #24 - Another evidence for the TRIUNE God. Genesis 3:22

Post #25 - Genesis 11:6-7



Post #26 - Doubting Thomas recognizes God, John 20:24-29



Post #31 - CHRISTOPHANY, pre-incarnate Christ in the Old Testament, Exodus 3:1-6


Post #32 – Christophany in Judges 13




Post #34 - “I AM.” The “I Am” of Jesus Christianity compare Exodus 3:13-14 with John 8:58



Post #38 - IF God is a loving God......


Post #45 - An absolute Monotheistic statement by Jesus John 2:18-19. Also Deuteronomy 32:39


Post #46 – Jesus reverses the curse that God said no one can!


Post #48 – A rebuttal: IF Jesus is not God.....


Post#58 - Mark 2 revisited


Post #59 - God/Jesus, Redeemer and Saviour


Post #60 - The ultimate Authority Matthew 28:18


Post #62 – The Lord of the Sabbath


Post #63 – Jesus is referred to as God, Titus 2:11-14


Post #64 - Jesus is no angel! He is declared GOD! Hebrews 1:6-12, Hebrews 13:8-9





Post #65 - The Triune God, 1 Peter 1:2


Post #66 - The Triune God, Romans 8: 9-11 ***Lol! Thanks to Elvira – how ironic is that?


Post #67 - 1 Cor 2


Post #68 – John 10 gives a deep explanation


Post #69 - IF God is a living God (again).......a clearer picture.


Post #70 - Invitation to the Thirsty – compare Isaiah 55 with John 4.


Post #72 - The New Testament – we can't have it both ways!


Post #73 - John 1: 18 (Triune God)


Post #74 - The Groom and His bride


Post #78 - One True Shepherd – monotheistic statements by God (Brett McBride video)


Post #79 – Genesis 1 revisited: explanation/comparison with John 1


Post #80 – Human Sacrifice


Post #81 - The Voice of God (credit to Spartan)


Post #82 - First 3 sentences of Romans 8 about Jesus and the Spirit as One. (credit to Aimiel)


Post #86 - Matt: 28:19 (credit to it's just me)


Post #104 - Job 19:25 (credit to Logicman)


Post #108 – Philippians 2


Post #109 - Acts 20 – The Trinity


Post #111 – If Jesus is not God....


Post #113 – Immanuel – supported by John 1, Luke 1, and Matthew 1.


Post #114 - Isaiah 40:3 (credit to Jerry Shugart)


Post #115 – Facsimile! Hebrews 1:3 ***Lol! Thanks to Elvira – how ironic is that?


Post #119 - Still on facsimile.


Post #120 – On the matter of the Thief crucified with Jesus. ***Lol! Thanks to Elvira – how ironic is that?



Post #126 – John 14 – The TRINITY! ***Lol! Thanks to Elvira – how ironic is that?




Post #127 – Matthew 12 - spoken as God!


Post #128 - Collosians 2 – stating it plainly!


Post #129 - A line from Isaiah 45 nags at me!


Post #131 – Collosians 1 – another explanation!


Post #132 - Christophany! Hagar rocognizes God in the pre-incarnate Christ!





Post #133 – Precedence: God appears as a man – Genesis 18, Genesis 32


Post #135 - Going back to Hagar, in comparison with Thomas


Post #138 – Rebuttal: can't be mere expressions


Post #142 – Rebuttal


Post $145 – Rebuttal





Post #147, #148 – John 1, Romans 8 (Triune God), Matthew 10: Evidence and explanation why Jesus, God and the Spirit are so intertwined



Post #155 – An example why Jesus has got to be God: Elvira falls into the trap


Post #156 – The Power to Rebuke the devil



Post #157 – Titus 2 (God's appearance, Saviour and Redeemer)


Post #159 - In their language and lingo of the time – Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself! That's the blasphemy!



Post #160 – Comparison between Deuteronomy 32 with John 10

Elvira gave a good point why Jesus has got to be GOD.

In a discussion about Hell and eternal punishment, she gave this for an argument:

Elvira said:

Yeah, which is a lie, adopted from pagan beliefs...the Bible does not teach hellfire...does this sound like a
God who would do such a thing?

"They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom,*+ in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire,+

something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’* Jeremiah 7:31

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Of course, the quote from God was taken out of context.
Yes, He's never commanded anyone to kill and offer their children to Him for sacrifice, that's why He's livid to see them doing that for
other gods.


BUT, God sets examples for us.


If Jesus is NOT God - then, what was this all about?

He did command His Son, Jesus to die for us - as the SACRIFICIAL LAMB to appease God's wrath -
and, Jesus, being an obedient Son, dutifully obeyed.

And, surely that command wasn't made on spur of the moment. [/QUOTE]

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath in scripture - a clear reference to his deity.

There is only one truly perfect man - JESUS.
He is perfect because He is God (in human form).


Matthew 5
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.

Well - another amazing thing happened!
ELVIRA had accidentally gave another one that supports the belief that Jesus and God are one and the same.
It had something to do with the thief who was crucified with Jesus.

Elvira said:


Yes indeed, we know they're all wrong too because Jesus did not go to paradise on the day he died...

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Actually, what you pointed out supports the belief of the TRIUNE GOD. That Jesus and God are one.

JESUS, AS GOD (tells the thief that today, he will be with Him (GOD) to paradise.

That is supported by this:

1 Thessalonians 4​

Believers Who Have Died​

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the
rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.




As I had explained, Jesus died for mankind's sin - He's fulfilled what He came to do. That opens up the gate of Heaven to believers!
Jesus knew what was about to happen on that day (His dying for our sins), thus He was able to reassure the man,
today you will be with me in paradise.

​

JESUS, THE MAN (God incarnate as the MESSIAH), went to Hell.



The thief went with GOD (Father) to paradise............................... while Jesus (also God), went to hell!



Post #122, #133, #141

What happens after death?

I’m probably arrogant through sheer luck because there is not one dead person I long to see again. So, I’m hoping Death is still.

debatepolitics.com

If God and Jesus are one and the same, why doesn't the Old Testament ever mention Jesus of Nazareth by name? 'Messiah' and 'Christ' were simply well-known titles from Old Testament prophecies that Jesus of Nazareth claimed for himself, but where in the Old Testament does it identify who the Messiah would be? If it is the word of God, then why didn't God identify the messiah? And how do we know that Jesus of Nazareth was not simply a charismatic con man who managed to convince a small group of people that he was God, and that the Christian religion didn't spring up from a small Jewish cult following a con artist? Many other historical figures have made the same claim. How do we know that one of them wasn't the real messiah?

lwf said:

If God and Jesus are one and the same, why doesn't the Old Testament ever mention Jesus of Nazareth by name? 'Messiah' and 'Christ' were simply well-known titles from Old Testament prophecies that Jesus of Nazareth claimed for himself, but where in the Old Testament does it identify who the Messiah would be? If it is the word of God, then why didn't God identify the messiah? And how do we know that Jesus of Nazareth was not simply a charismatic con man who managed to convince a small group of people that he was God, and that the Christian religion didn't spring up from a small Jewish cult following a con artist? Many other historical figures have made the same claim. How do we know that one of them wasn't the real messiah?

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If they were the same who did Jesus ask to forgive his crucifiers, when it was him all along?

lwf said:

If God and Jesus are one and the same, why doesn't the Old Testament ever mention Jesus of Nazareth by name? 'Messiah' and 'Christ' were simply well-known titles from Old Testament prophecies that Jesus of Nazareth claimed for himself, but where in the Old Testament does it identify who the Messiah would be?

Click to expand...

Why does God have to mention Jesus by name? The whole OT is about HIM!
You might just as well ask, why doesn't the OT identify who is the Antichrist!


Furthermore, Jesus was in the OT! In the form of Christophanies!
The whole Bible is about Him!

If it is the word of God, then why didn't God identify the messiah?

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How does identifying the Messiah have anything to do about if it being the word of God?


If God doesn't want to make it so easy, that's His prerogative, being God!


Who are we to question His Authority? Just because we think He should have done this, or that.
What qualifies us? Do we know the mind of God?


BTW, have you actually contemplated what would've happened if God did mention the Messiah by name?
How many couples do you think would've named their son, JESUS?
I bet the whole REGION where Jews were - never mind village - would've been swarming with sons named, JESUS!
Every male you meet was called Jesus - kinda like the brothers "Darryll, Darryll and Darryll!"
Would that have made it simpler, you think?

If Jesus was identified from the start (and to which parent He would be born to), imagine the kind of attention the
whole family would've had.


Thousands of years later - someone would still be complaining. Why didn't He specify which Jesus it was!




GOD ALWAYS HAS HIS REASONS. HE DOESN'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN THEM TO US.

And how do we know that Jesus of Nazareth was not simply a charismatic con man who managed to convince a small group of people that he was God, and that the Christian religion didn't spring up from a small Jewish cult following a con artist? Many other historical figures have made the same claim. How do we know that one of them wasn't the real messiah?

Click to expand...

That's why you need to read the Bible. Or, ask someone who had read it. AND UNDERSTOOD IT!
They'll explain THESE to you:


More than 300 prophecies about the Messiah were all fulfilled by Jesus.

All the miracles!



The CONFIRMATION OF GOD, THAT JESUS IS HIS SON THE MESSIAH.............................. WAS WITNESSED!

His Baptism

Matthew 3
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”



The Transfiguration.

Mark 9

The Transfiguration​

2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them.
3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them.
4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

5 Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
6 (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)

7 Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”

8 Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus.



Then, there's the RESURRECTION.




I accommodated your questions, and have answered them. Now, let's get back on topic.
This thread is about Jesus and God being One and the Same (The Trinity).

lwf said:

If God and Jesus are one and the same, why doesn't the Old Testament ever mention Jesus of Nazareth by name? 'Messiah' and 'Christ' were simply well-known titles from Old Testament prophecies that Jesus of Nazareth claimed for himself, but where in the Old Testament does it identify who the Messiah would be? If it is the word of God, then why didn't God identify the messiah? And how do we know that Jesus of Nazareth was not simply a charismatic con man who managed to convince a small group of people that he was God, and that the Christian religion didn't spring up from a small Jewish cult following a con artist? Many other historical figures have made the same claim. How do we know that one of them wasn't the real messiah?

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Ancient Rabbis believed the Messiah would be God. (that's who Jesus is)

See the article below - Messiah to be God

Oh, boy! Elvira is on a roll - she's really the gift that keeps on giving!




Since you brought up John 6.........did you read farther down?



John 6

47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.
50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”


52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—
they are full of the Spirit and life.




Lol! THE SPIRIT! THE FATHER! And, JESUS!



64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”
For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would
betray him.

65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless
the Father has enabled them.”




There's the referral to the TRINITY again!

Logicman said:

Ancient Rabbis believed the Messiah would be God. (that's who Jesus is)

See the article below - Messiah to be God

http://menorah.org/Messiah%20to%20be%20God-Divine.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2A_ViEM59AHbtDA3mzxUugseyekcJSB_oiTuJ07FyX29p4gWfMdxAOadU

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It's who Jesus claimed to be. All we really know about him are stories written by followers who were convinced that he was the Messiah. What reason is there to take these writings at face value? Joseph Smith also performed miracles according to the writings of his followers. Do these miracles right there in black and white text for all to see prove his divinity? Or are we skeptical of those supposed miracles due to the credibility of those who recorded them? What is the difference here?

lwf said:

It's who Jesus claimed to be. All we really know about him are stories written by followers who were convinced that he was the Messiah. What reason is there to take these writings at face value? Joseph Smith also performed miracles according to the writings of his followers. Do these miracles right there in black and white text for all to see prove his divinity? Or are we skeptical of those supposed miracles due to the credibility of those who recorded them? What is the difference here?

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Joseph Smith's Mormons believe in Jesus as the Son of God and that Jesus performed miracles. So go with Jesus because he has the approval of Mormons and Christians.

As for the accounts of Jesus, they are from multiple, independent eyewitnesses. The early church fathers were also UNANIMOUS that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote the Gospels that bear their names, making Matthew and John, and Peter via Mark, eyewitnesses. If you think they're just stories that might have been made up, remember that except for John, who died in old age, the other apostles were all martyred for their faith rather than deny Jesus and his resurrection.

Finally, if you think any of the Gospel accounts are fictitious, then please show me your BEST ONE EXAMPLE ( 1 - JUST ONE) of a fictitious person, place, or event in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). PERSON, PLACE OR EVENT. Cite the pertinent scripture(s) and make your case with some kind of evidence or substantiation why it's fictitious.

Logicman said:

Joseph Smith's Mormons believe in Jesus as the Son of God and that Jesus performed miracles. So go with Jesus because he has the approval of Mormons and Christians.

As for the accounts of Jesus, they are from multiple, independent eyewitnesses. The early church fathers were also UNANIMOUS that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote the Gospels that bear their names, making Matthew and John, and Peter via Mark, eyewitnesses. If you think they're just stories that might have been made up, remember that except for John, who died in old age, the other apostles were all martyred for their faith rather than deny Jesus and his resurrection.

Finally, if you think any of the Gospel accounts are fictitious, then please show me your BEST ONE EXAMPLE ( 1 - JUST ONE) of a fictitious person, place, or event in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). PERSON, PLACE OR EVENT. Cite the pertinent scripture(s) and make your case with some kind of evidence or substantiation why it's fictitious.

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Do you agree that Joseph Smith performed divine miracles like Jesus did? They were attested to by multiple Mormon "eyewitnesses." Does that make them fact? And martyrdom is irrelevant. How many Muslim martyrs have there been? Does that indicate that Islam is true and Muhammed was a prophet of God?

lwf said:

Do you agree that Joseph Smith performed divine miracles like Jesus did?

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No. FYI the devil can enable people to do miracles, and we know Mormonism is a cult, which in part is built on lies. Joseph Smith borrowed from the Bible, changed things and then inserted them in the Book of Mormon. For instance, in Isaiah 29 it's been reported that he added 16 verses, and then put it in the Book of Mormon

lwf said:

And martyrdom is irrelevant. How many Muslim martyrs have there been?

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You guys always make the same mistake. Muslim martyrs would have died believing their faith, etc., is the truth.

If Jesus was not resurrected, the Apostles would have died for a known lie. That's a huge difference. So your "martyrdom is irrelevant" is not a viable claim.