• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

[W:105] GOD HIMSELF will be with them

No. FYI the devil can enable people to do miracles, and we know Mormonism is a cult, which in part is built on lies. Joseph Smith borrowed from the Bible, changed things and then inserted them in the Book of Mormon. For instance, in Isaiah 29 it's been reported that he added 16 verses, and then put it in the Book of Mormon



You guys always make the same mistake. Muslim martyrs would have died believing their faith, etc., is the truth.

If Jesus was not resurrected, the Apostles would have died for a known lie. That's a huge difference. So your "martyrdom is irrelevant" is not a viable claim.
How is that different? If the Apostles died believing their faith that Jesus was resurrected is truth, then isn't it the same thing as Muslims who die believing their faith in Muhammed is the truth?

Your evidence for Jesus' resurrection is no different than the evidence of Muhammed or Joseph Smith's miracles. Eyewitnesses recorded them, yet you doubt these eyewitnesses' credibility because of their devotion to the "cult." I am doubting the eyewitnesses who recorded Jesus' miracles for the same reason: The eyewitnesses aren't credible due to their devotion to the person they are writing about. They have the exact same motive to lie in order to build up the legend of a charismatic leader. I don't see the difference.
 
How is that different? If the Apostles died believing their faith that Jesus was resurrected is truth, then isn't it the same thing as Muslims who die believing their faith in Muhammed is the truth?

Your evidence for Jesus' resurrection is no different than the evidence of Muhammed or Joseph Smith's miracles. Eyewitnesses recorded them, yet you doubt these eyewitnesses' credibility because of their devotion to the "cult." I am doubting the eyewitnesses who recorded Jesus' miracles for the same reason: The eyewitnesses aren't credible due to their devotion to the person they are writing about. They have the exact same motive to lie in order to build up the legend of a charismatic leader. I don't see the difference.
So, once again, how about you show me your BEST ONE EXAMPLE ( 1 - JUST ONE) of a fictitious person, place, or event in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). PERSON, PLACE OR EVENT. Cite the pertinent scripture(s) and make your case with some kind of evidence or substantiation why it's fictitious. Please follow the instructions above. Let's see that bad boy. Because if the story of Jesus is bogus like I think you believe, then it should be a piece of cake for a smart guy like you to demolish it. The bad news for you is none of you skeptics ever come up with anything compelling. You make claims, but never have any credible evidence.
 
Do you agree that Joseph Smith performed divine miracles like Jesus did? They were attested to by multiple Mormon "eyewitnesses." Does that make them fact? And martyrdom is irrelevant. How many Muslim martyrs have there been? Does that indicate that Islam is true and Muhammed was a prophet of God?

This is derailing the thread.

But you brought up something that I'd like to respond to.
It's a common faulty, ignorant argument that's been used by anti-Christians.
I'm creating a thread for it - and the rest of what you brought up - at the other section.

 
Last edited:
So, once again, how about you show me your BEST ONE EXAMPLE ( 1 - JUST ONE) of a fictitious person, place, or event in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). PERSON, PLACE OR EVENT. Cite the pertinent scripture(s) and make your case with some kind of evidence or substantiation why it's fictitious. Please follow the instructions above. Let's see that bad boy. Because if the story of Jesus is bogus like I think you believe, then it should be a piece of cake for a smart guy like you to demolish it. The bad news for you is none of you skeptics ever come up with anything compelling. You make claims, but never have any credible evidence.
I am assuming it is fiction, like you assume that the miracles of Muhammed and Joseph Smith are fiction. Can you prove they aren't?
 
I am assuming it is fiction, like you assume that the miracles of Muhammed and Joseph Smith are fiction. Can you prove they aren't?

That's a cop out. To assume it's fiction implies you had some basis in thought or evidence to bring you to that assumption. So what was it?

That also strongly implies that you haven't done your homework on the historical Jesus. Which is a common fault among skeptics and atheists. If you ever do your proper due-diligence, you wouldn't be questioning his miracles.
 
That's a cop out. To assume it's fiction implies you had some basis in thought or evidence to bring you to that assumption. So what was it?

That also strongly implies that you haven't done your homework on the historical Jesus. Which is a common fault among skeptics and atheists. If you ever do your proper due-diligence, you wouldn't be questioning his miracles.
Incorrect. I can believe that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical and influential person without believing that he was the Jewish Messiah capable of performing miracles.

Again, I posit the question to you: Do you believe that the miracles of Muhammed and Joseph Smith are historically accurate? If not, how do you determine this? Answer that question, and you will have the answer to why I believe that the miracles of Jesus of Nazareth are not historically accurate.
 
RECAP: the following have been given as evidence to show Jesus is God Himself, and the truth of the Triune God:



OP: Rev 21:3 (The title, Alpha and Omega; God and the Lamb)

Post #2 - Isaiah 45 compare with Luke 2:11, Romans 10:9, 1 Cor 8:6

Post #3 – compare Isaiah 45 with John 5:39

Post #4 – Isaiah 44:6 compare with Rev 1: 17-18, Rev 2:8

Post #5 – Isaiah 9:6

Post #6 - Isaiah 44:24 compare with John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-16

Post #7 - Colossians 1:15, John 4:24 (The invisible God becomes visible thru Jesus Christ)


Post #8 - John 1:1-3

Post #9 - John 8 tied to Isaiah 42:8

Post #10 - John 10 – how Jews understood who Jesus claimed Himself to be.



Post #11 – John 14:9 tightly tied with Colossians 1:15

Post #12 – 1 Timothy 3 :16, Philippians 2: 5-7, and Titus 2 13-14 (also tied to Post #11)

Post #13 – Hebrews 1:8-9

Post #14 - Genesis 17:17 compare with Rev 1:7-8

Post #15 - Isaiah 33:22 compare with John 14, Rev 22:12-13, James 4:12, Isaiah 40:10



Post #16 – Concept of The TRIUNE GOD (Trinity) first introduced on the very first statement in the Bible.

Post #17 – Genesis 1:1 compare with John 1:1-2

Post #18 – Why “The Word?”

Post #19 - The Spirit in Genesis 1

Post #20 – again.......Why “The Word?”



Post #21 - God is the only One who can forgive, and yet..... Mark 2:2-8, Luke 7:41-49

Post #22 - Jesus forgives as GOD HIMSELF! Mark 2:5



Post #24 - Another evidence for the TRIUNE God. Genesis 3:22

Post #25 - Genesis 11:6-7



Post #26 - Doubting Thomas recognizes God, John 20:24-29



Post #31 - CHRISTOPHANY, pre-incarnate Christ in the Old Testament, Exodus 3:1-6


Post #32 – Christophany in Judges 13




Post #34 - “I AM.” The “I Am” of Jesus Christianity compare Exodus 3:13-14 with John 8:58



Post #38 - IF God is a loving God......


Post #45 - An absolute Monotheistic statement by Jesus John 2:18-19. Also Deuteronomy 32:39


Post #46 – Jesus reverses the curse that God said no one can!


Post #48 – A rebuttal: IF Jesus is not God.....


Post#58 - Mark 2 revisited


Post #59 - God/Jesus, Redeemer and Saviour


Post #60 - The ultimate Authority Matthew 28:18


Post #62 – The Lord of the Sabbath


Post #63 – Jesus is referred to as God, Titus 2:11-14


Post #64 - Jesus is no angel! He is declared GOD! Hebrews 1:6-12, Hebrews 13:8-9





Post #65 - The Triune God, 1 Peter 1:2


Post #66 - The Triune God, Romans 8: 9-11 ***Lol! Thanks to Elvira – how ironic is that?


Post #67 - 1 Cor 2


Post #68 – John 10 gives a deep explanation


Post #69 - IF God is a living God (again).......a clearer picture.


Post #70 - Invitation to the Thirsty – compare Isaiah 55 with John 4.


Post #72 - The New Testament – we can't have it both ways!


Post #73 - John 1: 18 (Triune God)


Post #74 - The Groom and His bride


Post #78 - One True Shepherd – monotheistic statements by God (Brett McBride video)


Post #79 – Genesis 1 revisited: explanation/comparison with John 1


Post #80 – Human Sacrifice


Post #81 - The Voice of God (credit to Spartan)


Post #82 - First 3 sentences of Romans 8 about Jesus and the Spirit as One. (credit to Aimiel)


Post #86 - Matt: 28:19 (credit to it's just me)


Post #104 - Job 19:25
(credit to Logicman)


Post #108 – Philippians 2


Post #109 - Acts 20 – The Trinity


Post #111 – If Jesus is not God....


Post #113 – Immanuel – supported by John 1, Luke 1, and Matthew 1.


Post #114 - Isaiah 40:3 (credit to Jerry Shugart)


Post #115 – Facsimile! Hebrews 1:3 ***Lol! Thanks to Elvira – how ironic is that?


Post #119 - Still on facsimile.


Post #120 – On the matter of the Thief crucified with Jesus. ***Lol! Thanks to Elvira – how ironic is that?



Post #126 – John 14 – The TRINITY! ***Lol! Thanks to Elvira – how ironic is that?




Post #127 – Matthew 12 - spoken as God!


Post #128 - Collosians 2 – stating it plainly!


Post #129 - A line from Isaiah 45 nags at me!


Post #131 – Collosians 1 – another explanation!


Post #132 - Christophany! Hagar rocognizes God in the pre-incarnate Christ!





Post #133 – Precedence: God appears as a man – Genesis 18, Genesis 32


Post #135 - Going back to Hagar, in comparison with Thomas


Post #138 – Rebuttal: can't be mere expressions


Post #142 – Rebuttal


Post $145 – Rebuttal





Post #147, #148 – John 1, Romans 8 (Triune God), Matthew 10: Evidence and explanation why Jesus, God and the Spirit are so intertwined



Post #155 – An example why Jesus has got to be God: Elvira falls into the trap


Post #156 – The Power to Rebuke the devil



Post #157 – Titus 2 (God's appearance, Saviour and Redeemer)

 
continuation

RECAP: the following have been given as evidence to show Jesus is God Himself, and the truth of the Triune God:



Post #159 - In their language and lingo of the time – Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself! That's the blasphemy!

Post #160 – Comparison between Deuteronomy 32 with John 10



Post #163 - Why Jesus Has Got To Be God (Thanks to Elvira)

Post #165 - Why Jesus is Perfect.

Post #166 - Taking the thief to paradise - supporting the Triune God (thanks to Elvira)

Post #171 - John 6 shows the Triune God (thanks to Elvira)
 
Pastor Bret McBride takes us step-by-step through Luke 7, to the revelation about Jesus.



 
If GOD is the Only One who can give life, then Jesus has proven He is God when He raised the dead.
Not only did He raise the dead......but He also gave that power to His apostles.


Matthew 10

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers,
raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
 
Thank you to Elvira for this:


Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the Lord; that is my name;

my glory I give to no other,
nor my praise to carved idols.

Isaiah 48
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,

for how should my name be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another.



Just look how people have been seeking out and flocking to Jesus Christ because of His powers. They didn't understand the agenda.
Lol - even His own disciples did not fully understand!
All they knew was that Jesus can heal the sick and raise the dead! Therefore, honor and glory were bestowed to Jesus by those people.

They weren't asking God to heal them (in Jesus' name!) They were asking JESUS! They had faith in HIM! Like this woman:

Matthew 9
20 Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak.
21 She said to herself,
“If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed.”


22 Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed at that moment.


How come Jesus was taking the credit?
 
Last edited:
Still related to post #186.


John 11
4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified
through it.”


To glorify the Son IS to glorify the Father!

BECAUSE THEY'RE ONE and THE SAME!




Furthermore,


John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.


They've always shared glory!
ALWAYS!




Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the Lord; that is my name;

my glory I give to no other,
nor my praise to carved idols.

Isaiah 48
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,
for how should my name be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another.



Jesus is God.
 
Last edited:
Still related to God's glory:


Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.



God will give glory (which He claims He will not give to anyone), to the Son of Man?
And provides the Son of Man, His own glorious throne?
And all the angels are going to be NOT WITH GOD.........but, with the Son of Man?


If God is not Jesus.........does that makes any sense?
 
Still related to God's glory:



Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.



9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



If Jesus isn't God, how come God had given Him a name ABOVE EVERY NAME ...........................which seems to include even that of God?

Not only should every knee on earth and things under the earth bow down to the name of Jesus - but this also includes all things in HEAVEN!
 
Thanks to @Overitall for giving this logical point.

Matthew 28:19 does not line up with Acts 2:38 (or any other record) that says:
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
I think Peter would have known the exact command given. Odd that he omitted an important part of it.

Oddly indeed, why mention only Jesus Christ? Surely, Peter would've known about the exact command.
Peter knew there was no need to add in the name of "The Father and the Holy Spirit," because both are in Jesus Christ.
Jesus is God.



1 Cor 1:13
Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?


If Jesus is not God - that means The Father was not crucified for us.
So, why did Jesus command baptize in the Name of the Father?
 
Oddly indeed, why mention only Jesus Christ? Surely, Peter would've known about the exact command.
Peter knew there was no need to add in the name of "The Father and the Holy Spirit," because both are in Jesus Christ.
Jesus is God.
So then he is gifted God (holy ghost)? How did Jesus send the Holy spirit to the people when it was here all along? And if Jesus was fully God, what would he need the father and the Holy spirit for? And why wasn't he all knowing or all powerful?

Most importantly, why did he, as he clearly did according to your narrative, mislead the people he was supposed to guide? Why didn't he make clear he is God if being saved depends on that? Why did he fast when it is an act of worship? Why would God worship? Why did he pray? Why did he supplicate? Why did he eat? How come he learned when God is all knowing? Why can't he act alone if he is fully God? Why does he keep talking about the father that is superior to him and whom he depends on?
 
If Jesus is not God - that means The Father was not crucified for us.
So, why did Jesus command baptize in the Name of the Father?
He commanded baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

The words "in the name of God" have been prevalent among the religious for quite some time and by no means began with Jesus. In the name of the father is normal because the father is God, but to say in the name of *anything else*, is blasphemy.

Then why does it say that? Well the Bible is filled with problems like this. The more reasonable question is, why should one trust the Bible to begin with?
 
That's a cop out. To assume it's fiction implies you had some basis in thought or evidence to bring you to that assumption. So what was it
No. To assume something is true calls for evidence, believing something is not true doesn't need evidence.
 
So then he is gifted God (holy ghost)? How did Jesus send the Holy spirit to the people when it was here all along? And if Jesus was fully God, what would he need the father and the Holy spirit for? And why wasn't he all knowing or all powerful?

Most importantly, why did he, as he clearly did according to your narrative, mislead the people he was supposed to guide? Why didn't he make clear he is God if being saved depends on that? Why did he fast when it is an act of worship? Why would God worship? Why did he pray? Why did he supplicate? Why did he eat? How come he learned when God is all knowing? Why can't he act alone if he is fully God? Why does he keep talking about the father that is superior to him and whom he depends on?

This thread isn't about why God did this or why Jesus did that.
This thread is about evidences in the Bible that support the argument for the Triune God (Trinity).
Refer to the OP.

This thread will be for Scriptural verses (with explanations if needed, including cross-references with other verses), that clearly show Jesus and God are One and the Same.


Refer to post #162 for the recap of evidences given so far.
 
Last edited:
He commanded baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

The words "in the name of God" have been prevalent among the religious for quite some time and by no means began with Jesus. In the name of the father is normal because the father is God, but to say in the name of *anything else*, is blasphemy.

Then why does it say that? Well the Bible is filled with problems like this. The more reasonable question is, why should one trust the Bible to begin with?

You're missing the point.

Should you wish to pursue the issues you've brought forth, create a separate thread.
To answer them here would derail my topic.
 
Last edited:
This thread isn't about why God did this or why Jesus did that.
This thread is about evidences in the Bible that support the argument for the Triune God (Trinity).
Refer to the OP.
That's exactly what I'm addressing.
You're missing the point.

Should you wish to pursue the issues you've brought forth, create a separate thread.
To answer them here would derail my topic.
No, they're of the same topic. Precisely so. Maybe you don't feel confident enough to try and answer them. After all, they are controversies the Catholic scholars have tried to circle around for centuries.
 
No, they're of the same topic. Precisely so. Maybe you don't feel confident enough to try and answer them. After all, they are controversies the Catholic scholars have tried to circle around for centuries.

What you brought up is irrelevant! You're still missing the point.
We're not talking about common usage!


There is a reason why I said what you quoted from me (which is not complete!)
Overitall was talking about the COMMAND of Jesus Christ, which he said Peter had not followed to the letter!
Jesus' command has to do with spreading the gospel in particular - making disciples of all people!

Matthew 28
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,





Read what I was responding to.

Read the preceding part which you failed to quote!
 
Last edited:
How is that different? If the Apostles died believing their faith that Jesus was resurrected is truth, then isn't it the same thing as Muslims who die believing their faith in Muhammed is the truth?

Your evidence for Jesus' resurrection is no different than the evidence of Muhammed or Joseph Smith's miracles. Eyewitnesses recorded them, yet you doubt these eyewitnesses' credibility because of their devotion to the "cult." I am doubting the eyewitnesses who recorded Jesus' miracles for the same reason: The eyewitnesses aren't credible due to their devotion to the person they are writing about. They have the exact same motive to lie in order to build up the legend of a charismatic leader. I don't see the difference.
There is no evidence only claims Illogicman doenst understand the difference
 
How is that different? If the Apostles died believing their faith that Jesus was resurrected is truth, then isn't it the same thing as Muslims who die believing their faith in Muhammed is the truth?

If you're talking about BIBLICAL TRUTH - then no, it's not the same.
Muslims can believe what they believe is the truth much like atheists can believe what they think is the truth. That would be their own truths.

But to have what is biblical truth, you have to go to the Bible for it!
If something is a contradiction to the Bible - it is a false teaching.
Why do you think God had warned us of many false prophets? Of wolves in sheep's clothings?


What is it about Joseph Smith that makes him a false prophet?
DO YOU KNOW?

Here is one:


Finally, after 140 years, the Mormon Church itself admitted this was a false prophecy.

In order to better understand the nature of Joseph’s false prophecies we must also consider the ground rules God has given us for prophesy, and in order to do this, we must examine three additional forms of prophecy. God established “ground rules” related to prophecy. We can examine these rules to judge Joseph as a prophet:



Here are other reasons why Mormonism is different from Christianity:
Their beliefs!



Mormon Beliefs documented


Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers–not anti-Mormon writers:

  1. Book of Mormon
    1. The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461).
  2. Devil, the
    1. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
    2. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
  3. God
    1. God used to be a man on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
    2. “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans . . . ” (D&C 130:22).

more.....



What Mormons may believe is true, isn't a biblical truth.


If any of you folks would want us to discuss it further, let's create another thread for it.
Now - let's get back on topic.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom