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[W:1][W:11][W:368] Russia invades Ukraine: Live Thread

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Nomad4Ever said:
Seems like there is still a chance, especially if Finland joins.
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Anything is possible for sure. I would just be surprised given how much Finland and Sweden historically want to stay out of this crap.

Binary_Digit said:
Putin can shit in his hat and call it ice cream if he wants. A government controlled by Ukrainian people is, by definition, not a puppet government.
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Again, until you illegally install a new government of polar opposite politics.....
 
bave said:
From the revolution's own website:

"Although there were no constitutional grounds for shortening the presidential term, the new government was established in accordance with Ukrainian law."

From just a basic wiki:

The action did not follow the impeachment process as specified by the Constitution of Ukraine (which would have involved formally charging the president with a crime, a review of the charge by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, and a three-fourths majority vote – i.e. at least 338 votes in favor – by the Rada); instead, the Verkhovna Rada declared that Yanukovych "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and cited "circumstances of extreme urgency" as the reason for early elections. Oleksandr Turchynov was then voted by parliament Chairman of the Ukrainian Parliament and acting President and Prime Minister of Ukraine.
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So you've just shown that:

1. It was not illegal.
2. It was not a coup.

Glad we agree.
 
bave said:
Again, until you illegally install a new government of polar opposite politics.....
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1. It wasn't illegal.
2. It wasn't unconstitutional.
3. The only ones who "installed" anything were the Ukrainian parliament, on behalf of and in keeping with the will of the Ukrainian people. That's the exact opposite of a "puppet government."
 
I do not speak Ukranian or (German?), but in this instance, I do not think a translation is required. :LOL:

 
Binary_Digit said:
So you've just shown that:

1. It was not illegal.
2. It was not a coup.

Glad we agree.
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Did you read the same thing or is english not your native tongue?

"The action did not follow the impeachment process as specified by the Constitution of Ukraine"

If you don't follow the process of removing a government and install a new government without elections or following a replacement process, that's illegal. This was all done through a western backed revolution/coup.

Again, I am not sure where the debate here is.
 
bave said:
Did you read the same thing or is english not your native tongue?

"The action did not follow the impeachment process as specified by the Constitution of Ukraine"

If you don't follow the process of removing a government and install a new government without elections or following a replacement process, that's illegal. This was all done through a western backed revolution/coup.

Again, I am not sure where the debate here is.
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As I said in 11,945:

Was Yanukovych’s Removal Constitutional? – PONARS Eurasia

www.ponarseurasia.org www.ponarseurasia.org

The Rada did not follow, or claim to follow, the impeachment route. They passed a resolution that established that Yanukovych had removed himself from fulfilling his constitutional duties. The resolution stated that due to the fact that Yanukovych had unconstitutionally stopped fulfilling his presidential duties, the Rada was calling early presidential elections as is their right under Article 85/7. It seems that nothing in the constitution prohibits parliament from passing such a resolution, which has the full legal force of a law, according to Article 91. The speaker of the Rada signed the resolution, again in accordance with the constitution (Article 88/3).
 
bave said:
Here's the rub, the impeachment by the Ukrainian parliament was illegal because it failed to follow the constitutionally prescribed methods and steps.
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I hope that Putin is payIng you well for distributing his propaganda. You do know that your ruble is not worth the paper it is printed on, right?
 
bave said:
Anything is possible for sure. I would just be surprised given how much Finland and Sweden historically want to stay out of this crap.
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That was back when eastern Europe actually believed that being neutral would protect them from Russian interference.
 
Nomad4Ever said:
siIt was, but for a few decades it didn't really have much of a purpose.


This is a weird way of framing it. NATO didn't come to countries like Latvia begging them to join NATO, Latvia applied to join NATO. The West didn't expand NATO, in fact many countries that were already part of NATO were often hesitant to allow these smaller soviet block countries that didn't have much to offer back to NATO. For countries like Germany, the US, the UK...NATO is largely meaningless. It's the Eastern block countries for which NATO is important.

Looking at Ukraine...can you really blame the other small soviet block countries for wanting to join NATO?
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If the US was really genuine about getting out of the Cold War mentality, they would've abolished NATO after the fall of the USSR. If they actually wanted to de-escalate, they should've agreed to negotiate with Russia, and NATO proposal didnt help Ukraine in the end anyway, did it.
 
watsup said:
I hope that Putin is payIng you well for distributing his propaganda. You do know that your ruble is not worth the paper it is printed on, right?
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I wonder if it's a coincidence that he also lies for Trump? Check out his posting history.
 
ChickenTendies said:
If the US was really genuine about getting out of the Cold War mentality, they would've abolished NATO after the fall of the USSR. If they actually wanted to de-escalate, they should've agreed to negotiate with Russia, and NATO proposal didnt help Ukraine in the end anyway, did it.
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Again, NATO didn't propose anything, Ukraine was beginning talks about joining.

If Russia wanted to negotiate they negotiate with Ukraine, not NATO. And they sort of tried to, but their "diplomacy" amounted to little more than "don't join NATO or we will attack you". Which isn't really a great tactic when you are trying to convince a country to join a defensive alliance that would protect them from you.
 
ChickenTendies said:
If the US was really genuine about getting out of the Cold War mentality, they would've abolished NATO after the fall of the USSR. If they actually wanted to de-escalate, they should've agreed to negotiate with Russia, and NATO proposal didnt help Ukraine in the end anyway, did it.
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The US doesn't have the authority abolish NATO, and Russia has proven itself to be untrustworthy under Putin.
 
Binary_Digit said:
Former Russian Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev: Putin's claim of NATO's so-called aggressive expansionism is just a "conviction of convenience" because he needs a foreign enemy to blame for Russia's disastrous economy.


"NATO expansionism and/or aggression" is a bullshit excuse for this war. Period.
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Again, who is using this as an excuse? Taking about geopolitics and examining ideas is not excuse making. I notice only one person here that is using that to excuse Russia, the rest of the commentary seem like an honest tabling of hypotheticals and scenarios. Understanding how we got here is part of working toward a stronger future with greater peace. The world isn't so black and white as many seem to think.

I remember just a couple of years ago how embroiled in debate we were with Ukraine for their gratuitous support of far right political campaigns involving Trump and Manafort, and now they have had in-roads with Biden via his son... The world is connected. Nothing happens in a vacuum. There are no angels and devils. Close examination and sober second though should rule the day, but we are all so quick to assign "good" and "bad" labels and stick our heads in the sand. What an incurious lot!

I should pre-empt any attempt to strawman my position... I'm not *for* Russia invading Ukraine. Russia, in my opinion is an aggressor. This is an invasion. Russia has responsibility to answer the global community and cease aggressions. Doesn't mean I'm not curious as to how all this erupted. How each side views things... that's all.
 
Jay Falcon said:
I wonder if it's a coincidence that he also lies for Trump? Check out his posting history.
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He spends all day every day spinning Putin propaganda. The conclusion becomes quite obvious. He was simply actually trying to spin the brutal attack on the maternity ward yesterday.
 
Binary_Digit said:
The "provocations" are bullshit. Everyone in the world who has their head screwed on straight knows that no NATO nation was EVER going to be an aggressive threat to Russia.
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Just like NATO was a peaceful and noninvolved party in Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya.
Binary_Digit said:
To believe otherwise is to live in an alternate reality where a historical precedent for such a threat actually exists. NATO is only a threat to rogue nations who would wage wars of aggression to steal countries.
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The one time that article 5 was invoked, was to invade a country that had never committed any acts of war against one of the members.
Binary_Digit said:
The only threat that a West-leaning Ukraine would pose to Russia would be to halt Putin's ability to "annex" the old Soviet Union back together.
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The Soviet union is dead. No one is trying to resurrect it.
Binary_Digit said:
Don't be fooled. Putin doesn't want "buffer states" for security, he wants puppet states like Belarus for power.
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Power and security are the same thing.
 
Binary_Digit said:
The Biden administration warned Wednesday that Russia could use chemical or biological weapons in Ukraine

Britain's armed forces minister has warned Russian President Vladimir Putin that using chemical weapons in Ukraine would risk "an international response."
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This is a pre-incident indicator. It likely means that despite the Russian army having no use for chemical weapons because they are whipping the Ukrainians into submission, somehow a chemical weapon is going to be detonated. Like the hoaxes inSyria

I’m sure the CIA is already mapping which Ukranians they are going to gas for their false flag.
 
Juin said:
Nato may not be hostile to Russia today, but can you guarantee that it will not turn hostile on Russia tomorrow?
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There is no evidence its hostile. To act with aggression based on a purely speculative "what if", is wrong...and the world agrees.
Using that "logic", anyone, at any time, could be hostile, and thus warrants violent assault. <- absurd and uncivilized. You can't build a peaceful/free society with that sort of anti-reasoning.
Juin said:
The relationship between Russia and Ukrainians has become irreparably dysfunctional. There will be a divorce, in the near or distant future.
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If Russia would just not invade them, Ukraine would be doing just fine.
 
news.yahoo.com

Twitter launches version to bypass Russian restrictions

Twitter is launching a version of its site that would allow Russians to bypass the country's ban on the platform.Russians will be able to access Twitter if they download the Tor browser and use a .onion suffix at the end of the site instead of .com, The Associated Press reported.The .onion sites...
news.yahoo.com news.yahoo.com

Tworter?
 
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