Voter fraud is a myth

[Deuce]

Voter ID's, no mail-in voting (except for legitimate reasons), eliminate ballot harvesting, and a system where votes are tabulated both electronically and with a paper ballot back-up.

That would eliminate nearly all voter fraud from the public.

"There's a global pandemic and I fear for my life" is a legitimate reason. Anyone who says differently has a motive to suppress voting.

 

[OscarLevant]

Don't go away mad. It's just that you are parroting talking points and seem to have no clue that is what they are.

Even if that were true, it's irrelevant.

Let's say i'm going to a debate, I'm a candidate, and my advisor says, "talk about X, Y, and Z".

If you said, in response to my talking about X, Y, and Z.....

"those are talking points'.

Yes, they are, but that is NOT a counter argument.

Capiche?



Please provide substantive counter argument(s) to the premise of the OP.

If you think the premise of the OP has no merit, substantiate your case. Or prove it wrong, or whatever.

Just don't make vacuous claims, like 'TDS' 'that's rubbish' ( without substantiating the claim ).

 

[BrotherFease]

Voter ID's, no mail-in voting (except for legitimate reasons), eliminate ballot harvesting, and a system where votes are tabulated both electronically and with a paper ballot back-up.

That would eliminate nearly all voter fraud from the public.

Help me out with the President/GOP's view on this issue. You seem to be a big supporter of the President and the GOP.

Voter ID for In-person - All voters, no exceptions, right? Is that the viewpoint here?

I don't mind showing my ID. I do it whenever I go into a bar or buy alcohol at Wegmans. I believe that about 99% of people can show their ID. My view is there should be other options available, like finger printing, if they have no valid ID with them.

Ballot Harvesting - Does the GOP/Trump object to having family members or caregivers taking sealed envelops and putting into a post office mailbox? Is the objection purely about anybody being a "ballot harvester"?

Limited mail-in voting - What precisely does that mean? Aka "legitimate reason". What constitutes as legitimate? More over, how does one stop voter fraud from occurring by mail? What forms of verification should be provided within the absentee ballot?

 

[Jay59]

Even if that were true, it's irrelevant. Let's say i'm going to a debate, I'm a candidate, and my advisor says, "talk about X, Y, and Z". If you said, in response to my talking about X, Y, and Z....."those are talking points'. Yes, they are, but that is NOT a counter argument. Capiche?

I completely understand. You have not made a counter argument and do not intend to make one.

Please provide substantive counter argument(s) to the premise of the OP. If you think the premise of the OP has no merit, substantiate your case. Or prove it wrong, or whatever. Just don't make vacuous claims, like 'TDS' 'that's rubbish' ( without substantiating the claim ).

TDS is not rubbish. Though it is not relevant to you, specifically, it is very relevant to your sources. Mostly they avoid the issue by claiming it has not been proven in court. Taking precautions against fraud should not need proof of a prior crime. It is not like there are no accusations, after all.

There needs to be a method to ensure that:

1. each eligible voter gets exactly one ballot
2. that the voter and no one else fills out the ballot
3. that all the filled ballots are collected and counted.

These are three sticky problems and you have not even shown a plan.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

If you find any data that they have compiled to be fraudulent, then let me know... otherwise you are just making excuses for ignoring the reality that voter fraud exists.

No response to my question?

If voter fraud is “very difficult to detect” as you say, why do you think it’s a big issue?

Even if I were to accept Heritage’s data as factual, the instances of alleged voter fraud equate to a minuscule percentage of all votes, having no effect on any political race.

Can you cite (w/link, of course) any political race won or lost due to voter fraud?

 

[TurtleDude]

What i find the oddest is that the supreme court case of Bush v Gore was the FIRST time a SC case declared this case does not set precedent. The constitution leaves voting to the states. The fed has no role. Yet the lawyer who argued for Bush is no the chief justice. That is the BIGGEST voter fraud scheme ever, and no one is mentioning it.

Ted Olson argued the case for Bush, not Roberts.

 

[TurtleDude]

Prove that. Statistically. Prove it.

No one has ever been killed by a legally and privately owned assault rifle in the USA. Only two people have been murderd by a legally owned automatic weapon since the 1934 NFA was passed and both of those were submachine guns-not assault rifles (which didn't become available in the USA until around the time of the Vietnam war)

 

[TurtleDude]

You got nothing. You have no evidence that mail in balloting has had any significant level of fraud. My state has an 80% adoption of mail in voting, never had a problem here.

Sanchez-Dornan

 

[Ikari]

If you find any data that they have compiled to be fraudulent, then let me know... otherwise you are just making excuses for ignoring the reality that voter fraud exists.

If you have any data that shows that voter fraud is statistically significant, let me know....otherwise you are just making excuses for ignoring the reality that fraud doesn't sway elections.

 

[justabubba]

As a poll worker voter fraud would be very difficult by someone trying to vote that shouldn't in my area because we know everyone who is voting. I live in a rural area where everyone knows everyone. We always know if someone new moves in and is voting. Probably the only fraud I have seen is people that are brain dead being brought to the polls by someone who is helping them vote. The other possible fraud would be people coming in with a list of who to vote for. Most of these people are mentally challenged clearly. They are doing what someone has told them to do. Guess which party they belong to? Hint they are not republicans.

your post reads like one crafted with the civics understanding of a pole worker


mentally challenged for having a list of those one intends to vote for? that is quite a stupid conclusion


about as "mentally challenged" as having a shopping list at the grocery store

 

[justabubba]

Yeah, would you get on a plane if you knew that there was a 0.00005% chance of a crash?

the chance is 0.00000486494 (1/205,552)

 

[justabubba]

you are confusing facts/ In 1934 Democrats imposed onerous restrictions on a type of firearm that less than a couple hundred Americans owned legally. In the next 52 years, there were only two recorded murders with legally owned firearms of that type and yet in 1986, Democrats snuck a poison pill onto a good bill and that PP banned the future sales of those firearms. 2 murders in 52 years-and in both cases, the defendants were POLICE OFFICERS.

what you are unintentionally demonstrating is how impactful that particular gun control was
thanks for your contribution

 

[TurtleDude]

what you are unintentionally demonstrating is how impactful that particular gun control was
thanks for your contribution

what I am showing is that democrats ban things even if there is no public safety reason for doing so

 

[justabubba]

What i find the oddest is that the supreme court case of Bush v Gore was the FIRST time a SC case declared this case does not set precedent. The constitution leaves voting to the states. The fed has no role. Yet the lawyer who argued for Bush is no the chief justice. That is the BIGGEST voter fraud scheme ever, and no one is mentioning it.

[emphasis added by bubba]

i really don't understand where you are headed with those comments now emphasized. would you please flesh out where you are going with that argument

 

[OscarLevant]

I completely understand. You have not made a counter argument and do not intend to make one.


TDS is not rubbish. Though it is not relevant to you, specifically, it is very relevant to your sources. Mostly they avoid the issue by claiming it has not been proven in court. Taking precautions against fraud should not need proof of a prior crime. It is not like there are no accusations, after all.

There needs to be a method to ensure that:

1. each eligible voter gets exactly one ballot
2. that the voter and no one else fills out the ballot
3. that all the filled ballots are collected and counted.

These are three sticky problems and you have not even shown a plan.

The problem is that, out of billions of votes cast, negligible incidents of fraud have occurred. The studies I linked to prove this.

To implement voter ID, it has the practical effect of disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of voters.

In short, you have a 'fix' looking for cure, when implemented, is far worse.

This fact is fully documented in the film

Rigged, the Voter Suppression Playbook

If you are sincere about this, watch the film. If you curiosity is sufficient to want to find out about it, it's all there.

It is well documented, testimonies, of republicans, democrats, and voters at large.


"TDS" is a right wing narrative, a 'thought - terminating cliché" created for those who have weak arguments and are too lazy to rebut. It refuses to acknowledge that criticism of Trump is not done in a vacuum, and to create a one word thought terminating phrase, it was invented to kill conversations.

When someone offers legit criticism of Trump, and the 'rebuttal' is "TDS, that's a thought terminating artificial construct by those with weak arguments.

 

[justabubba]

Taking action to prevent voter fraud does NOT take away anyone's right to vote.

.

the north carolina court says you are wrong
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...13f0b8-5363-11ea-b119-4faabac6674f_story.html

 

[Jay59]

The problem is that, out of billions of votes cast, negligible incidents of fraud have occurred. The studies I linked to prove this. To implement voter ID, it has the practical effect of disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of voters. In short, you have a 'fix' looking for cure, when implemented, is far worse. This fact is fully documented in the film Rigged, the Voter Suppression Playbook
If you are sincere about this, watch the film. If you curiosity is sufficient to want to find out about it, it's all there. It is well documented, testimonies, of republicans, democrats, and voters at large. "TDS" is a right wing narrative, a 'thought - terminating cliché" created for those who have weak arguments and are too lazy to rebut. It refuses to acknowledge that criticism of Trump is not done in a vacuum, and to create a one word thought terminating phrase, it was invented to kill conversations. When someone offers legit criticism of Trump, and the 'rebuttal' is "TDS, that's a thought terminating artificial construct by those with weak arguments.

You make an excellent case against vote-by-mail. Was that your intent?

 

[beefheart]

Sanchez-Dornan

Prove it.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

your post reads like one crafted with the civics understanding of a pole worker


mentally challenged for having a list of those one intends to vote for? that is quite a stupid conclusion


about as "mentally challenged" as having a shopping list at the grocery store

I am the one who helps them work the machine. My 7 year old nephew could show them how to work the machine. Well if this person had a shopping list and I said did you get the milk they would have to look on the list to see if that was what they were supposed to get because they wouldn't even know what milk was. They are matching the letters up on the name like it was in another language. Clearly they could not have come up with the list to start with so someone is telling them who to vote for. Others just come in with that someone else and they pick out the names for them or they vote straight party for them. I really don't care because most of the candidates are running under both parties anyway or uncontested. It is more of a formality than an election as most people vote straight party. In the primaries anyone not republican or democrat need not even show up.

 

[AmNat]

Like you closed your eyes to all the proof OL posted?

Oscar did not present any "proof", he did not present any evidence at all. Blithely asserting that voter fraud is rare doesn't mean it is.

 

[marke]

Voter Fraud, as the studies show, this is clearly a myth. The stragety is to gin up fraud allegations to justify Voter ID laws.

Voter fraud is so insignificant that it does not affect the outcome of national elections.

However, Republicans voter suppression methods do affect the outcome of elections.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...le-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/

Who Can Vote? - A News21 2012 National Project

Voter fraud is not a persistent problem - Voting Wars: Rights | Power | Privilege

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ts-cast-in-the-2016-election-were-fraudulent/

http://www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/Politics_of_Voter_Fraud_Final.pdf

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/elj.2013.0231

https://www.gao.gov/assets/670/665966.pdf

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/10/29/the-voter-fraud-myth

https://digitalcommons.kennesaw.edu/facpubs/2165/

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/analysis-noncitizen-voting-vanishingly-rare

Court opinion: “only two convictions for in-person voter impersonation fraud out of 20
million votes cast in the decade” before Texas passed its law.
https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legal-work/2016.07.20_En Banc Opinion.pdf

Court opinion: “failed to identify even a single individual who has ever been charged with committing inperson voter fraud in North Carolina.”
http://electionlawblog.org/wp-content/uploads/nc-4th.pdf

Court opinion: “that impersonation fraud — the type of fraud that voter ID is designed to prevent — is extremely
rare” and “a truly isolated phenomenon that has not posed a significant threat to the integrity of
Wisconsin’s elections.”
https://www.aclu.org/legal-document...=legal-document/frank-v-walker-motion-granted

Supreme Court opinion: “contains no evidence of any [in-person voter impersonation] fraud actually
occurring in Indiana at any time in its history.” They upheld, but later, after the ruling, they stated they regretted their ruling.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-21.ZO.html


This film, "Rigged, The Voter Suppression Playbook" tells the complete tale of Republicans voter suppression techniques.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B07P76KK1S/ref=atv_dl_rdr?autoplay=1

Always with the propaganda cherry-picking, never with any refutation of "inconvenient truths" democrats do not like to talk about. If voter fraud is a myth then Jimmy Carter and thousands of others must be liars, according to democrat propagandists. Here is a sample of what the commission chaired by Carter found:

The November 2004 elections also showed that irregularities and fraud still occur. In
Washington for example where Christine Gregoire was elected
governor by a 129-vote
margin the elections superintendent of King County testified during a subsequent
unsuccessful election challenge that ineligible ex-felons had voted and that votes had been
cast in the names of the dead. However the judge accepted Gregoires victory because with
the exception of four ex-felons who admitted to voting for Dino Rossi the authorities could
not determine for whom the other illegal votes were cast. In Milwaukee Wisconsin
investigators said they found clear evidence of fraud including more than 200 cases of
felons voting illegally and more than 100 people who voted
twice used fake names or false addresses or voted in the name
of a dead person. Moreover there were 4500 more votes cast
than voters listed. One potential source of election fraud arises
from inactive or ineligible voters left on voter registration lists.
By one estimate for example there were over 181000 dead
people listed on the voter rolls in six swing states in the
November 2004 elections including almost 65000 dead people listed on the voter rolls in Florida.

https://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/litigation/documents/Veasey7848.pdf

 

[marke]

Voter Fraud, as the studies show, this is clearly a myth. The stragety is to gin up fraud allegations to justify Voter ID laws.

Voter fraud is so insignificant that it does not affect the outcome of national elections.

However, Republicans voter suppression methods do affect the outcome of elections.

Court opinion: “only two convictions for in-person voter impersonation fraud out of 20
million votes cast in the decade” before Texas passed its law.
https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legal-work/2016.07.20_En Banc Opinion.pdf

Court opinion: “failed to identify even a single individual who has ever been charged with committing inperson voter fraud in North Carolina.”
http://electionlawblog.org/wp-content/uploads/nc-4th.pdf

Court opinion: “that impersonation fraud — the type of fraud that voter ID is designed to prevent — is extremely
rare” and “a truly isolated phenomenon that has not posed a significant threat to the integrity of
Wisconsin’s elections.”
Frank v. Walker - Preliminary Injunction Motion Granted | American Civil Liberties Union

Supreme Court opinion: “contains no evidence of any [in-person voter impersonation] fraud actually
occurring in Indiana at any time in its history.” They upheld, but later, after the ruling, they stated they regretted their ruling.
CRAWFORD v. MARION COUNTY ELECTION BD.


This film, "Rigged, The Voter Suppression Playbook" tells the complete tale of Republicans voter suppression techniques.

Robot Check

Always with the propaganda cherry-picking, never with any refutation of "inconvenient truths" democrats do not like to talk about. If voter fraud is a myth then Jimmy Carter and thousands of others must be liars, according to democrat propagandists. Here is a sample of what the commission chaired by Carter found:

The November 2004 elections also showed that irregularities and fraud still occur. In
Washington for example where Christine Gregoire was elected
governor by a 129-vote
margin the elections superintendent of King County testified during a subsequent
unsuccessful election challenge that ineligible ex-felons had voted and that votes had been
cast in the names of the dead. However the judge accepted Gregoires victory because with
the exception of four ex-felons who admitted to voting for Dino Rossi the authorities could
not determine for whom the other illegal votes were cast. In Milwaukee Wisconsin
investigators said they found clear evidence of fraud including more than 200 cases of
felons voting illegally and more than 100 people who voted
twice used fake names or false addresses or voted in the name
of a dead person. Moreover there were 4500 more votes cast
than voters listed. One potential source of election fraud arises
from inactive or ineligible voters left on voter registration lists.
By one estimate for example there were over 181000 dead
people listed on the voter rolls in six swing states in the
November 2004 elections including almost 65000 dead people listed on the voter rolls in Florida.

https://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/litigation/documents/Veasey7848.pdf

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Oscar did not present any "proof", he did not present any evidence at all.

Get your eyes checked.

 

[Deuce]

If you have any data that shows that voter fraud is statistically significant, let me know....otherwise you are just making excuses for ignoring the reality that fraud doesn't sway elections.

He actually already posted the data and it showed that he was hilariously wrong.

It was 1200-something cases over 20 years. (so, out of about a billion votes cast)

And only thirteen of those votes were in-person voter impersonation, the only type of voter fraud that voter ID laws stop.

 

[TurtleDude]

18K PLUS DECEASED VOTERS MAILED BALLOTS IN CLARK COUNTY | 360NewsLasVegas.com

we will see more and more of this as we near the election