Violence in Paris

[Divine_Wind]

The interesting thing about this is to note when in our history this division was at its greatest and when it was at its healthiest. I'm tired of hearing it myself, but there is a race ingredient to it.

Sorry, but I fail to see your point; the differences between Hamilton and Jefferson were the power of the State vs. the power of the Individual, not race. Sure, there were racial factors, but there were also gender, religious and financial factors.

 

[Fletch]

Macron is not a socialist, he's a centrist. Unlike in the U.S. and other countries, party affiliation is a paid membership. Macron stopped paying his dues to the Socialist Party at least 10 years ago. He was an investment banker, which is capitalistic by definition. Of course, he's going to be pro-business, pro-markets. Not all French are socialists, there's many different political movements in Europe, just check out what Steve Bannon has been up to. Macron ran on a pro business platform and proposed deregulation, cutting spending and taxes, and other domestic policy that sound downright conservative to us. Of course, he’s no conservative, he’s socially and culturally very progressive. That’s what a European liberal means.

He seems to be a leftist who understand the importance of a somewhat vibrant business sector. I dont know that is as much conservative as it is just simple common sense. If taxing and regulating business out of existence is left wing then everyone should oppose that. My initial objection was to the idea that Frances current problems are the result of capitalism. Thats just absurd.

 

[MSgt]

Lets see if you can think this through....

Oh, no. Let us first start with the simple fact before you flounder about in your non-fact based partisan imaginations and false ideologies:

In a country where protests are often tightly managed by one political party or trade union, this is a movement with no recognized national leader, no formal structure or affiliation, which unites voters of all ages, from the far-left, the far-right, even those who once supported President Macron.

These are not France's most marginalized citizens, but those who say they struggle even while working, who feel they're bearing the brunt of France's economic problems, while businesses and the rich get tax breaks.

Do you understand what this simple fact means? Do you understand what a spectrum wide protest means? It means that this is very much an economic protest where they are all recognizing that they have all been bent over by those who have managed to buy government. This is unlike the "Occupy Wall Street" in America, where brain-washed conservative watch dogs for the wealthy turned it political so that the wealthy could find comfort while bending over even their conservative watch dogs.

What is happening in France is clearly not about more socialism. It is about the wealth of the nation escaping their responsibilities and leaving the tax burden to the rest who are seeing more and more taxes placed upon them. And as I stated, this is a historical familiarity that saw European populations swerve into fascism and communism during the Great Depression. This too, is a fact. When people toss out the cliche that "Those Who Do Not Learn History Are Doomed To Repeat It" you may want to understand what that phrase actually might mean. History does not repeat itself. But human beings, even across cultures and eras, often make the same stupid mistakes.


NOW...you may fly off into what "we have been hearing about how 'the rich get richer'" in order to cling to your partisan imaginations and false ideologies. You may ignore that the creation of the 1%, which came from Trickle-Down economics, is proof that the rich do indeed get richer. You may also go on to ignore the fact that a permanent tax-cut to the wealthiest elite, paired with an increase in government spending which pushes the country further into debt, not only makes the rich richer, but also presents the rest of us with the burden.

And because I am an asshole at times, arrogant much of the time, ridiculously smart and on scotch, I will go further. Our corporations, in many industries, have historically benefited from encouraging military deployment and wars to protect their interests. This is historically recorded across the Middle East, North Africa, Europe, Asia, and South America. And for the price of blood, these corporations and wealthy handlers have created a government that help them avoid their tax responsibilities. For them and their wealthy handlers to buy politicians who increasingly create ways for them to avoid taxes, is an absolute insult to our troops. For a bunch of conservatives and "libertarians," you people really have a hard time transcending your broken ideologies to see truth. You people weren't this blind during the Great Depression or the Great Recession when bailed-out banks and corporations were seizing people's homes and rewarding CEOs.

 

[Fletch]

Oh, no. Let us first start with the simple fact before you flounder about in your non-fact based partisan imaginations and false ideologies:



Do you understand what this simple fact means? Do you understand what a spectrum wide protest means? It means that this is very much an economic protest where they are all recognizing that they have all been bent over by those who have managed to buy government. This is unlike the "Occupy Wall Street" in America, where brain-washed conservative watch dogs for the wealthy turned it political so that the wealthy could find comfort while bending over even their conservative watch dogs.

What is happening in France is clearly not about more socialism. It is about the wealth of the nation escaping their responsibilities and leaving the tax burden to the rest who are seeing more and more taxes placed upon them. And as I stated, this is a historical familiarity that saw European populations swerve into fascism and communism during the Great Depression. This too, is a fact. When people toss out the cliche that "Those Who Do Not Learn History Are Doomed To Repeat It" you may want to understand what that phrase actually might mean. History does not repeat itself. But human beings, even across cultures and eras, often make the same stupid mistakes.


NOW...you may fly off into what "we have been hearing about how 'the rich get richer'" in order to cling to your partisan imaginations and false ideologies. You may ignore that the creation of the 1%, which came from Trickle-Down economics, is proof that the rich do indeed get richer. You may also go on to ignore the fact that a permanent tax-cut to the wealthiest elite, paired with an increase in government spending which pushes the country further into debt, not only makes the rich richer, but also presents the rest of us with the burden.

And because I am an asshole at times, arrogant much of the time, ridiculously smart and on scotch, I will go further. Our corporations, in many industries, have historically benefited from encouraging military deployment and wars to protect their interests. This is historically recorded across the Middle East, North Africa, Europe, Asia, and South America. And for the price of blood, these corporations and wealthy handlers have created a government that help them avoid their tax responsibilities. For them and their wealthy handlers to buy politicians who increasingly create ways for them to avoid taxes, is an absolute insult to our troops. For a bunch of conservatives and "libertarians," you people really have a hard time transcending your broken ideologies to see truth. You people weren't this blind during the Great Depression or the Great Recession when bailed-out banks and corporations were seizing people's homes and rewarding CEOs.

What is the top tax rate in France right now?

 

[MSgt]

Sorry, but I fail to see your point; the differences between Hamilton and Jefferson were the power of the State vs. the power of the Individual, not race. Sure, there were racial factors, but there were also gender, religious and financial factors.

Yeah, I kind of don't want to get into it because people get irrationally pissed:

- The Three-Fifths Compromise was a compromise reached among state delegates in 1787 and allowed for the Constitution to bring the country together. Without the Compromise, there would be no unity.

- Increasing tensions between the North and the South over slavery in newly acquired territory and the creation of new states eventually led to the Civil War. During the Reconstruction period (1865–1877), federal laws forced civil rights protections in the South.

- As Democrats regained power (through election rigging) it became increasingly difficult to get past political gridlock. And in the 1876 election there was a dispute between Hayes (R) and Tilden (D). So, in the Compromise of 1877, the Democratic Party agreed to allow Hayes with the promise that the federal government withdraw the last of the federal troops from the South. This effectively ended the Reconstruction period and opened the door for Jim Crow.

- From here and throughout most of the twentieth century, the Democratic and Republican Parties were more like big tents in which liberals and conservatives were found in each. This allowed for great compromise and a reaching across the aisle.

- Then came the Civil Rights Movement in which liberals found themselves increasingly within the Democrat camp and white Christians conservatives found themselves forming the base of the GOP.

And where are we today? A movement like BLM has drawn clear partisan division between liberals and conservatives...and Democrats and Republicans. So, it seems clear to me that whenever race has been placed on the political table, our people draw sides and dig in. Much of our more collaborative periods between the Parties seem to coincide with an acceptance of inequality.

 

[MSgt]

What is the top tax rate in France right now?

According to Mr. Google, there are five income tax rates in France:

Income Share = Tax Rate

Up to €9,964 = 0%
Between €9,964 - €27,519 = 14%
Between €27,519 - €73,779 = 30%
Between €73,779 - €156,224 = 41%
Above €156,224 = 45%

So...45%?


You weren't about to go into the fiasco of France's once 75% "Supertax" that was a clear mistake were you?

 

[Divine_Wind]

Yeah, I kind of don't want to get into it because people get irrationally pissed:

- The Three-Fifths Compromise was a compromise reached among state delegates in 1787 and allowed for the Constitution to bring the country together. Without the Compromise, there would be no unity.

- Increasing tensions between the North and the South over slavery in newly acquired territory and the creation of new states eventually led to the Civil War.

- During the Reconstruction period (1865–1877), federal laws forced civil rights protections in the South. As Democrats regained power (through election rigging) it became increasingly difficult to get past political gridlock.

- In 1877, a national Democratic Party compromise to gain Southern support in the presidential election resulted in the government's withdrawing the last of the federal troops from the South. This effectively opened the door for Jim Crow.

- From here and throughout most of the twentieth century, the Democratic and Republican Parties were more like big tents in which liberals and conservatives were found in each. This allowed for great compromise and a reaching across the aisle.

- Then came the Civil Rights Movement in which liberals found themselves increasingly within the Democrat camp and white Christians conservatives found themselves forming the base of the GOP.

And where are we today? A movement like BLM has drawn clear partisan division between liberals and conservatives...and Democrats and Republicans. So, it seems clear to me that whenever race has been placed on the political table, our people draw sides and dig in. Much of our more collaborative periods between the Parties seem to coincide with an acceptance of inequality.

Agreed 100% with your historical references but not all of your political conclusions.

You are absolutely correct that race plays a part in US politics, but unlike you, I think it’s more about the Left fanning the flames than the Right. OTOH, the recent use of RW tactics to disenfranchise voters is very disturbing and, IMO, racial in nature but mostly political. In short, they aren’t using the tactics because they think whites are superior but because they think the tactics will allow them to win. UnAmerican? Yes. Racist? Not necessarily so.

 

[MSgt]

Agreed 100% with your historical references but not all of your political conclusions.

You are absolutely correct that race plays a part in US politics, but unlike you, I think it’s more about the Left fanning the flames than the Right. OTOH, the recent use of RW tactics to disenfranchise voters is very disturbing and, IMO, racial in nature but mostly political. In short, they aren’t using the tactics because they think whites are superior but because they think the tactics will allow them to win. UnAmerican? Yes. Racist? Not necessarily so.

Ah, you are talking about Democrats exploiting racism as a means to brand political opposition. I'll agree with that.

But I don't know about that on a broader or institutional level. I think that the Left has merely gotten fed up and the Right prefers it when the Left was more accepting of it.

- Let's just move past the general anti-gay in military and marriage that has long existed among the Right in which the DADT compromise was the lame result. (there's that word again).

- Let's just move past the fact that the white-supremacists and Nazi-wannabes have long sat comfortably within the Right's camp, whether under a former Democratic Party's umbrella or today's Republican Party's umbrella.

Race among the Right has recently become such an issue that the Supreme Court had to weigh in just to protect national democracy:

2013: The U.S. Supreme Court declined to reinstate North Carolina's strict voter ID law, which was struck down in 2012 after a court ruled that it was intentionally designed to stop African-Americans from voting. In its ruling, the appeals court said the law was intentionally designed to discriminate against black people. North Carolina legislators had requested data on voting patterns by race and, with that data in hand, drafted a law that would "target African-Americans with almost surgical precision," the court said.

This was the GOP; and this was most certainly election rigging based on race. There are other examples. And when it came to Donald Trump's rallies in 2016, it was most certainly he who the alt-Right showed up for and found comfort, especially through the appointment of Steve Bannon. So when liberals point to the Right and declare racism, I don't think the Right has a lot of room to deny and defend by declaring that the Left is just fanning their existing flame. The flame was there for all to see and it was Obama African "birther" nonsense and Trump's 2016 campaign that fanned it. Perhaps, the Right should take note of this history and clean their house, of which has long entertained the presence of white supremacists and Nazi wannabes. The Left did not create that. The Right has, for too long, tolerated and ignored in the hopes that the Left will ignore too. And according to the Supreme Court, it is affecting our unity.

 

[Bullseye]

There is plenty of diesel fuel.

Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk

How they doin' on gasoline?

 

[PeteEU]

How they doin' on gasoline?

Plenty of that too.

 

[Bullseye]

Plenty of that too.

Then why the rising taxes? Maybe to fund more socialist/socialist-lite programs? Kinda been my point all along.

 

[PeteEU]

Then why the rising taxes? Maybe to fund more socialist/socialist-lite programs? Kinda been my point all along.

Well... behaviour modification is one reason, and of course more money for the state. France, like many European countries, have stated they want to get rid of the diesel and gasoline cars by 2040.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...petrol-diesel-cars-2040-emmanuel-macron-volvo

On top of that, it has been policy for a very long time to give incentives to buy better fuel efficient cars and that has been tackled by raising fuel prices, but also forcing car companies to produce more and more efficient cars.

Now saying that, the people protesting today, also protested in 2008-9 over high fuel prices so this stuff aint anything new in France. A couple of weeks ago it was the farmers dumping cow **** on roads and other stuff. The French like Greeks, just love to protest and often get "violent" in American eyes.

 

[Fletch]

According to Mr. Google, there are five income tax rates in France:

Income Share = Tax Rate

Up to €9,964 = 0%
Between €9,964 - €27,519 = 14%
Between €27,519 - €73,779 = 30%
Between €73,779 - €156,224 = 41%
Above €156,224 = 45%

So...45%?


You weren't about to go into the fiasco of France's once 75% "Supertax" that was a clear mistake were you?

So they tried to soak the rich with their 75% tax rate and it was a disaster. Half the population of France pays $0 in income tax and the rich pay half thier income. So what is the problem and why hasnt socialism solved it by now?

 

[Fletch]

Well... behaviour modification is one reason, and of course more money for the state. France, like many European countries, have stated they want to get rid of the diesel and gasoline cars by 2040.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...petrol-diesel-cars-2040-emmanuel-macron-volvo

On top of that, it has been policy for a very long time to give incentives to buy better fuel efficient cars and that has been tackled by raising fuel prices, but also forcing car companies to produce more and more efficient cars.

Now saying that, the people protesting today, also protested in 2008-9 over high fuel prices so this stuff aint anything new in France. A couple of weeks ago it was the farmers dumping cow **** on roads and other stuff. The French like Greeks, just love to protest and often get "violent" in American eyes.

Why are fuel taxes so high in France? The price of oil is quite low and the price of gas here is quite low.

 

[PeteEU]

Why are fuel taxes so high in France? The price of oil is quite low and the price of gas here is quite low.

You should be asking why fuel taxes are so low in the US... it is in the medium and long term not a good thing.

 

[Fletch]

You should be asking why fuel taxes are so low in the US... it is in the medium and long term not a good thing.

There is no reason for fuel taxes to be high. Thats why the French are rioting.

 

[PeteEU]

There is no reason for fuel taxes to be high. Thats why the French are rioting.

Of course there is... but you yanks dont understand such things... which is why the pain of high gas prices always hits you so much harder than anyone else and your enemies know this. That is why you waste so much energy and resources relative to your population size..

European policy has been for decades to ween of oil. Now you can do it the hard way when it is too late.. aka the American way, or you can do it gradually over time which is what the Europeans do. That is why many nations have stated that they want to ban petrol and diesel cars by a certain date.

Yes fuel duty is high but guess what.. use less fuel. How do you do that? Oh I dont know.. maybe get a car that goes further than 10 miles per gallon? Or maybe walk on short distances? Or take the train or bus? Or shock horror.. get an electric car!

Again high fuel prices.. yes they are a revenue engine for the government, but they also have a behavioural aspect that is just as important if not more important in the long run.

 

[MSgt]

So they tried to soak the rich with their 75% tax rate and it was a disaster. Half the population of France pays $0 in income tax and the rich pay half thier income. So what is the problem and why hasnt socialism solved it by now?

They tried and then quickly learned that tax rates that go above 50% tend to hurt GDP and push the capital out.

This is exactly why I tell you to place facts before your ideology. The U.S. has economic issues. Why hasn't capitalism solved it by now? This is not a socialism issue and I suspect that you keep merging that word into communism:

- Despite the government playing a significant role in the economy, France has a widely liberalized economy. <---capitalism.

- France has the world's 6th largest economy in the world.

- With 28 of the 500 biggest companies of the world in 2018, France ranks 5th in the Fortune Global 500, behind the USA, China, Japan and Germany.

- France is the world's sixth largest agricultural producer and EU's leading agricultural power

- The French are among the least indebted populations in the developed world.

- There are 1.617 million millionaire households in France.



As for their problems? There are plenty of bad decisions, consequences, and repercussions involved:

- Let's get this one out of the way now: France is full of French people who like to protest about everything at the drop of a hat. They also like sitting around on their asses. Moving on...

- According to the economist Paul Krugman, the French have a lower workforce participation rate and "when they work, they work fewer hours." Along the way to building their nation during the Cold War, they made "different choices about retirement and leisure" than other countries in Europe and the U.S.

- In 1999, Keynesian economists sought out different solutions to the unemployment issue in France, and their theories led to the introduction of the 35-hour workweek law. But this led to the reality that less hours was insufficient to earn a living. This stressed their social programs well before the Great Recession threatened to completely break them.

- By 2012, it became apparent that France now had a "floating generation" that formed part of the 14 million unemployed young Europeans. Anne Sonnet, a senior economist studying unemployment claimed that nearly two million young people in France had given up looking for employment at that time, while French labour minister Michel Sapin said that 82% of people hired were only on temporary contracts. Sapin further explained that the challenge at that time was to create a more flexible system, in which greater trust existed between unions and companies, and "partial unemployment" was accommodated during difficult periods. The so-called floating generation was attributed to an allegedly dysfunctional system: "an elitist educational tradition that does not integrate graduates into the work force, a rigid labour market that is hard to enter for newcomers, and a tax system that makes it expensive for companies to hire full-time employees and both difficult and expensive to lay them off."

- Everyday, about 80,000 French citizens are commuting to work in neighboring Luxembourg, making it the biggest cross-border workforce group in the whole of the European Union. They are attracted by much higher wages for the different job groups than in their own country and the lack of skilled labor in the booming Luxembourgian economy.


* Along the way, companies were getting fatter because labor was increasingly less in participation and in 35-hour work week, and there has been no real incentive to expand business and create jobs. Economic disparity has become an issue. In the meantime, and in accordance to the current protests, the rich have managed to create many loop holes for themselves. And with France boasting 1.617 million millionaire households, this means even more stress on the social programs because they are escaping their responsibilities. This is why the current protests show the entire spectrum in the streets.

 

[JustHanging]

Feels like the entirety of Europe, sans Poland, is headed for a war between liberals and conservatives. Just like here.

Yeah, that will be what they'll tell the conservatives. As Trump has shown, scaring conservatives is both easy, and effective in making political gain.

 

[Fletch]

Of course there is... but you yanks dont understand such things... which is why the pain of high gas prices always hits you so much harder than anyone else and your enemies know this. That is why you waste so much energy and resources relative to your population size..

European policy has been for decades to ween of oil. Now you can do it the hard way when it is too late.. aka the American way, or you can do it gradually over time which is what the Europeans do. That is why many nations have stated that they want to ban petrol and diesel cars by a certain date.

Yes fuel duty is high but guess what.. use less fuel. How do you do that? Oh I dont know.. maybe get a car that goes further than 10 miles per gallon? Or maybe walk on short distances? Or take the train or bus? Or shock horror.. get an electric car!

Again high fuel prices.. yes they are a revenue engine for the government, but they also have a behavioural aspect that is just as important if not more important in the long run.

Thats idiotic. But you europeans seem to love the idea of someone else telling you how to live your lives

 

[Fletch]

Yeah, that will be what they'll tell the conservatives. As Trump has shown, scaring conservatives is both easy, and effective in making political gain.

Really? He hasnt frightened me, so maybe you just dont know what you are talking about.

 

[Divine_Wind]

Thats idiotic. But you europeans seem to love the idea of someone else telling you how to live your lives

Agreed, but that's cultural. They've spent centuries bowing down to monarchies, many still do, or dictators. The US is an anomaly because we revolted and threw out our king. The French did too but then lapsed back into a dictatorship. Same for the Russians after the Soviet Union collapsed; they were free for a few years but then lapsed back to letting someone tell them what to do.

 

[Herkamer63]

Higher gas prices are only a small reason as to why there are riots going on. The MAIN reason is because of the CARBON tax that Macron is implementing and how it'll get higher every year. In other words, the "climate change" (communist) policies are what's having the French people all up in arms, and rightfully so (minus the violence and property destruction). If I remember correctly, the tax will be 30.5 euros per metric ton (in France, if I'm not mistaken), where as regular gasoline would be 0.07 euros per gallon and diesel at 0.09 euros per gallon by 2020. So, in a way, gas prices are really not the concern, it's how the carbon tax is going to played out. Measuring it out by metric tons? There's no way something like that can be calculated properly. Macron doesn't know how to calculate. He's just a mindless cultist of climate change and that's all he is. And don't let the Left convince you that it can because they don't know how to either.

The only reason French lawmakers are doing this is because this carbon tax will bring down what's left of capitalism in their country, and here's part of their hit list:

-Private Sector
-Choice of vehicles
-Choice of career
-Choice of clothes
-Choice of schooling
-Good Healthcare (can only go to government hospitals)
-Speech (if you need to take out opposition)

So again, don't be misled about this story. Gas prices always go up and down, but in this case, there is another reason why the prices are going up (possibly a permanent rise): That is it has to deal with an unethical, immoral tax set to appease environmental, communist whack jobs who dedicate their lives to being apocalyptic acolytes to some lunatic fringe religion that says humans are demons, and a way for globalist politicians to try and destroy capitalism by using those same cultists as slaves to push their agenda. And these same globalist politicians know that man made climate change is bull $#!+, they've admitted to it on more than one occasion, but it's never reported because those confessions are usually found in small sections of business magazines and newspaper articles. Let's wise up and see what's really going on.

 

[Moderate Right]

The problem with pissing on Margaret Thatcher’s grave is that eventually you run out of piss.

The problem with pissing on everything Trump is that eventually you run out of piss.

 

[Bodi]

It started off as a fuel protest against the soaring price of diesel gasoline. It has turned into something more such as pension payments not making ends meet and the rising cost of living. All the anger is directed at President Macron who has pledged to reform the economy. People in France are calling for Macron's resignation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46328439


France fuel protests: Police in Paris fire tear gas

Police in Paris have used tear gas and water cannon to disperse protesters, in a second weekend of demonstrations sparked by rising fuel prices.

Violence erupted on the Champs-Elysées as protesters tried to get through a security cordon around sensitive sites.

About 5,000 protesters had converged on the avenue. At least 18 people were arrested after clashing with police.

Organisers of the "yellow jacket" movement billed the latest protests as "act two" in their rolling campaign.

Named after their distinctive high-visibility attire, the protesters oppose an increase in fuel duty on diesel.

Finally... the French are gonna fight a war against the only foe they can defeat... other French.