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Violence in Paris

HumblePi

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It started off as a fuel protest against the soaring price of diesel gasoline. It has turned into something more such as pension payments not making ends meet and the rising cost of living. All the anger is directed at President Macron who has pledged to reform the economy. People in France are calling for Macron's resignation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46328439


France fuel protests: Police in Paris fire tear gas

Police in Paris have used tear gas and water cannon to disperse protesters, in a second weekend of demonstrations sparked by rising fuel prices.

Violence erupted on the Champs-Elysées as protesters tried to get through a security cordon around sensitive sites.

About 5,000 protesters had converged on the avenue. At least 18 people were arrested after clashing with police.

Organisers of the "yellow jacket" movement billed the latest protests as "act two" in their rolling campaign.

Named after their distinctive high-visibility attire, the protesters oppose an increase in fuel duty on diesel.

ap-18328555876676-7bfcb5dbdbd795be1141ce1ded24029d7adcb28a-s1100.jpg
 

Bullseye

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It started off as a fuel protest against the soaring price of diesel gasoline. It has turned into something more such as pension payments not making ends meet and the rising cost of living. All the anger is directed at President Macron who has pledged to reform the economy. People in France are calling for Macron's resignation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46328439


France fuel protests: Police in Paris fire tear gas

Police in Paris have used tear gas and water cannon to disperse protesters, in a second weekend of demonstrations sparked by rising fuel prices.

Violence erupted on the Champs-Elysées as protesters tried to get through a security cordon around sensitive sites.

About 5,000 protesters had converged on the avenue. At least 18 people were arrested after clashing with police.

Organisers of the "yellow jacket" movement billed the latest protests as "act two" in their rolling campaign.

Named after their distinctive high-visibility attire, the protesters oppose an increase in fuel duty on diesel.

ap_18328555876676-7bfcb5dbdbd795be1141ce1ded24029d7adcb28a-s1100-c85.jpg
The pis troblem with Socialism and Socialism-lite is that the you eventually run out of other people's money. With kind acknowledge to the memory of Margaret Thatcher.
 

Skeptic Bob

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“Yellow jackets”? So they are both violent AND safety conscious. :)
 

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Feels like the entirety of Europe, sans Poland, is headed for a war between liberals and conservatives. Just like here.
 

MSgt

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The pis troblem with Socialism and Socialism-lite is that the you eventually run out of other people's money. With kind acknowledge to the memory of Margaret Thatcher.

Oh, god. Give the cliche a rest.

This is France. They protest and riot over the price of cheese. Despite how some politician might exploit this to mean something it really doesn't, this has nothing to do with the concept of socialism.
 
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MSgt

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Feels like the entirety of Europe, sans Poland, is headed for a war between liberals and conservatives. Just like here.

Well, if anything, there will be an overwhelming amount of petrified conservatives behaving like morons against a few leftists while the rest of us roll our eyes.
 

Kobie

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The pis troblem with Socialism and Socialism-lite is that the you eventually run out of other people's money. With kind acknowledge to the memory of Margaret Thatcher.

The problem with pissing on Margaret Thatcher’s grave is that eventually you run out of piss.
 

Bullseye

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Oh, god. Give the cliche a rest.

This is France. They protest and riot over the price of cheese. Despite how some politician might exploit this to mean something it really doesn't, this has nothing to do with the concept of socialism.
LOL, Au contraire, Mon Frere. A common problem of socialism is inability to provide adequate supply of essential items, e.g. diesel fuel.
 

MSgt

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LOL, Au contraire, Mon Frere. A common problem of socialism is inability to provide adequate supply of essential items, e.g. diesel fuel.


Well, a common problem with wax melting is heat. But let's stick to the issue, rather than your own personal need to quantify your disdain for socialism (while mixing in communism) and and employ what I like to the call the facts of the actual issue:

- Supply is not the issue. The protests initially focused on a rise in a fuel duty on diesel and it came from drivers.

- ...but there's not much that unites the "yellow vests" beyond their high-visibility gear and their anger at rising taxes and living costs.

- These are not France's most marginalized citizens, but those who say they struggle even while working, who feel they're bearing the brunt of France's economic problems, while businesses and the rich get tax breaks.

Clearly, this is a capitalism issue where those with money (the swamp) have managed to dictate to politicians how the economy is going to work best for them at the expense of the wider population, who do the heavy lifting. You know, the sort of nonsense that would create a 1% in America. Or like giving the American people a massive tax-break in late 2017 where the wealthy are the greatest benefactors and some even get permanent cuts. Add in a significant increase in government spending a couple months later in early 2018 and we can start to see how those who do the heavy lifting in the population are eventually going to get bent over.

There is a reason that FDR and Churchill recognized that a measure of socialism was necessary to protect capitalism and democracy from the rise of communism and fascism. It's because of this crap that democracy and capitalism failed across Europe throughout the Interwar years. And it is because of this that both nation's leaders introduced social systems,rather than communist systems, within their democracies and capitalist economies.
 

RetiredUSN

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It started off as a fuel protest against the soaring price of diesel gasoline. It has turned into something more such as pension payments not making ends meet and the rising cost of living. All the anger is directed at President Macron who has pledged to reform the economy. People in France are calling for Macron's resignation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46328439


France fuel protests: Police in Paris fire tear gas

Police in Paris have used tear gas and water cannon to disperse protesters, in a second weekend of demonstrations sparked by rising fuel prices.

Violence erupted on the Champs-Elysées as protesters tried to get through a security cordon around sensitive sites.

About 5,000 protesters had converged on the avenue. At least 18 people were arrested after clashing with police.

Organisers of the "yellow jacket" movement billed the latest protests as "act two" in their rolling campaign.

Named after their distinctive high-visibility attire, the protesters oppose an increase in fuel duty on diesel.

ap-18328555876676-7bfcb5dbdbd795be1141ce1ded24029d7adcb28a-s1100.jpg

Government programs require the generation of funds.

What is it that these morons don't get?
 

PeteEU

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LOL, Au contraire, Mon Frere. A common problem of socialism is inability to provide adequate supply of essential items, e.g. diesel fuel.
There is plenty of diesel fuel.

Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk
 

Manc Skipper

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They are protesting because Macron isn't socialist enough. He came in as someone who would turn the country around after years of conservative rule, then dished up more of the same.
 

MSgt

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They are protesting because Macron isn't socialist enough. He came in as someone who would turn the country around after years of conservative rule, then dished up more of the same.

Not exactly. It's not as simple as complaining for more socialism:

The spark for the protest is clear, but there's not much that unites the "yellow vests" beyond their high-visibility gear and their anger at rising taxes and living costs.

In a country where protests are often tightly managed by one political party or trade union, this is a movement with no recognized national leader, no formal structure or affiliation, which unites voters of all ages, from the far-left, the far-right, even those who once supported President Macron.

Their new co-operation is a sign that Mr Macron has failed to restore their faith in politicians, and that deep divisions remain. These are not France's most marginalized citizens, but those who say they struggle even while working, who feel they're bearing the brunt of France's economic problems, while businesses and the rich get tax breaks.


It's less about the demand for more socialism and more about how the wealthy and the politicians have created an economic order, where the rich are privileged out of paying taxes, leaving the rest to suck wind. Americans may empathize:

- Bailing out banks and corporations, after they created the Great Recession, only to see them seize homes and small businesses anyway and reward CEOs for doing it?

- The creation of a 1%?

- A 2017 massive tax-cut engineered to feed the wealthy with permanent cuts, complimented with a significant increase in government spending?

All of this contributes to the "swamp" in which so many conservatives hired a silver-spooned elitist to "drain." Ironic. What the French are protesting about (as if they ever need a real reason) is not that unfamiliar to the current situation in America. Except the French have experienced social systems within a welfare state that was long over-burdened even before the recent MENA immigrant wave.

And it certainly is not unfamiliar to history. This is what led so many Europeans to lose faith in democracy and capitalism during the Interwar years as they embraced Communism and Fascism as a means to "fix" their economic problems. Waiting to lead the people into the "fix" were far-right and far-left organizations, all preaching anti-capitalism, anti-democracy, social order, and the recovery of national pride. Why do you think FDR, Chamberlain, and Churchill implemented social programs in America and Great Britain, respectively? Aside from actually caring about the suffering of the Great Depression, tt was very much about preserving faith in the globalizing democratic and capitalist system that so many Germans and others were rebelling against.
 
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Dutch Uncle

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It started off as a fuel protest against the soaring price of diesel gasoline. It has turned into something more such as pension payments not making ends meet and the rising cost of living. All the anger is directed at President Macron who has pledged to reform the economy. People in France are calling for Macron's resignation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46328439


France fuel protests: Police in Paris fire tear gas

Police in Paris have used tear gas and water cannon to disperse protesters, in a second weekend of demonstrations sparked by rising fuel prices.

Violence erupted on the Champs-Elysées as protesters tried to get through a security cordon around sensitive sites.

About 5,000 protesters had converged on the avenue. At least 18 people were arrested after clashing with police.

Organisers of the "yellow jacket" movement billed the latest protests as "act two" in their rolling campaign.

Named after their distinctive high-visibility attire, the protesters oppose an increase in fuel duty on diesel.

ap-18328555876676-7bfcb5dbdbd795be1141ce1ded24029d7adcb28a-s1100.jpg
IMO, the real problem here is the cost of socialism. The French are used to protesting for higher wages and the government just giving it to them to shut up. Now prices are so high that both sides have hit a ceiling; if the government pays more, they become insolvent, if the workers don’t get more they start burning down the country.
 

Dutch Uncle

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The pis troblem with Socialism and Socialism-lite is that the you eventually run out of other people's money. With kind acknowledge to the memory of Margaret Thatcher.
Balls on accurate.
 

Dutch Uncle

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Feels like the entirety of Europe, sans Poland, is headed for a war between liberals and conservatives. Just like here.


War? No. Dissent? Yes. However, history proves that these conflicts have always existed. The disagreement between left and right has existed since Hamilton and Jefferson.
 

Dutch Uncle

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Not exactly. It's not as simple as complaining for more socialism:




It's less about the demand for more socialism and more about how the wealthy and the politicians have created an economic order, where the rich are privileged out of paying taxes, leaving the rest to suck wind. Americans may empathize:

- Bailing out banks and corporations, after they created the Great Recession, only to see them seize homes and small businesses anyway and reward CEOs for doing it?

- The creation of a 1%?

- A 2017 massive tax-cut engineered to feed the wealthy with permanent cuts, complimented with a significant increase in government spending?

All of this contributes to the "swamp" in which so many conservatives hired a silver-spooned elitist to "drain." Ironic. What the French are protesting about (as if they ever need a real reason) is not that unfamiliar to the current situation in America. Except the French have experienced social systems within a welfare state that was long over-burdened even before the recent MENA immigrant wave.

And it certainly is not unfamiliar to history. This is what led so many Europeans to lose faith in democracy and capitalism during the Interwar years as they embraced Communism and Fascism as a means to "fix" their economic problems. Waiting to lead the people into the "fix" were far-right and far-left organizations, all preaching anti-capitalism, anti-democracy, social order, and the recovery of national pride. Why do you think FDR, Chamberlain, and Churchill implemented social programs in America and Great Britain, respectively? It was to preserve faith in the globalizing democratic and capitalist system that so many Germans and others were rebelling against.
While our problems in the US are, indeed, summed up as you stated, I disagree that the same applies to the Euros. They are much more socialist than Americans. By their standards, Hillary and Obama are “righties”.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008
usprimaries_2008.png
 

MSgt

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War? No. Dissent? Yes. However, history proves that these conflicts have always existed. The disagreement between left and right has existed since Hamilton and Jefferson.

The interesting thing about this is to note when in our history this division was at its greatest and when it was at its healthiest. I'm tired of hearing it myself, but there is a race ingredient to it.
 

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While our problems in the US are, indeed, summed up as you stated, I disagree that the same applies to the Euros. They are much more socialist than Americans. By their standards, Hillary and Obama are “righties”.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008
usprimaries_2008.png

Oh, of course you are right. They are far more socialist. We actually helped Europeans create their social democracies after WWII and encouraged their wishes to create welfare states as a means to create faith in democracy and capitalism. The goal was to move western Europe away from Soviet-inspired communism and for that it needed quick political and economic stability. Our cash, organizations like NATO, and political influence guided this.

But I don't think you are disagreeing with me here. Since the protest is made up of all stripes across the spectrum, this is far more economic than political. And these economic issues, along with a political system that encourages trickle-up, are also an American experience right now. We just legalized a permanent trickle-up system through the tax-cut bill and pretended that it was about Trickle-Down economics. This is why I stated that there is a familiarity, not that the "same applies." The U.S. has certainly not experienced 70 years of a welfare state.
 

Serenity

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Oh, god. Give the cliche a rest.

This is France. They protest and riot over the price of cheese. Despite how some politician might exploit this to mean something it really doesn't, this has nothing to do with the concept of socialism.

Nailed it.

This is France. A Republic built on revolution and rebellion. They have a long tradition of protesting.
 

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Well, a common problem with wax melting is heat. But let's stick to the issue, rather than your own personal need to quantify your disdain for socialism (while mixing in communism) and and employ what I like to the call the facts of the actual issue:

- Supply is not the issue. The protests initially focused on a rise in a fuel duty on diesel and it came from drivers.

- ...but there's not much that unites the "yellow vests" beyond their high-visibility gear and their anger at rising taxes and living costs.

- These are not France's most marginalized citizens, but those who say they struggle even while working, who feel they're bearing the brunt of France's economic problems, while businesses and the rich get tax breaks.

Clearly, this is a capitalism issue where those with money (the swamp) have managed to dictate to politicians how the economy is going to work best for them at the expense of the wider population, who do the heavy lifting. You know, the sort of nonsense that would create a 1% in America. Or like giving the American people a massive tax-break in late 2017 where the wealthy are the greatest benefactors and some even get permanent cuts. Add in a significant increase in government spending a couple months later in early 2018 and we can start to see how those who do the heavy lifting in the population are eventually going to get bent over.

There is a reason that FDR and Churchill recognized that a measure of socialism was necessary to protect capitalism and democracy from the rise of communism and fascism. It's because of this crap that democracy and capitalism failed across Europe throughout the Interwar years. And it is because of this that both nation's leaders introduced social systems,rather than communist systems, within their democracies and capitalist economies.

A capitalism issue????? In France??? Youve got to be kidding me. France is the poster boy for European style socialism and when something goes wrong, the usual defenders of looting point the finger at what few slivers of capitalism remain. Is it any wonder why the ignorant youth love socialism, when its dishonest defenders never acknowledge the failures of the system.
 

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They are protesting because Macron isn't socialist enough. He came in as someone who would turn the country around after years of conservative rule, then dished up more of the same.

:lamo:lamo Ocasio-Cortez would be a conservative in France, yet you blame the socialist failings on conservatism :lamo Tell me again how you liberals are the smart ones. I need a good laugh.
 

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A capitalism issue????? In France??? Youve got to be kidding me. France is the poster boy for European style socialism and when something goes wrong, the usual defenders of looting point the finger at what few slivers of capitalism remain. Is it any wonder why the ignorant youth love socialism, when its dishonest defenders never acknowledge the failures of the system.

I will provide you the fact again...

These are not France's most marginalized citizens, but those who say they struggle even while working, who feel they're bearing the brunt of France's economic problems, while businesses and the rich get tax breaks.

This is a capitalism issue and it is a historical repeat. Capitalism run a muck, which resulted in great economic disparity and an eventual 1929 Crash, in which the rich had isolated themselves, is exactly what gave right-wing and left-wing organizations their political power to introduce fascism and communism in the 1920s and 1930s. Roosevelt, Chamberlain, and Churchill recognized the need to save capitalism and democracy through social programs.

In no way did I defend France's over-burdened social programs. France has long understood that it did not not strike the right balance. The reason you can't bring yourself to appreciate a simple fact here, is that you have spent years pretending that France' welfare state makes it a communist state. This is why I constantly caution people like you on the misuse of words that are clearly above your understanding. Look in the mirror and discover true ignorance. The rest of us will just keep reading your posts. I pity you for your inability to recognize that your posts are largely useless.
 

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I will provide you the fact again...



This is a capitalism issue and it is a historical repeat. Capitalism run a muck, which resulted in great economic disparity and an eventual 1929 Crash, in which the rich had isolated themselves, is exactly what gave right-wing and left-wing organizations their political power to introduce fascism and communism in the 1920s and 1930s. Roosevelt, Chamberlain, and Churchill recognized the need to save capitalism and democracy through social programs.

In no way did I defend France's over-burdened social programs. France has long understood that it did not not strike the right balance. The reason you can't bring yourself to appreciate a simple fact here, is that you have spent years pretending that France' welfare state makes it a communist state. This is why I constantly caution people like you on the misuse of words that are clearly above your understanding. Look in the mirror and discover true ignorance. The rest of us will just keep reading your posts. I pity you for your inability to recognize that your posts are largely useless.

Lets see if you can think this through. We have been hearing about how 'the rich get richer' here in the US for decades. And for decades the left has promised to 'solve' this supposed 'problem' Yet this 'problem' has only gotten worse. The solution, we are told, is left wing policies. Now lets look at France, the home of left wing policies and what do we see? People rioting over the 'rich getting richer.' Why? Because socialism doesnt 'solve' that problem, it institutionalizes it. Under socialism you have the wealthy and the powerful and then you have everybody else. In France, what you see is 'everybody else' starting to wipe the fog from their eyes and realize that socialism is and always has been the Big Lie.
 

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Lets see if you can think this through. We have been hearing about how 'the rich get richer' here in the US for decades. And for decades the left has promised to 'solve' this supposed 'problem' Yet this 'problem' has only gotten worse. The solution, we are told, is left wing policies. Now lets look at France, the home of left wing policies and what do we see? People rioting over the 'rich getting richer.' Why? Because socialism doesnt 'solve' that problem, it institutionalizes it. Under socialism you have the wealthy and the powerful and then you have everybody else. In France, what you see is 'everybody else' starting to wipe the fog from their eyes and realize that socialism is and always has been the Big Lie.

Macron is not a socialist, he's a centrist. Unlike in the U.S. and other countries, party affiliation is a paid membership. Macron stopped paying his dues to the Socialist Party at least 10 years ago. He was an investment banker, which is capitalistic by definition. Of course, he's going to be pro-business, pro-markets. Not all French are socialists, there's many different political movements in Europe, just check out what Steve Bannon has been up to. Macron ran on a pro business platform and proposed deregulation, cutting spending and taxes, and other domestic policy that sound downright conservative to us. Of course, he’s no conservative, he’s socially and culturally very progressive. That’s what a European liberal means.
 
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