jfuh
DP Veteran
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Exactly what they want.Kandahar said:I doubt Japan will ever apologize. The Japanese are very nationalistic and xenophobic. Even merely acknowledging that the atrocities took place will probably not happen for several more decades, when most of the people who remember WWII are dead.
No, he didn't apologize at Jakarta, he issued a statement of remorse and regret. That's not at all an apology.Volker said:The weird thing is, that Mr. Koizumi actually apologized at Jakarta summit and during the same time 80 Japanese parlamentarians visited Yasukuni shrine.
What would be an apology in your opinion?jfuh said:No, he didn't apologize at Jakarta, he issued a statement of remorse and regret. That's not at all an apology.
If the prime minister of Japan would issue: "On behalf of the nation of Japan, I apologize to all the nations that suffered under imperialist Japan."Volker said:What would be an apology in your opinion?
No it did not. Do you think Saddam is at all apologetic to the US, Kuwait, the Kurds?fooligan said:I think the apology came with the surrender.
Y'know, we kicked their asses.
Ok, I understand.jfuh said:If the prime minister of Japan would issue: "On behalf of the nation of Japan, I apologize to all the nations that suffered under imperialist Japan."
Then, take out the war criminals posts from the Yasukuni Shrine and write truthfully in its history text books of its militant past.
Essentially learn from Germany.
ie doing this in cities such as Nanjing, China; Honolulu, Hawaii:
"deep reflections and heartfelt apologies"
What does it matter when they were committed? WHat has Japan done to reconcile these crimes? Enshrine CONVICTED CLASS A WAR CRIMINALS in the yasukuni shrine, as well as visits by the Japanese prime minister and nearly all of the LDP party to the shrine admist protests from all Asian countries. This is identical to erecting a church to honor Hitler.ludahai said:While Japan undoubtedly committed horrendous crimes in WWII against China, Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines and other countries, they occurred more than sixty years ago.
What the fuc$ does China have anything to do with Japan's insincerity? Perhaps you have not noticed the thread?ludahai said:Since then, Japan has become one of the most responsible nations in the international community, while China has become the regional threat and threatens to become the regional aggressor.
Issuing an apology then later visiting the Yasukuni shrine, the apologies were completely unsincere, nothing more than lip service.ludahai said:However, to say apologies have not been issued is a fabrication.
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-08/2005-08-15-voa6.cfm?CFID=29183416&CFTOKEN=20923598
That was present PM Koizumi.
Then getting essentially ousted by the LDP.ludahai said:PM Maruyama also offerred a formal apology in 1995.
2 questions,ludahai said:As for the textbook issue, not all Japanese texts whitewash history. There was one approved last year, but it has been adoped by less than one percent of Japan's schools.
WHat's peiping? a city? person?ludahai said:Let's also not forget the millions and millions of yen that have been given to counties in the region (China still receives considerable aid despite Peiping's recent virulant anti-Japan rhetoric). This is an even more meaningful form of apology.
Again what the hell does it matter of any other country does, does it then make what Japan did and continually do right? Surely you see the variance of how Germany handles the Holocoust with how Japan handles it's mass murders all over Asia.ludahai said:I want to know when the ChiComs are going to apologize for their ONGOING crimes against the Tibetans and their own people. How about an apology for the lies in THEIR textbooks?
jfuh said:What does it matter when they were committed? WHat has Japan done to reconcile these crimes? Enshrine CONVICTED CLASS A WAR CRIMINALS in the yasukuni shrine, as well as visits by the Japanese prime minister and nearly all of the LDP party to the shrine admist protests from all Asian countries. This is identical to erecting a church to honor Hitler.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4471495.stm
What the fuc$ does China have anything to do with Japan's insincerity? Perhaps you have not noticed the thread?
Issuing an apology then later visiting the Yasukuni shrine, the apologies were completely unsincere, nothing more than lip service.
Example, if Willy Brandt after kneeling down at Warsaw upon returning to Germany and wore a schwatztika that's the equivalence of what Koizumi does annually.
He claims it to be his constitutional right as an individual to visit the shrine. However an Osaka court ruled that it was unconstitutional for the PM to visit Yasukuni and presented a violation of Japan's Constitution.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4307393.stm
2 questions,
1) who approves these text books?
2) what is written in the rest of the text books with regards to Japan's militant past?
Do you know? I'll tell you
1) The ministry of education - a government ministry.
2) Hardly anything, just brief exerpts in acknowledgement that they invaded asian countries. How much is written about Hiroshima? chapters upon chapters.
WHat's peiping? a city? person?
Economic aid hmmm, and how much does Germany pay annually to Israel? Is it aid? or something else? Surly you of all people know the difference.
Just incase you don't know here's something that you should listen to.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1037152 Just a small section of Japan's holocost in Asia, in this it's particular to China.
Again what the hell does it matter of any other country does, does it then make what Japan did and continually do right? Surely you see the variance of how Germany handles the Holocoust with how Japan handles it's mass murders all over Asia.
ChiComs, yes realy gives your argument a lot of credibility doesn't it?
International war criminals are a DOMESTIC matter? So your forefathers died and sacrificed in WWII for what exactly? So that the enemy they fought would house the murders they captured and convicted in a shrine and honored as heros? Disgusting.ludahai said:No, it is not. There is far more there than the class A war criminals. That shrine is more than a century old and is a vital part of Shinto tradition of recognizing their forebearers. It functions much as Arlington National Cemetary does to the US. Would I prefer that the war criminals were removed? Yes. However, as the Chinese love to say, that is an internal matter.
As I've stated, this thread is not about China's crimes, it's about Japan claiming to be the victim, if you want to talk about China perhaps you can start another thread? Otherwise this has zero contribution.ludahai said:Whenever someone brings up China's crimes (which are ONGOING), you are prepared to ignore them. Hypocrite.
Let's see, visiting shrine that honors Class A war criminals as heros then saying he's sorry for Japan's aggressionist past. Hmmm, if that doesn't spell liar to you I don't know what will.ludahai said:Your opinion. Do you claim to read Koizumi's mind and understand his intentions?
Wow, are you "overrulling" the Osaka courts ruling that Koizumi, as the PM of Japan, to visit Yasukuni is unconstitutional? The court clearly spelled out that the PM does not have the rights as private citizens do to visit the shrine. They ruled quite clearly that all of the PM's actions are representative of the state.ludahai said:And as in most countries where the rule of law prevails, there are apellate rights which the PM, as any other Japanese citizen, has the right to avail himself of?
Bullshit, plain and simple.ludahai said:BTW, what do you think of the countless rulings AGAINST Chinese and Korean claimants?
I'm not talking of that ONE text book, I'm talking about all the text books. All of them gloss over Japan in WWII. Contrast that with German text books- nothing is glossed over, every german national is knowledgable of the occurances of the holocaust.ludahai said:The MOE is REQUIRED to approve them so long as they meet MINIMUM curricular guidelines. Democracies generally believe that freedom of expression is important. The real decisions on textbook adoption occur at the local level. This book has been almost universally rejected! One school that DID adopt it is facing a lawsuit.
Who's comparing to US text books? The Us never commited a holocaust such as that of Germany or Japan.ludahai said:Not as much as US texts discuss the historical sins of its past to be sure, BUT it is more than just glossed over these days. I have seen two commonly used texts. Also, most Japanese teachers add more to what is in the text. In fact, ALL good teachers do this. If you think I stuck strictly to the textbook when I taught history, that would be a grave error.
I have never seen nor heard of such reference to beijing. Perhaps you are trying to spell Beiping? or Peiking? I suggest you look up the phonetics before making up words in the future, may add more credibility to your arguments when you reference correctly.ludahai said:That is how the PRC's capital is generally known as here.
And thus that makes it OK for Japan to be an bad *** right? What kind of bull$hit argument is that? Why you keep going off topic?ludahai said:China's communists are responsible for the deaths of more Chinese than Japan is.
Again, why are you purposly going off topic? Losing momentum?ludahai said:China's government currently brutalizes non-Chinese in the territories it occupies. The alter history in their own textbooks.
I notice you do not respond to my question but instead again go off in a tangent that is completely irrelevent to the topic. This isn't only about China, this is also about Vietnam, Phillipines, Korea (both koreas), Indonesia (though not so much) and so on and so forth.ludahai said:If Japan stops its aid, you KNOW China will whine that it is ENTITLED to that aid. There are many in Japan who want it ended in the aftermath of the barbaric behavior of the Chinese after losing to Japan in soccer.
Main Entry: 1aid
Pronunciation: 'Ad
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English eyden, from Middle French aider, from Latin adjutare, frequentative of adjuvare, from ad- + juvare to help
transitive senses : to provide with what is useful or necessary in achieving an end
intransitive senses : to give assistance
- aid·er noun
Main Entry: rep·a·ra·tion
Pronunciation: "re-p&-'rA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin reparation-, reparatio, from Latin reparare
1 a : a repairing or keeping in repair b plural : REPAIRS
2 a : the act of making amends, offering expiation, or giving satisfaction for a wrong or injury b : something done or given as amends or satisfaction
3 : the payment of damages : INDEMNIFICATION; specifically : compensation in money or materials payable by a defeated nation for damages to or expenditures sustained by another nation as a result of hostilities with the defeated nation -- usually used in plural
AGain, why do you keep going off topic? THis thread is NOT about China, if you like to blabber about CHina's killings start another thread about it and we'll debate about it there, otherwise provide something constructive to the argument as shown in the title of the thread.ludahai said:Japan is CURRENTLY a responsible member of the international community, UNLIKE your buddies in China.
What truth, I don't even know what it is you're talking about.ludahai said:The truth hurts, doesn't it?
jfuh said:International war criminals are a DOMESTIC matter? So your forefathers died and sacrificed in WWII for what exactly? So that the enemy they fought would house the murders they captured and convicted in a shrine and honored as heros? Disgusting.
As I've stated, this thread is not about China's crimes, it's about Japan claiming to be the victim, if you want to talk about China perhaps you can start another thread? Otherwise this has zero contribution.
Or is it that you are arguing because China commits crimes against humanity then Japan shouldn't have to apologize for her crimes? I thought you were all about international law Lu? What happened in this case, inapplicable?
Let's see, visiting shrine that honors Class A war criminals as heros then saying he's sorry for Japan's aggressionist past. Hmmm, if that doesn't spell liar to you I don't know what will.
Wow, are you "overrulling" the Osaka courts ruling that Koizumi, as the PM of Japan, to visit Yasukuni is unconstitutional? The court clearly spelled out that the PM does not have the rights as private citizens do to visit the shrine. They ruled quite clearly that all of the PM's actions are representative of the state.
I'm not talking of that ONE text book, I'm talking about all the text books. All of them gloss over Japan in WWII. Contrast that with German text books- nothing is glossed over, every german national is knowledgable of the occurances of the holocaust.
Who's comparing to US text books? The Us never commited a holocaust such as that of Germany or Japan.
As for the teachers, no, they are not allowed to teach further.
Sources:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2161
http://www2.gol.com/users/coynerhm/tokyo_teacher_is_punished_for_pa.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Te...m/2005/03/27/1111862258598.html?oneclick=true
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/55a/453.html
I have never seen nor heard of such reference to beijing. Perhaps you are trying to spell Beiping? or Peiking? I suggest you look up the phonetics before making up words in the future, may add more credibility to your arguments when you reference correctly.
Peip'ing
is what you get if you use the Wade-Giles romanization of the Mandarin pronounciation of the Nationalist name.
Peiping
is what you get if you use the Wade-Giles romanization of the Mandarin pronounciation of the Nationalist name but drop the apostrophe.
Mao Tse-tung
DIRECTIVAS PARA LAS
OPERACIONES EN LA CAMPAÑA
DE PEIPING-TIENTSIN
And thus that makes it OK for Japan to be an bad *** right? What kind of bull$hit argument is that? Why you keep going off topic?
Again, why are you purposly going off topic? Losing momentum?
I notice you do not respond to my question but instead again go off in a tangent that is completely irrelevent to the topic. This isn't only about China, this is also about Vietnam, Phillipines, Korea (both koreas), Indonesia (though not so much) and so on and so forth.
Perhaps you need to be educated on the variance between economic aid and war time repartations. Here's the simplified version:
All contries invaded by Japan (including the US) are entitiled to war reparations from Japan.
San Francisco Peace Treaty: Article 14 said:(b) Except as otherwise provided in the present Treaty, the Allied Powers waive all reparations claims of the Allied Powers, other claims of the Allied Powers and their nationals arising out of any actions taken by Japan and its nationals in the course of the prosecution of the war, and claims of the Allied Powers for direct military costs of occupation.
If Japan chooses to additionally give economic aid packages to these countries that is thier own decision and has nothing to do with Japan being the original aggressor.
Then is China not entitled to recieve reparations (not aid) from Japan? Israel as a nation receives such from Germany, and Israel didn't even exist during WWII.
AGain, why do you keep going off topic? THis thread is NOT about China, if you like to blabber about CHina's killings start another thread about it and we'll debate about it there, otherwise provide something constructive to the argument as shown in the title of the thread.
What truth, I don't even know what it is you're talking about.
ludahai said:While Japan undoubtedly committed horrendous crimes in WWII against China, Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines and other countries, they occurred more than sixty years ago. Since then, Japan has become one of the most responsible nations in the international community, while China has become the regional threat and threatens to become the regional aggressor.
However, to say apologies have not been issued is a fabrication.
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-08/2005-08-15-voa6.cfm?CFID=29183416&CFTOKEN=20923598
That was present PM Koizumi.
PM Maruyama also offerred a formal apology in 1995.
As for the textbook issue, not all Japanese texts whitewash history. There was one approved last year, but it has been adoped by less than one percent of Japan's schools.
Let's also not forget the millions and millions of yen that have been given to counties in the region (China still receives considerable aid despite Peiping's recent virulant anti-Japan rhetoric). This is an even more meaningful form of apology.
I want to know when the ChiComs are going to apologize for their ONGOING crimes against the Tibetans and their own people. How about an apology for the lies in THEIR textbooks?
jfuh said:No it did not. Do you think Saddam is at all apologetic to the US, Kuwait, the Kurds?
Japan today claim that it was the fault of western powers, including but not limited to the US, that pushed her to fight in WWII.
Let me re-iterate again, CLASS A WAR CRIMINALS!ludahai said:Once they have assumed room temperature and are buried, the attendence at RELIGIOUS ceremonies at the shrine most certainly ARE an internal matter.
If you want to go on with your assumptions Lu make sure you know who it is you are assuming about. My family suffered under imperialist Japanese rule. Don't tell me about support. Who ever said I supported your chicoms?ludahai said:That is the very phrase your ChiCom buddies love to use all the time. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. BTW, both of my grandfathers fought for the notion of FREEDOM, something that you perhaps need to learn a little more about if you are going to support the sort of thugs that you do.
Again, you like to go off topic. Hypocricy is completely unrelated to this matter. Korea also suffered under imperialist Japan, as did the Philliipines, Vietnam. So what are you saying? Well China did such and such and such, so Japan is off the hook. Why do you keep going off topic on this subject matter?ludahai said:In your mind, they are unrelated. However, what makes them related is the RANK HYPOCRICY of complaing about Japan yet wishing to deflect criticism against a regime that is responsible for FAR MORE CHINESE DEATHS AND SUFFERING than the Imperial Japanese Army was ever guilty of.
Japan has?Actions speak louder then words.ludahai said:Japan HAS apologized for its crimes. It is China that has not.
Doesn't matter, how many, the fact is they are there. If Germany "inshrined" Hitler you think it'd matter who else was there?ludahai said:Fourteen war criminals are interred there as are more than a million Japanese war dead.
So I don't see any argument you've made. Untill the higher courts ruling such visits by the prime minister are unconstitutional.ludahai said:I didn't overrule the Osaka courts. There is a higher court that this case is currently being appealed to. Under Japanese law, the judgement of the lower court is stayed until the higher court renders its decision.
Lol, you forget of my origins lu. Of course I read Japanese.ludahai said:Have you ever read a Japanese textbook? Can you even read Japanese?
Japan does not. Dude, this is not about the US nor China nor anyone else, this is about Japan. Get it through your head.ludahai said:No, but the US is guilty for the Trail of Tears, Slavery, the Japanese-American internment, among other things. Unlike China and to a lesser extent Japan, the US does try to address its sins in the classroom.
Yes lets elaborate on that for everyone here. You're residing in Japan now? Local japanese school? Want to elaborate on credibility?ludahai said:My sources are a number of friends who are Japanese teachers and who have graduated from Japanese high schools. One of my best friends here is a history teacher (he is my badminton doubles' partner) at the local Japanese school. Those people tell a VERY DIFFERENT story than you do. They are far more credible.
:rofl Whatever you like lu lol.ludahai said:Actually, my reference was correct. It is the Wade-Giles form of 北平, which is still commonly used in Taiwan.
Yes you did. Argument after argument you scapegoat Japan's responsibility and blame China for something that occured years later. Relationship? Weak.ludahai said:I never said that it did. You are putting words in my mouth. Typical ChiCom sympathizer tactic, isn't it.
However, what makes them related is the RANK HYPOCRICY of complaing about Japan yet wishing to deflect criticism against a regime that is responsible for FAR MORE CHINESE DEATHS AND SUFFERING than the Imperial Japanese Army was ever guilty of.
THere is no link lu. China killing thier own citizens has nothing at all to do with Japan invading China. Perhaps you would liken to link the US's civil war with the US-Spanish war?ludahai said:Are you so simplistic that you can see the link?
ludahai said:Again, Japan has apologized. Japan is now a responsible member of the international community.
One needn't political knowledge to understand common sense.ludahai said:Trust me, I know the technical definition between the two. However, you seem to lack a sophistication of the political nature of Japanese aid.
Wrong again, I'm speaking of entitlement, perhaps reading would help?ludahai said:WRONG!
So what? I thought it's already been established the two are unrelated.ludahai said:I guarantee you if Japan cut off Overseas Development Assistance to China, they would be frothing at the mouth AND YOU KNOW IT!
China as a nation is not entitled no, Chinese citizens are, as are Korean nationals and so on.ludahai said:China is NOT entitled to receive reparations. After all, the PRC didn't even exist in 1945. Seriously, the Peace Treaty of San Francisco is the governing document ending World War II.
No, I'm merely pointing out the irrelevance of your arguments specific to this thread. You keep pointing out the hypocrisy of China's government, big deal, hardly to the least Justifies Japan at all.ludahai said:Gee, getting a little uncomfortable when the hypocrisy of the Chinese is exposed?
No, I've never heard the term Chicoms until now, so no I have no idea what you are talking about.ludahai said:I know, truth is something you don't deal in very well, is it?
I guess then it was also FDR's responsibility then that Japan invaded China to begin with in 1937? That is what they are claiming.Trajan Octavian Titus said:Well FDR pushed them to attack the U.S. through the oil embargo that would have destroyed their war fighting capacity in China their only choice was to try a knock out blow against the U.S. navy at Pearl Harbor so they could take the oil controlled by the U.S. in the western Pacific.
Nice well written website.128shot said:
jfuh said:I guess then it was also FDR's responsibility then that Japan invaded China to begin with in 1937? That is what they are claiming.
Wow, I need to break a bottle open, we're in agreement, this really calls for celebration.Trajan Octavian Titus said:No that's on them.
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