Vengeful, evil God in the Old Testament?

[Councilman]

I have explained all this here before but I will try one more time to get through to everyone.

Neither the Old or New Testaments are the literal words of God.

They are the words of men who are relating what they see as the meanings of what God wants from us.

The Old Testament failed to gain the desired results, and yes it depicted God as a demanding vengeful God who used threats and intimidation to gain his will.

It didn't work as was pointed out in the OP.

The New Testament reflects the reforms that were needed to do a better jobs of pointing people in the right direction.

It replaces the threats and intimidation with joy and love, and makes redemption a simple painless process that only requires that we believe, as it is said in John 3:16 that 'God gave his only begotten Son to die for our sins," and if we believe that we are saved, and have the door is open to ever lasting life.

The stories of the Bible are metaphors and meant to make one think.

As I said they are written by men and years after the events depicted were to have taken place.

One cannot compare Islam to Christianity past one thing they share the most important message, as do at least 19 other beliefs.

"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."

If we all did that the World would be a better place over night and wars would become a thing of the past as would all crime.

One thing we need to keep in mind is that radical Islam. as found in Wahhabi teachings, and Sharia Law is not a religion. It it a Cult and I will not go into how I arrived at that conclusion. There are some things you need to learn on your own if you care to.

BTW Jewish teachings have for the most part been reformed as well.

Bod bless you all.

 

[Tashah]

Human sacrifice was part and parcel of cultism and paganism. Read the story of Abraham and Issac. Never again would the Israelite's engage in the pagan act of human sacrifice. This motif is repeated throughout Torah.

Part of the problem is that words in the English language usually have a singular connotation. Hebrew words can possess many different connotations simultaneously. That is why Torah students can literally spend a lifetime studying Torah. In the original Hebrew, Torah is extremely multi-faceted with layer upon layer. Anything less, and you are reading with blinders on. There is also an assumption that Torah was intended to be a populist scripture. This is an incorrect assumption. It was specifically intended for the Hebrew people and none other.

 

[German guy]

This is an incorrect assumption. It was specifically intended for the Hebrew people and none other.

With all respect to your faith, but I assume ca. 2 billion Christians beg to differ!

 

[Tashah]

With all respect to your faith, but I assume ca. 2 billion Christians beg to differ!

You can beg to differ all you want, but the truth of the matter remains. Judaism is exclusive to the Jewish people. Christianity is the populist daughter of Judaism and was intended to be all-inclusive.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

After I read the bible I had the same basic question, what happened between old and New Testament, God have some kind of epiphany or something? How did it go from “eye for an eye” to “turn the other cheek”? It’s like Jesus shows up one day and says, remember all that get even kill your enemy stuff? Well ummm, not so much, new rules.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Human sacrifice was part and parcel of cultism and paganism. Read the story of Abraham and Issac. Never again would the Israelite's engage in the pagan act of human sacrifice. This motif is repeated throughout Torah.

Except where they worshiped baal and when the king Jephthah made a rash vow and sacrificed his daughter, and all that cheery fun stuff. The Torah really helped.

Part of the problem is that words in the English language usually have a singular connotation. Hebrew words can possess many different connotations simultaneously. That is why Torah students can literally spend a lifetime studying Torah. In the original Hebrew, Torah is extremely multi-faceted with layer upon layer. Anything less, and you are reading with blinders on. There is also an assumption that Torah was intended to be a populist scripture. This is an incorrect assumption. It was specifically intended for the Hebrew people and none other.

Jews don't even follow Torah, the follow Talmud and that zohar or whatever the ****. Christianity has done more good with it's "populist scripture", than the jews could have imagined. I thought Isaiah said you were supposed to be a "light to all nations". Hah! With a light like that, who needs Darkness?

 

[DarkWizard12]

You can beg to differ all you want, but the truth of the matter remains. Judaism is exclusive to the Jewish people. Christianity is the populist daughter of Judaism and was intended to be all-inclusive.

Then there is no purpose for the jews, you might as well have all been a country of atheists.

Oh! wait, you are. A majority of jews are atheists, who knew?

 

[BDBoop]

Then there is no purpose for the jews, you might as well have all been a country of atheists.

Oh! wait, you are. A majority of jews are atheists, who knew?

Who knew, indeed. Citation, please.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Who knew, indeed. Citation, please.

Religious beliefs

American Jews are more likely to be atheist or agnostic than most Americans, especially so compared with Protestants or Catholics. A 2003 poll found that while 79% of Americans believe in God, only 48% of American Jews do, compared with 79% and 90% for Catholics and Protestants respectively. While 66% of Americans said they were "absolutely certain" of God's existence, 24% of American Jews said the same. And though 9 percent of Americans believe there is no God (8% Catholic and 4% Protestant), 19 percent of American Jews believe God does not exist.

American Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/va...cans-Believe-in-God-Only-36-pct-A-2003-10.pdf

 

[BDBoop]

Religious beliefs

American Jews are more likely to be atheist or agnostic than most Americans, especially so compared with Protestants or Catholics. A 2003 poll found that while 79% of Americans believe in God, only 48% of American Jews do, compared with 79% and 90% for Catholics and Protestants respectively. While 66% of Americans said they were "absolutely certain" of God's existence, 24% of American Jews said the same. And though 9 percent of Americans believe there is no God (8% Catholic and 4% Protestant), 19 percent of American Jews believe God does not exist.

American Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/va...cans-Believe-in-God-Only-36-pct-A-2003-10.pdf

Wow. Thank you. Two of my best friends are Jewish, so of course I was skeptical of your claim.

 

[Tashah]

Oh! wait, you are. A majority of jews are atheists, who knew?

A perfect example of a know-it-all who contributes little and knows far less.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Wow. Thank you. Two of my best friends are Jewish, so of course I was skeptical of your claim.

"judaism" is looked at not as a religion, but correctly as a culture/a nation. So you can be jewish and an atheist and it is compatible. Still, anyone who looks at jewish history, from the exodus to modern times, it baffles me why one would choose to be an atheist. If anyone has reason to not be atheist/agnostics/or whatever, it's the jewish people.

The jews have all the answers, but refuse to give them.

 

[DarkWizard12]

A perfect example of a know-it-all who contributes little and knows far less.

Backed into a corner I see.

 

[BDBoop]

"judaism" is looked at not as a religion, but correctly as a culture/a nation. So you can be jewish and an atheist and it is compatible. Still, anyone who looks at jewish history, from the exodus to modern times, it baffles me why one would choose to be an atheist. If anyone has reason to not be atheist/agnostics/or whatever, it's the jewish people.

The jews have all the answers, but refuse to give them.

The two ladies in question are practicing jews. One orthodox, one ... not?

 

[Tashah]

"judaism" is looked at not as a religion, but correctly as a culture/a nation. So you can be jewish and an atheist and it is compatible. Still, anyone who looks at jewish history, from the exodus to modern times, it baffles me why one would choose to be an atheist. If anyone has reason to not be atheist/agnostics/or whatever, it's the jewish people.

Get your terms straight. Judaism is a religion. The Jewish people are a culture and nationality. Simply being Jewish does not mandate being religious. I am Jewish, but I am about an 80/20 mix of secular/religious. I'm a strong believer that each of us has to find our own individual comfort zone in regards to religion and spirituality.

 

[DarkWizard12]

The two ladies in question are practicing jews. One orthodox, one ... not?

is the non orthodox one young and beautiful? lol kidding

ahah, but what is orthodox? The bible concerns itself little with belief or rituals, and more with ethics. If the non orthodox girl cooks food for homeless people, she is more jewish than her orthodox counterpart, in my opinion.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Get your terms straight. Judaism is a religion. The Jewish people are a culture and nationality. Simply being Jewish does not mandate being religious. I am Jewish, but I am about an 80/20 mix of secular/religious. I'm a strong believer that each of us has to find our own individual comfort zone in regards to religion and spirituality.

Thank you, i was unsure so i put the word in quotes. I shall remember the proper term next time, so you may not get confused.

 

[BDBoop]

is the non orthodox one young and beautiful? lol kidding

ahah, but what is orthodox? The bible concerns itself little with belief or rituals, and more with ethics. If the non orthodox girl cooks food for homeless people, she is more jewish than her orthodox counterpart, in my opinion.

No, she's not. But she's brilliant, quick-witted, humorous, and has a heart the size of Texas. I cannot imagine life without her. She literally got me through 2010 (now that I am gainfully employed, I am joyfully paying her back.) She does the "no work after sunset Friday through Saturday", no cheeseburgers, no pork, no shellfish, and that's about it for that, for her.

The orthodox is also an amazing woman, young mother to three beautiful children that she is also educating to be orthodox.

 

[DarkWizard12]

No, she's not. But she's brilliant, quick-witted, humorous, and has a heart the size of Texas. I cannot imagine life without her. She literally got me through 2010 (now that I am gainfully employed, I am joyfully paying her back.) She does the "no work after sunset Friday through Saturday", no cheeseburgers, no pork, no shellfish, and that's about it for that, for her.

The orthodox is also an amazing woman, young mother to three beautiful children that she is also educating to be orthodox.

i have no jewish friends to speak of. population is just to sparse in texas for that sort of thing. Give them my regards!

 

[Goshin]

Moderator's Warning:

Easy folks, this is getting a bit heated. We can discuss differing beliefs without being disrespectful to others, shocking as the concept may be to some folks.

 

[rathi]

To go down another path, exactly what evil deeds does Satan commit in the bible that make him so reprehensible? I can't remember anything he does that really stands out for being wrong.

 

[Temporal]

To go down another path, exactly what evil deeds does Satan commit in the bible that make him so reprehensible? I can't remember anything he does that really stands out for being wrong.

I've played with the notion before that Satan and God have some kind of agreement for this arrangement. If God is infinite, then Satan is a part of God who thinks he is separate - or is perhaps pretending he is separate. Satan is supposed to represent an aspect of being human where one thinks they are not with God and that they are beyond reprieve. But this is an illusion. You are currently part of God... the separation never truly happened. No matter what you do, this connection is there. It is inherent in all of nature. Satan is an archetype for our egoic ways.

It's the same reason that Hell is often seen as the absence of God. Well, God is never truly absent, unless a strong delusion (in the philosophical sense) makes Him seem so. Like Satan is never truly separate, neither is Hell.

Either way, this has been orchestrated via God. Which makes you wonder.

 

[scourge99]

So did pharao have a choice, or did he not have a choice, because God hardened his heart? If I understand you correctly, you believe he had no choice (correct me, if I'm wrong).

i don't claim to know if pharoah had a "choice". there are far too many complexities with freewill/determinism/omnipotence to say precisely. what we can be sure of is that yahweh influenced the pharoah to some extent (hardened his heart) such that the pharoah would reject Moses pleas.

But this means it was not his fault the plagues came over Egypt -- God hardened his heart, so God decided they would come. Ergo, God is responsible for these plagues, not paharao's stubbornness.

yahweh says several times unambigously that yahweh hardened pharaohs heart so yahweh could flex his god muscles in front of the egyptians.

"1Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them,"

"4And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD." And they did so."

Which leaves us with the question how a merciful God can punish innocents for the deeds of their leader/someone else.

the god of the old testament is often depicted as a vengeful, despicable, jealous and evil being by todays standards.

Apologists have several responses to this:
1 god is good by definition therefore by tautology, anything god does, whether it is mass genocide, rape, or torture is "good"
2 god is omniscient (or close to it) and has a "plan". everything is made right in the end. his acts are necessary.

there are a few others as well as some different spins and variations of the above. There are problems with all these explanations. the most prevalent one is that these explanations cannot be verified or supported by anything besides speculation and conjecture. its no different than speculating on the dietary habits of unicorns.

 

[SingleCellOrganism]

What is missing from discussion is the following:

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

The Old Testament is 'a shadow' and the Jews never understood what he was like, they simply were at the mercy of history of which God intervened on a few occasions only so that Israel would not be destroyed in order that the 'seed of David' could be born and show the world who God is.

In other words, the OT is a history lesson on the Jews, and God's plan to use them as the birthplace for his ultimate philosophical statement against the 'one accusing him day and night'. The NT and Jesus reveal God's personality.

God's 'jealousy' for the Israelites was because they consistently turned their back on justice, and would begin 'worshipping other Gods' and causing 'injustice against the innocent'. Much like the jealousy of a husband whose wife cheats on him, rather than 'you're car is nicer than mine'.

God's people are literally referred to as the 'bride'.

 

[The Rev Kros]

It is easy for the victors who write in their histories "We had God on our side. We wiped out the entire people with his blessing."