Vegas Shooter Report is In[W:96]

[TurtleDude]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

From the Supreme Court, majority opinion written by Antonin Scalia:

you miss the point. people who have -through due process of law-have lost their rights is different than a blanket ban that the federal government has no proper power to instigate. Why do "liberals" try to read the second amendment as narrowly as possible but find "rights" to exist that the founders never would have supported?

 

[goldkam]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

LOL :mrgreen:

Not having a great day.Lose. However this is coming from someone who doesn't know how to put a space in their username "TurtleDude" and incorrectly applies a capital to "Dude" and has "warrior of the wetlands" with no capital letter to begin the sentence. Come on basic punctuation.

LOL.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

Not having a great day.Lose. However this is coming from someone who doesn't know how to put a space in their username "TurtleDude" and incorrectly applies a capital to "Dude" and has "warrior of the wetlands" with no capital letter to begin the sentence. Come on basic punctuation.

LOL.

TurtleDude is a handle: there is no "correct" way to spell it. warrior of the wetlands is a fictitious title. again, no relevant.

 

[Rucker61]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

From the Supreme Court, majority opinion written by Antonin Scalia:

Stating that limits exist in no way authorizes the government to impose any limit it desires.

 

[Rucker61]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

Here is why I care. Success in any country can be replicated or at least translated into legislation, examples and rulings.

Fixated??? I have post no more than five comments relating to the UK, last time I checked there is nothing wrong with mentioning and comparing the US and UK. Which also highlight quite alarming statistics which annoy some people.

For most decades in the 20th century, up to about the mid 1990s, the homicide rate in the UK was 1/10th that of the US. Now it's about 1/5th. What happened to improve that ratio in favor of the US?

 

[Anarchon]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

From the Supreme Court, majority opinion written by Antonin Scalia:

Are you saying that you have the authority to force others to do as you will because some other guy in a robe says so?

 

[vegas giants]

Are you saying that you have the authority to force others to do as you will because some other guy in a robe says so?

I am certainly saying that

 

[ataraxia]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

Stating that limits exist in no way authorizes the government to impose any limit it desires.

So who does? And once decided, who will enforce it?

 

[ataraxia]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

Are you saying that you have the authority to force others to do as you will because some other guy in a robe says so?

Yes. How's that different than any other laws? That's what it means to live in a country of laws.

If you want complete freedom to do as you please and carry any weapon anywhere for whatever reason you like, Somalia (not Scalia) may be more of what you are looking for.

Anything wrong with these nice folks exercising their "natural God given freedoms"?

 

[Anarchon]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

Yes. How's that different than any other laws? That's what it means to live in a country of laws.

If you want complete freedom to do as you please and carry any weapon anywhere for whatever reason you like, Somalia may be more of what you may be looking for.

Anything wrong with these nice folks exercising their "natural God given freedoms"?

View attachment 67238051View attachment 67238052

Somalia has both officially recognized governments, and governing occuring via crime syndicates. It is not anarchistic in any form or fashion.

You might be lucky if you ever come to understand that to govern is to force, and that's immoral regardless of if you are wearing a uniform or not.

 

[Anarchon]

I am certainly saying that

Obi-wan-Kenobi told me I can force you accept guns in the world.

 

[vegas giants]

Obi-wan-Kenobi told me I can force you accept guns in the world.

I already do

 

[ataraxia]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

Somalia has both officially recognized governments, and governing occuring via crime syndicates. It is not anarchistic in any form or fashion.

You might be lucky if you ever come to understand that to govern is to force, and that's immoral regardless of if you are wearing a uniform or not.

The only other alternative is vigilante justice. As you may be aware, that does not have a better track record.

 

[ataraxia]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

Somalia has both officially recognized governments, and governing occuring via crime syndicates. It is not anarchistic in any form or fashion.

You might be lucky if you ever come to understand that to govern is to force, and that's immoral regardless of if you are wearing a uniform or not.

Are you aware of any organization or association, whether a school, neighborhood condo associations, workplaces, playgrounds, even families, etc... which can remain functional for very long without clearly defined and enforceable rules and consequences for disobeying?

 

[Anarchon]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

Are you aware of any organization or association, whether a school, neighborhood condo associations, workplaces, playgrounds, even families, etc... which can remain functional for very long without clearly defined and enforceable rules and consequences for disobeying?

Not that it is relevant (you've made a strawman here), but I do think so. Do you have a group of friends that coexist without force? That would qualify as both an organization and an association.

I think voluntary association and cooperation are wondrous, prosperous possibilities for humanity. However, we will never truly find out until people, like yourself, stop thinking it's ok to force others to behave as you wish.

 

[Anarchon]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

The only other alternative is vigilante justice. As you may be aware, that does not have a better track record.

What happened to individuals being able to defend themselves instead of relying on organized crime to do it for them? You've created a fallacy of bifurcation here. You're also ignoring the increased amount of "vigilante justice" executed by those in power when you give those special people power. You might want to review their "track record."

 

[ataraxia]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

Not that it is relevant (you've made a strawman here), but I do think so. Do you have a group of friends that coexist without force? That would qualify as both an organization and an association.

Sure. But friendships are voluntary. If one of my friends acts like a jerk and breaking the unwritten rules of friendship as I know them, I stop associating with him. I have that option. That's harder to do when you are dealing with a larger association. Let's say I have a neighbor who likes to blast his stereo at 3 am every night. I can't get any sleep. I keep telling him to stop, but he won't. What can I do? Go rough him up to teach him a lesson? Take his stereo and throw it out the 5th story window? What if, in my frustration and exasperation, I go too far and maim him or kill him? What if I kill him and his whole family in my anger? Who decides if I went too far, or what too far even is? If there are no clearly defined rules and no objective third party to mediate our dispute, and no effective means of enforcing those expectations and dispute settlements, you can see how things can get out of hand very quickly.

Like I said, any time vigilante justice has been tried, the results have not been very good. A system of law and order, although not perfect, tends to do better. I don't think this is a straw man, because if you take away law and law enforcement, that is in essence what is left. You have to take the law into your own hands. And if there is no law, you yourself are left with the responsibility of yourself being the legislator, law enforcement, judge, jury, and executioner. I am sure you can see how that can turn real ugly real fast.

 

[ataraxia]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

What happened to individuals being able to defend themselves instead of relying on organized crime to do it for them? You've created a fallacy of bifurcation here. You're also ignoring the increased amount of "vigilante justice" executed by those in power when you give those special people power. You might want to review their "track record."

While a system of government and law and order is not perfect, ideally you have SOME system of checks and balances. There should, ideally, always be some accountability by all involved. When you take the law into your own hands, there is no accountability. "People being able to defend themselves", like I explain above, is vigilante justice. That has had almost uniformly extremely poor results whenever it has been instituted.

Also, civil societies and systems of justice, law, and order were created because we humans didn't like the "natural" freedom of the jungle, where everyone is responsible for defending themselves. In the jungle, only the strong survive and and the weak are eaten for lunch. Justice just means rule of the strong over the weak. I would like a system of law enforcement protecting my elderly grandmother who lives alone in another town when she goes grocery shopping. I don't want to have her need to carry an AK47 just to go grocery shopping. I also would like campus security available for my young daughter who is just going off to college by herself. I don't want her to have to walk around campus with an AK47 all the time and having to shoot people up that look a little suspicious. It's ridiculous.

 

[Rucker61]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

While a system of government and law and order is not perfect, ideally you have SOME system of checks and balances. There should, ideally, always be some accountability by all involved. When you take the law into your own hands, there is no accountability. "People being able to defend themselves", like I explain above, is vigilante justice. That has had almost uniformly extremely poor results whenever it has been instituted.

Are you stating that you are against individuals having the right to defend themselves, that such power should only reside with the State?

Also, civil societies and systems of justice, law, and order were created because we humans didn't like the "natural" freedom of the jungle, where everyone is responsible for defending themselves. In the jungle, only the strong survive and and the weak are eaten for lunch. Justice just means rule of the strong over the weak. I would like a system of law enforcement protecting my elderly grandmother who lives alone in another town when she goes grocery shopping. I don't want to have her need to carry an AK47 just to go grocery shopping. I also would like campus security available for my young daughter who is just going off to college by herself. I don't want her to have to walk around campus with an AK47 all the time and having to shoot people up that look a little suspicious. It's ridiculous.

No, your scenario is ridiculous. No one is saying that your relatives have to carry any firearm, much less an AK-47, to protect themselves. They are saying that they have the right and should be able to make the choice to do so.

If the police could protect us, we wouldn't have crime. The police have no Constitutional obligation to protect any individual.

 

[Anarchon]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

If the police could protect us, we wouldn't have crime.

This is astute. That police do protect us is an illusion, and also irrational.

People are essentially creating thugs in the hope they will protect us from thugs. It's strictly a feel-good measure that actually diminishes our safety. No world, and no person will ever be completely immune from the risks of bad actors, but the optimum situation for self-defense is where the maximum amount of power resides with the individual, not some distant, uncaring centralized state.

Ask criminals who they are afraid of: cops, or would-be victims that have guns and can defend themselves. It ain't the cops.

 

[vegas giants]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

This is astute. That police do protect us is an illusion, and also irrational.

People are essentially creating thugs in the hope they will protect us from thugs. It's strictly a feel-good measure that actually diminishes our safety. No world, and no person will ever be completely immune from the risks of bad actors, but the optimum situation for self-defense is where the maximum amount of power resides with the individual, not some distant, uncaring centralized state.

Ask criminals who they are afraid of: cops, or would-be victims that have guns and can defend themselves. It ain't the cops.

You can have both. Lots of countries have guns and gun control

 

[Anarchon]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

Sure. But friendships are voluntary. If one of my friends acts like a jerk and breaking the unwritten rules of friendship as I know them, I stop associating with him. I have that option. That's harder to do when you are dealing with a larger association. Let's say I have a neighbor who likes to blast his stereo at 3 am every night. I can't get any sleep. I keep telling him to stop, but he won't. What can I do? Go rough him up to teach him a lesson? Take his stereo and throw it out the 5th story window? What if, in my frustration and exasperation, I go too far and maim him or kill him? What if I kill him and his whole family in my anger? Who decides if I went too far, or what too far even is? If there are no clearly defined rules and no objective third party to mediate our dispute, and no effective means of enforcing those expectations and dispute settlements, you can see how things can get out of hand very quickly.

Like I said, any time vigilante justice has been tried, the results have not been very good. A system of law and order, although not perfect, tends to do better. I don't think this is a straw man, because if you take away law and law enforcement, that is in essence what is left. You have to take the law into your own hands. And if there is no law, you yourself are left with the responsibility of yourself being the legislator, law enforcement, judge, jury, and executioner. I am sure you can see how that can turn real ugly real fast.

Ever known a little guy that runs his mouth off when he has his big friend with him, but doesn't when he's not around? Well, the big guy is government. Absent government subsidizing the risk of being a bad actor, people tend to behave themselves.

 

[Anarchon]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

You can have both. Lots of countries have guns and gun control

You are displaying signs of cognitive dissonance. Throughout this thread, you have advocated for gun control, but have said you aren't trying to keep guns from anyone. These are diametrically opposed ideas which cannot both be true.

 

[vegas giants]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

You are displaying signs of cognitive dissonance. Throughout this thread, you have advocated for gun control, but have said you aren't trying to keep guns from anyone. These are diametrically opposed ideas which cannot both be true.

You can have guns and gun control. No one except the most extremist person, such as yourself, believes every single person in the US should be able to have a gun. It is a laughable position.

 

[Anarchon]

Re: Vegas Shooter Report is In

You can have guns and gun control. No one except the most extremist person, such as yourself, believes every single person in the US should be able to have a gun. It is a laughable position.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "argument to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so."

I haven't seen you make one coherent argument on this site yet. It must be difficult being you.