US School Spending up 120%+ over 30 years, test scores remain flat (1 Viewer)

[Gaugingcatenate]

Disabilities are not often "overcome" during a student's tenure (pulling that word out is a tell tale sign for a poor view of people with disabilities), no matter how much people without disabilities (including teachers and administrators) will it so. Disabilities stay with us throughout our lives. Some are able to do without over time, but most are not. Of course, this doesn't stop people like teachers and administrators from admonishing kids for somehow still having a disability.

The reason why I employed it is because it is a statement devoid of true experience. It diminishes the very real struggles we have to actually be treated with respect in the schools by instructors and administrators in our schools, let alone by those who are our peers.

Your statement offends not just because it is incorrect, but because it is the exact same nonsense people with disabilities and their families have to counteract day in and day out. Parents are not gaming a thing. More often than not, it is the schools that are gaming the system by not following the law or a student's plan. They have far more power (and use it) than families and their children do.

So yeah, of course I am going to take exception to your incredibly insensitive statements.

Waaaah waaaah wahhh

We all have to put up with things in our lives, get over it. I was a red head, at times it was almost neon orange in fact tho its all silver now...but back in the day was usually the only one in my classes growing up. Choruses of "Red head ginger bread, five cents a cabbage head" greeted me almost every day as I got on the bus in 1st and 2nd grade. Later, among other things it was "I would rather be dead than red in the head", Was called Opie for the red headed kid on Andy in Mayberry all through grade school, thought I had that behind me, but nooooo, Happy Days hit the scene in my high school years... I know how it feels to be looked down upon educationally, as well. Through no fault of my own I was held back in second grade, very demoralizing as a young kid... do I harp on any/ all of this? Am I oversensitive to it.

Do I or should I lobby against being treated like a red-headed stepchild. No, because we all have things we must overcome all throughout our lives.

You went full court press on me there, buddy. Just because you put something in place in the current system, that sometimes may help some, you make it sound like this, because it was a good idea started no doubt with good intentions and all the rest... that this is a program that works, a program that cannot be abused/misused, that is funded properly so all this is not just additional time mandates on an already overburdened teacher. The always added effort required to perform the additional tasks deemed necessary for the student as well as time documenting such so the school will not be sued, the additional knowledge in areas of accommodating these [ the broad spectrum includes autism, deaf-blindness, deafness, emotional disturbance, hearing impairment, intellectual disability, multiple disabilities, health impairment, specific learning disability, speech or language impairment, traumatic brain injury, visual impairment to name some that are in play ]... all this beyond the scope of the teacher's set curriculum that has time deadlines and testing upon which yearly evaluations are made. Most teachers have more than one prep [ a teacher may teach 6 hour classes a day, one planning period and 20-30 minutes for lunch, no breaks in between...and usually 3 or more of these are classes in different subject areas, i.e., a social studies teacher may teach Civics, Economics, World History and American History all in the same day, all requiring completely different preparations] all this additional knowledge, time and effort placed in the wheelhouse of the already overtaxed teacher who is mainly trying to perform the task of instructing, and managing, classes of 20-30 students that changes every hour in middle and high schools. Many with classes overloaded with students with varying exceptions and disabilities that the one teacher, without much additional assistance except an occasional discussion with the student's counselor when there is a spare moment.

And as teachers instructing these students for a year or so, they see who is really in need and who abuses. You think in this imperfect educational system that we are discussing here, that this is the one area that is not fraught with misuse and abuse? What is your basis, or perhaps what is your biais? You have a disability and are super sensitive... so we all have to be blind to the actual, what really happens on the ground in schools so you can feel better about yourself?

Nah.

 

[Mach]

Poverty contributes to the increases. Poverty also contributes to low test scores. I haven't seen any politician address how poverty impacts children yet.

In the first article it's commented that some of the greatest historic minds (plato, aristotle, socrates) were basically taught "on a rock". I think poverty is a different issue, and it's usually a symptom in the U.S., not a root cause, especially considering relative vs absolute measurements. That's a different, and good topic though. Despite lots of "break the cycle" poverty spending, we haven't broken any cycles...another question mark for sure.

 

[Mach]

At my kids school they have: Smartboards. No lockers. An excess of worksheets instead of homework and textbook based assignments completed on lined paper. An all new facility for the uprise in students - now 9th graders have their own school. Which also means more teachers and more busing routes. A new series of education buildings at the high school. A new stadium.

Yeah, we have a new $40M+ stadium, it's really mind boggling.

But what that money does not go to: EDUCATIONAL CONTENT / CURRICULUM CHANGES / QUALITY METHODS OF TEACHING- things like this.

Well, when they are held neither to education standards, nor strongly evaluated based on their education outcomes, why would the need...no, why would they WANT to spend it on "education"? No incentive to.

 

[Mach]

Sorry to have to bring up an inconvenient truth. Wealthy school districts are doing just fine with test scores. It's the poor districts that do not.

That's not what I've read. Even the wealthy/good schools are behind the best of global schools. It's across the board.

 

[QuadpolarNutjob]

figures are skewed as they include millions upon millions of inner city ghetto kids and illiterate illegal immigrants attending school in sanctuary cities. re-do the analysis including only the children of US citizens who are NOT on welfare and i imagine the figures change quite a bit.

that's racist?
that's reality.

 

[humbolt]

Looks like we need new tests.

 

[Mach]

Because the system of education is broken?

Notice a number of posters disagree.
We have "poverty", being stated as a big issue, and "family". Not the system, oh no, that's too obvious.

Look, when you hire a manger to grow business A, and they fail, you are supposed to berate their SPOUSE, and then pay them more. Its how we do things yo.

 

[Mach]

IOW, we have neither government nor free-markets improving our society and nation to the levels of many of our peer nations. So we flounder, and drift downward in many important quality of life issues.

Overall, yes, that's probably a high level description, no details on education though.
Liberals want to grow unions, government, but the political nature of it corrupts it into an efficient, impossible to change or fix mess. They also get confused when their pay/pension is tied to politics, it's hard to make the right choice.
Conservatives, what the heck do they want in education...creationism in schools? They pushed for vouchers some, and no child left behind, but none of it was a big deal really. It's like they tiptoe on this issue..

But then here comes Gates Foundation trying to help, and liberals AND conservatives oppose it....giving credence to what you wrote, neither are willing to help.

I do think that may be a common component regarding Health Care.
Healthcare also has a huge middle man (insurance, they have different interests) that decouples the buyer from the seller.
In education we have the bureaucracy/unions that have their own vested interests.

 

[Mach]

Strengthen the power of teachers (in both pay and institutional power) and weaken administrators. The results speak for themselves.

I disagree. While that may be possible to do in a "second improvement", I think doing it now is part of the issue.
Teachers want higher pay = higher cost
teachers want better benefits = higher cost
job security = higher cost, reduced performance
no objective measurement/testing = reduced performance

This is NOT a knock on teachers per se. Most of us, in any industry, in any nation, want the same things. This is however why we use markets, to allow these wants/needs to clash with the Parents wants/needs. And teachers (who are also parents), and parents (who value education/teachers) I'm pretty sure can figure it out, they do in every other industry.

2.) The United States has a very anti-intellectual, anti-education culture.

Absurd rhetoric. What statitistics do you have that parents don't want their children well educated? It's outrageous to suggest.
Even if it were the case, which it isn't, it would just be a symptom of our poor education system, this is not a root cause.

3.) We know how to impose positive changes, but parents rebel

Parents are the problem in our expensive/mediocre education system?
...I disagree, educate the kids and they become educated parents in any case.

4.) The United States is obsessed with "objective standards" and "rewarding winners" far more than they care about servicing students

Avoidance of wanting to be measured/evaluated, a common anti-reform position (see #1 above).
In the real world this is how everyone manages quality control. I don't mean for parts or mfg, I mean in any system. That the education system opposes it tooth and nail, is a critical issue.

5.) The average citizen, including the average parent, just doesn't give a flying ****.

Blaming the entire populace now, very good.

 

[Mach]

Everything I've read also indicates that even the better educated families, don't performs as well compared globally.

U.S. Students from Educated Families Lag in International Tests : Education Next
When viewed from a global perspective, U.S. schools seem to do as badly teaching those from better-educated families as they do teaching those from less well educated families. Overall, the U.S. proficiency rate in math (35 percent) places the country at the 27th rank among the 34 OECD countries that participated in the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA). That ranking is somewhat lower for students from advantaged backgrounds (28th) than for those from disadvantaged ones (20th).


Lacking good information, it has been easy even for sophisticated Americans to be seduced by apologists who would have the public believe the problems are simply those of poor kids in central city schools. Our results point in quite the opposite direction. We find that the international rankings of the United States and the individual states are not much different for students from advantaged backgrounds than for those from disadvantaged ones.

 

[eohrnberger]

Because the system of education is broken?

What else could you possibly call it when you keep spending ever more money, and get ever less results for it?

Pretty stupid. As are the calls for yet even more money, based on the 'keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result'.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Why does the United States spend so much on education per student compared to other nations, yet has mediocre outcomes?
At an increased education expense of around 120% (inflation adjusted) over 30 years...we have flat test scores to show for it, what's going on?

Education is the #1 long term solution to nearly every problem that arises (culture, poverty, wealth inequality, politics, the economy, careers) and yet its one of our worst performing areas. In every other area of industry productivity has dramatically INCREASED. In other areas of industry everyone copies our models. But it's gone dramatically backwards in education?

Brat: U.S. school spending up 375 percent over 30 years but test score remain flat | PolitiFact Virginia

Clearly there is something wrong, that's big, and obvious, why is not so well known?
Has any politician offered any reasonable solutions to of late from either party?

Flat vs expenses
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Staff vs students
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Parents, teachers and students.
Many just don't care.

There are other issues at hand, but at it's core is this.

In my area, you're more likely to see higher attendance at high school football games, than parent teacher night.

 

[Mach]

Parents, teachers and students.
Many just don't care.
There are other issues at hand, but at it's core is this.
In my area, you're more likely to see higher attendance at high school football games, than parent teacher night.

Same here. But then, why would a school focus so much on football if it were measured and weighed, and ultimate sank or swim on "education" outcomes? I don't think it would, or it would be rare.

If the education system can't educate the public from k-12 on the importance of you know, education, I think that's just another failure of that system. Not for everyone, outliers exist in all populations, and of course some families are resistant to education etc., no one doubts that. But those that point to those as the primary cause I think are just being evasive..for selfish reasons.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

That's not what I've read. Even the wealthy/good schools are behind the best of global schools. It's across the board.

I have read that family income is now nearly as strong as parental education in predicting children's achievement. I find the trend disturbing and needs to be discussed if we want to really change this problem.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Same here. But then, why would a school focus so much on football if it were measured and weighed, and ultimate sank or swim on "education" outcomes? I don't think it would, or it would be rare.

Actual human priorities where, entertainment > education.
People give lip service to wanting education, but they don't practice what they preach.
To me, it's a truth of economics.
When something is free (at least in the mind), it is treated as less valuable.

If the education system can't educate the public from k-12 on the importance of you know, education, I think that's just another failure of that system. Not for everyone, outliers exist in all populations, and of course some families are resistant to education etc., no one doubts that. But those that point to those as the primary cause I think are just being evasive..for selfish reasons.

I remember seeing somewhere that the average literacy level of the average American is about 7th or 8th grade.
If true, that's rather telling.
To me, we aren't educating to create a better human, able to deconstruct the world and reassemble it in a logical and reasonable way, as it is.
We are creating functional workers, end point.

 

[Mach]

Actual human priorities where, entertainment > education.

Are you suggesting these are two different things?

People give lip service to wanting education, but they don't practice what they preach.
To me, it's a truth of economics.When something is free (at least in the mind), it is treated as less valuable.

Yes. Sadly I think that's also an issue (and in healthcare). And it's not intentional really, it just happens. When it's "taken care of", we tend to delegate the entire thing, who wants to manage it? I use to directly manage operations (fun and problem solving), and when I moved back to purely delegating it, it was HARD to force myself to "manage" it from afar...and I had a huge incentive to do so, and I knew it front to back...yet it was so much easier to just let it go and hope it all goes well, and only get involved if it falls off the tracks.

To me, we aren't educating to create a better human, able to deconstruct the world and reassemble it in a logical and reasonable way, as it is.
We are creating functional workers, end point.

Perhaps. I don't think we even do a good job of functional workers though.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

In the first article it's commented that some of the greatest historic minds (plato, aristotle, socrates) were basically taught "on a rock". I think poverty is a different issue, and it's usually a symptom in the U.S., not a root cause, especially considering relative vs absolute measurements. That's a different, and good topic though. Despite lots of "break the cycle" poverty spending, we haven't broken any cycles...another question mark for sure.

Just an FYI, newer spending taking place over the many years has never been deemed to break the cycle of poverty but for schools to gain greater mandates to help these children coming in to schools with lack of resources at home.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Are you suggesting these are two different things?

For me, no.
I love learning new things.
For a lot of others, absolutely.

Yes. Sadly I think that's also an issue (and in healthcare). And it's not intentional really, it just happens. When it's "taken care of", we tend to delegate the entire thing, who wants to manage it? I use to directly manage operations (fun and problem solving), and when I moved back to purely delegating it, it was HARD to force myself to "manage" it from afar...and I had a huge incentive to do so, and I knew it front to back...yet it was so much easier to just let it go and hope it all goes well, and only get involved if it falls off the tracks.

It's a paradox, imo.
How to give something to everyone, at low to no cost and keep the value of it (in the mind) high.
At the moment I have only partial solutions (hybrid systems).
With that said, lots of people will reject it and that makes it largely unrealistic.

Perhaps. I don't think we even do a good job of functional workers though.

I tend to agree as well.
My state instituted a "worker" test designed by the ACT.
The Work Ready Skills test.
It was pathetically easy, basic skills like simple math, information finding and reading.
People had to take study classes for something that should be basic knowledge.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Notice a number of posters disagree.
We have "poverty", being stated as a big issue, and "family". Not the system, oh no, that's too obvious.

Look, when you hire a manger to grow business A, and they fail, you are supposed to berate their SPOUSE, and then pay them more. Its how we do things yo.

Who is saying nothing is wrong with the system? The problem is no one is addressing the real issues schools face and install worse band aids then true fixes. The gap has become grossly wider starting in the early 2000s with these horrible policies that have made the problem much worse.

 

[Eric7216]

It appears that NAEP reading scores only studies public schools. As those who can afford private schooling move their children out of public schools perhaps that accounts for some of the lack of improvement.
(In my personal opinion, it is parental abuse to send a child to public schools. People should do as our leaders and educators and send their children to private schools.)

 

[blackjack50]

All they're doing is this:

We have X # of students.
We threw Y # of dollars at schools.
We saw Z results.
We want different results.

Where, exactly, is all this money GOING? This is what's vital to grasp. What does $816 / student (quote) VS $200 / student (made up) even mean?

WHAT is being done - by the schools - with all that FUNDING?

At my kids school they have: Smartboards. No lockers. An excess of worksheets instead of homework and textbook based assignments completed on lined paper. An all new facility for the uprise in students - now 9th graders have their own school. Which also means more teachers and more busing routes. A new series of education buildings at the high school. A new stadium.

But what that money does not go to: EDUCATIONAL CONTENT / CURRICULUM CHANGES / QUALITY METHODS OF TEACHING- things like this.

Smartboards in all the classrooms? whoop de freaking do.

Smart boards are great educational devices that open up a huge world of learning that classrooms didn't really get before...well unless the teacher used a tv and had a science documentary.

Correct utilization of smart boards is important. Just putting them in does nothing. I gave my students projects. Assignments that made them learn material themselves. Concepts they wouldn't have from a work book. It is sad that now even college is teaching with rote memorization and few critical thinking skills

 

[Chomsky]

That's not what I've read. Even the wealthy/good schools are behind the best of global schools. It's across the board.

Overall, yes, that's probably a high level description, no details on education though.
Liberals want to grow unions, government, but the political nature of it corrupts it into an efficient, impossible to change or fix mess. They also get confused when their pay/pension is tied to politics, it's hard to make the right choice.
Conservatives, what the heck do they want in education...creationism in schools? They pushed for vouchers some, and no child left behind, but none of it was a big deal really. It's like they tiptoe on this issue..

But then here comes Gates Foundation trying to help, and liberals AND conservatives oppose it....giving credence to what you wrote, neither are willing to help.

I do think that may be a common component regarding Health Care.
Healthcare also has a huge middle man (insurance, they have different interests) that decouples the buyer from the seller.
In education we have the bureaucracy/unions that have their own vested interests.

Thank you for your reply, and yes I gave a very high level response, and yes again in that the response very much also applies to healthcare, as that is a favorite subject of mine.

To the first quote, I'm not sure I agree with it, but I didn't see the data supporting this, unless I missed it.

I don't have data at hand breaking-out the higher-end districts in relation to the world at large, but I moved out of the city to a 'burb with a great school district, and I believe it provides a competitive world-class education.

It has an ACT average of 27.5 putting them over the 90 percentile nationwide. I live in a pretty decent area (why I moved here), but the adjoining school district in a more affluent 'burb has been getting 29+ ACT averages. Both schools have multiple tracks, with the higher tracked kids getting scores significantly higher than the school averages. Quite a few students go on the elite schools, and some make it to the Ivys.

We spend 27K a year per student, with teachers starting at 85K during their probationary period. The average salary is 117K (incl elementary & middle school), but during a disciplinary hearing it came out that a long tenured H.S. teacher had a salary of just touching 150K. I do not know if H.S. teachers are paid higher than elementary teachers. All the financial numbers quoted are from around 10 years ago, and being union I suspect the numbers may have increased a bit since then but I don't know this for sure.

The district and adjoining districts are strongly union represented, as are all the local districts including the city, so it would seem there's more going on in poor performance areas than union troubles (though I'm not a fan of unions in the public sector). And while the salaries are probably substantial in national average terms, they are not that greatly different than those of the nearby major city where Salaries start at around 65K last I heard.

But it seems clear to me some public school systems do excel, and can provide a competitive education in global terms. My kids went to private Catholic Prep schools because we're Catholic, and also back in the city everyone strived to put their kids in Catholic Schools because the city public schools were for the most part pretty atrocious! So we followed that train of thought out here. I was later blown away to find the level of education in the local public district was very competitive to the local prep schools! And it even eclipsed one of them!

My wife and kids came to the conclusion that strictly in terms of academics, the local district is fully competitive with the Preps, and the Preps around here are for the most part pretty damn good! And there's another 3 or 4 neighboring or adjoining public districts that are of similar quality, so my district is not an isolated instance.

So I can't say I agree with your first statement, and also have issue with some of the second. I too used to blame poor education on government & unions, but have found unionized government run school systems that perform very well. There seems to be more factors at play here.

 

[ludin]

All they're doing is this:

We have X # of students.
We threw Y # of dollars at schools.
We saw Z results.
We want different results.

Where, exactly, is all this money GOING? This is what's vital to grasp. What does $816 / student (quote) VS $200 / student (made up) even mean?

WHAT is being done - by the schools - with all that FUNDING?

that right there is the question. more often than not the money is going toward administration staff.
very little of the funding actually makes it down to the teacher student level.

At my kids school they have: Smartboards. No lockers. An excess of worksheets instead of homework and textbook based assignments completed on lined paper. An all new facility for the uprise in students - now 9th graders have their own school. Which also means more teachers and more busing routes. A new series of education buildings at the high school. A new stadium.

This was going to be a given. Ebooks are way cheaper than paper back books. yes I get a slew of worksheets that my kids bring home I can't tell if they are doing well or not half the time unless I get a report card.

But what that money does not go to: EDUCATIONAL CONTENT / CURRICULUM CHANGES / QUALITY METHODS OF TEACHING- things like this.

Smartboards in all the classrooms? whoop de freaking do.

but but but common core was to fix all of that.

 

[ludin]

It appears that NAEP reading scores only studies public schools. As those who can afford private schooling move their children out of public schools perhaps that accounts for some of the lack of improvement.
(In my personal opinion, it is parental abuse to send a child to public schools. People should do as our leaders and educators and send their children to private schools.)

I would if I could but I can't afford it.
although I can't complain to much the school district we are in is about as good as the near by private schools.

 

[Fearandloathing]

What else could you possibly call it when you keep spending ever more money, and get ever less results for it?

Pretty stupid. As are the calls for yet even more money, based on the 'keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result'.

Very stupid, and myopic.

You may notice that when the discussion is about jobs, and minimum wage I raise this education issue. The top jobs in technology, health, transport and research are going to Canadians, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, and south Asians, who by the way immigrate legally.

If you want Americans in those jobs, you need to stop graduating illiterates