Don't believe the half-truths of genocide deniers. The original body count is not overestimated, it's vastly underestimated, since there are many thousands of people buried beneath the rubble. What this refers to is the verified identity of the bodies, not the number of bodies.
'If a Palestinian is blown up by the IDF, and he doesn't have a name, did that Palestinian actually die?'
This is the level of genocide denial we're at.
Your tagline asserts that the concept of a Jewish state of Israel having a right to exist is anti-semitic, and your posts have themselves been pretty anti-semitic. As have another poster's here.
I have always suspected the numbers were inflated.UN seemingly halves estimate of Gazan women, children killed
The UN also highlighted that the plurality of identified fatalities were men (40%), while children were (32%) and women (20%).www.jpost.com
That's what happens when you put your trust in Islamist genocidal terrorists for reporting the casualties of their own war.
You end up promoting absolute lies.
I live in a universe where words have meaning. Genocide does not apply to what Israel is doing. It is Hamas that wants genocide and who would carry it out were the balance of power in their favor. And thanks for injecting skin color which has nothing to do with the issue.Brown people, without power and living in a foreign land are generally not considered full humans by the right-wing, so it would actually be consistent with your moral philosophy to say this. I don't think you're lying, for what its worth. I think just think you live in a different moral universe than me.
So you oppose a Palestinian state then too, right?I think all ethno-religious states, that demand supremacy of one ethnic group over another, are inherently anti-democratic will inevitably go down the path of full-blown fascism. I believe that about Nazi Germany, I believe that about India, I believe that about Israel.
I am consistent. Are you?
What is Israel to do? The problem is that telling it not to use force in self-defense is telling it to let Hamas continue as it promises in its missions of destroying Israel and killing all the Jews. That's not a moral position, and saying "I just want the fighting to stop" isn't an out. You can't just want that. If you want that you are fine with the consequences of it, and the consequences here would be Hamas left free to murder Israeli Jews whenever it wants without fear of retaliation -- perhaps even from the position of being the terrorist government of a newly established Palestine.
That's just reality, and reality doesn't go away because we find it abhorrent. It's easy to arrive at a simple-sounding solution if the complexity of the situation is ignored. And that simple-sounding solution is not a moral one if it ends up meaning in practical reality "I don't care about Israeli dead. I only care about Palestinian dead".
At any rate, this thread shows just how successful Hamas propaganda is. We caught a glimpse when Hamas blew up its own hospital, 'conscientious objectors' accepted their word when they blamed Israel, raged about 'genocide', and then when the truth came out the people who did that didn't give a shit. They were on to the next unvetted anti-Israel accusation.
So we get to here and the number of deaths vastly lowered, with a good half of them or so Hamas terrorists (which of course Hamas counts as 'civilians') and it's oh I don't care Israel shouldn't fight and no I won't think about it further. But it does matter!
Well, Israel knows it has to fight because no matter what people scream at it, it has a duty to defend its citizens and that duty includes use of mass force if necessary. You can't tell a nation that it's not allowed to fight back against its terrorist group dedicated to its complete extermination just so long as that group makes sure to blend in with civilians. That's not any more moral than saying Gaza should be flattened entirely to teach a lesson.
An actual solution? I have no idea.
Precise locations of red lines? I don't know.
But I do know Israel has a right to fight and must, seeing as everything else has always failed; failed because of Hamas's actions.
That's just reality, and reality doesn't go away because we find it abhorrent. It's easy to arrive at a simple-sounding solution if the complexity of the situation is ignored. And that simple-sounding solution is not a moral one if it ends up meaning in practical reality "I don't care about Israeli dead. I only care about Palestinian dead".
You and I share the belief that Israeli and Palestinian lives are equal. The problem is that Hamas considers Israeli lives to be of no value and Palestinian lives to be a worthy sacrificeI'm not going to pretend that the civilian toll isn't significant so that it makes anyone feel better. I was sickened when I saw the images of the kids brutally slaughtered in Israel on October the 7th and I'm sickened when I see images of Palestinian children with half their faces missing and deceased. They are not isolated incidents. It's happening multiple times daily. I'm not going to pretend it's not happening or sit back and say nothing.
Why is it not ok to mention the toll on both sides without having to hash out years and years of ****ing talking points that NEVER get solved. What is so wrong with trying to stay focused on the human cost???
I don't know what the solution is, (preferably it is one that doesn't involve so many civilvian casualties), but that doesn't mean I just throw my life principles and humanity away and pretend that Palestinian civilian lives are worthless.
I'm not killing Israelis. I'm not killing Palestinians. I've been criticizing Hamas longer than you have been a member here but I have never held a position that Palestinian civilians lives are worthless and don't matter. I'm here reminding people that Palestinian kids lives are just as valuable as anyone elses. Whether you or Hamas or anyone else believes otherwise.
What is Israel to do? The problem is that telling it not to use force in self-defense …
Every one of those civilian deaths are tragic. Their blood is on the hands of the murderous terrorists who use them as human shields.UN seemingly halves estimate of Gazan women, children killed
The UN also highlighted that the plurality of identified fatalities were men (40%), while children were (32%) and women (20%).www.jpost.com
That's what happens when you put your trust in Islamist genocidal terrorists for reporting the casualties of their own war.
You end up promoting absolute lies.
We also have to keep in mind kids as young as 10 serve in the military Hamas there. These videos are from before the latest war. It's horrible. I feel so sorry for boys growing up in conflict
After previous incursions into Gaza by the IDF (eg 'Cast Lead'), Israeli intelligence concurred with the casualty numbers provided by the Ministry of Health, and confirmed they were largely accurate.Considering that Hamas likely believe their own propaganda, they're probably OVER estimating the number of Hamas killed. They're less concerned with world opinion than Palestinian opinion, so of course they would portray themselves as matyrs.
It's also interesting that nobody ever quotes Israeli estimates. Is Israel silent on the subject, and if so why? Or do they simply have no idea how many people their airstrikes are killing, and no interest in finding out? Or ... as is most likely ... are they claiming every death to be a Hamas death, and nobody outside of Israel is taking that seriously?
Strange that Israeli military intelligence agrees with the data provided by the Ministry of Health in Gaza.UN blames ‘fog of war’ for major overcounting of Gazan child deaths
“It’s outrageous that only seven months later, the United Nations is questioning the Hamas-supplied casualty numbers.”www.israeltoday.co.il
The UN blames its mistaken use of Hamas' manipulated numbers on "the fog of war".
Strange how there wasn't any 'fog of war' when they used Hamas numbers and took them at face value for 7 months completely justifying its propaganda.
"A terrorist is someone who has a bomb, but not an air force". William Blum.If they're shooting at your civilians, bombing them or kidnapping them, they're a terrorist. If they're planning to do that, they're also a terrorist but you'll need a trial to be sure.
If they live in Afghanistan they're probably NOT a terrorist. If they live in Gaza, they're probably NOT a terrorist. If we extend the definition of terrorists to anyone who doesn't risk their life rebelling against a terrorist government, then half the world is guilty and can be exterminated without a trial or declaration of war.
Governments can be terrorists too, if you use the definition of targeting civilians for a political, nationalist or religious reason. Civilians should never be held responsible for what their government does.
If that's too complicated for you: fight Hamas because they're terrorists. But don't use terrorist means to do so.
It actually does not.Strange that Israeli military intelligence agrees with the data provided by the Ministry of Health in Gaza.
Israeli Intelligence Has Deemed Hamas-Run Health Ministry's Death Toll Figures Generally Accurate
Senior Israel officials are using the Gaza Health Ministry's death numbers internally, months after both Israel and the U.S. claimed those figures should not be trusted.www.vice.com
Would you like some more evidence, or would it be too embarrassing; and why does the size or political lean of the source matter? Facts are facts. 'Deep Throat', whose evidence bought down Nixon, was just one person.It actually does not.
The Vice article you're quoting is using "Mekomit" (or +972mag) as a source for the claim, which is a small far-left paper in Israel and the one behind that piece simply claims he "talked to Israeli intelligence officials" which is highly dubious.
And now we know that not even the UN are agreeing with that "data" by Hamas anymore.
I have seen no evidence presented, you just cite the claims made by Yuval Abraham from +972mag (a small far-left paper) or some articles that quote him and his highly dubious claim that he had been talking to Israeli intelligence officials.Would you like some more evidence, or would it be too embarrassing; and why does the size or political lean of the source matter? Facts are facts. 'Deep Throat', whose evidence bought down Nixon, was just one person.
More lies from the UN after they were caught lying.You also need to keep up with the news. This, from a few hours ago:
UN denies Gaza death toll of women and children has been revised down
Spokesperson says confusion results from Gaza health ministry’s new way of classifying those not yet fully identifiedwww.theguardian.com
Deny, deny, deny. It's all you have. Numbers get corrected and updated constantly-especially during ongoing conflicts. Casualty statistics are not static, and are increasing even as I type this. Got any more excuses? No, the only 'truth' you and all the other Zionists recognise is unconditional support for the illusion of an entirely innocent Israel. Is that about right?I have seen no evidence presented, you just cite the claims made by Yuval Abraham from +972mag (a small far-left paper) or some articles that quote him and his highly dubious claim that he had been talking to Israeli intelligence officials.
I'm sorry but that's not evidence, that's just delusional.
More lies from the UN after they were caught lying.
On May 6, the UN published data showing that 34,735 people had reportedly been killed in Gaza, including over 9,500 women and over 14,500 children.
On May 8, the UN published data showing 34,844 people had reportedly been killed, including 4,959 women and 7,797 children.
They literally claimed numbers that weren't true and now they're saying it's the "fog of war" and "they're simply classifying those unidentified in a new way".
How embarrassing must it be to be someone who takes the word of terrorists (or the UN) for truth.
Oh look, you're losing it and start calling people "Zionists" as if it's an insult again.Deny, deny, deny. It's all you have. Numbers get corrected and updated constantly-especially during ongoing conflicts. Casualty statistics are not static, and are increasing even as I type this. Got any more excuses? No, the only 'truth' you and all the other Zionists recognise is unconditional support for the illusion of an entirely innocent Israel. Is that about right?
Nonsense, and you know it. Your posts are classic hasbara, and you're only fooling yourself. I'm not the only one to recognise the obvious. While you're here, could you accuse me of anti-Semitism and support for Hamas again? You must have forgotten.Oh look, you're losing it and start calling people "Zionists" as if it's an insult again.
I'm sorry that reality is something you're not willing to recognize but that's just how it works.
This isn't just some "correction of numbers" - it means the UN was pushing completely false statistics on the casualty numbers and other people took it at face value and believed it while they were lying and only now admit to be lying.
Again, must be embarrassing to be someone who fell for the words of terrorists.
Deranged reply.Nonsense, and you know it. Your posts are classic hasbara, and you're only fooling yourself. I'm not the only one to recognise the obvious. While you're here, could you accuse me of anti-Semitism and support for Hamas again? You must have forgotten.
Yet you support a deranged criminal, NetanyahuDeranged reply.
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