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UN seemingly halves estimate of Gazan women, children killed (1 Viewer)

Apocalypse

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
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UN seemingly halves estimate of Gazan women, children killed​

The UN also highlighted that the plurality of identified fatalities were men (40%), while children were (32%) and women (20%).

The United Nations seemingly halved the estimated number of women and children killed in Gaza, according to UN data published on May 6 and 8.

The UN published the number of fatalities reported by the Hamas-run Gaza Ministry of Health or the Government Media Office in Gaza and Israeli authorities.

The UN provided a disclaimer below the data: "The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures."
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On May 6, the UN published data showing that 34,735 people had reportedly been killed in Gaza, including over 9,500 women and over 14,500 children.

On May 8, the UN published data showing 34,844 people had reportedly been killed, including 4,959 women and 7,797 children.

Questions over data accuracy

This comes after months of accusations for leading statisticians that the numbers produced by the Gazan authorities cannot possibly be accurate.

Washington Institute for Near East Policy released a report in January that showed major discrepancies in the fatality reports. They concluded such discrepancies were most likely caused by manipulation.

Professor Abraham Wyner also told Tablet Magazine that the rate of deaths was very unnatural and climbed far too regularly.

He claimed that in war, deaths should be irregular as the intensity of war is irregular, but that the death numbers climbed by 270 plus/minus 15%, which he says is statistically impossible.
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www.jpost.com

UN seemingly halves estimate of Gazan women, children killed

The UN also highlighted that the plurality of identified fatalities were men (40%), while children were (32%) and women (20%).
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com

That's what happens when you put your trust in Islamist genocidal terrorists for reporting the casualties of their own war.
You end up promoting absolute lies.
 
What are the new figures based on then? If Hamas are liars, then shouldn't the UN give reasons to publish some other figure?

7.8 thousand children is still damning, btw. Not even America tries to justify such slaughter of innocents. The US risks its own military going door to door, and only shooting combatants who shoot at them. This is what Israel should do, except that an IDF member is worth more to them than 6 Palestinian children. Israel does not need to be so brutal, they do it because they are cowards.
 
Don't believe the half-truths of genocide deniers. The original body count is not overestimated, it's vastly underestimated, since there are many thousands of people buried beneath the rubble. What this refers to is the verified identity of the bodies, not the number of bodies.

'If a Palestinian is blown up by the IDF, and he doesn't have a name, did that Palestinian actually die?'

This is the level of genocide denial we're at.
 
I just know that it's too many.

I listen to and trust those returning. The stories of civilian deaths are horrific. So many of them children.

Head on over to X if you don't believe me. Twitter is basically a snuff site. Beyond repulsive Your eyes won't lie.

Anyone who considers civilian lives equal will be sickened.
 
Dans La Lune said:
Don't believe the half-truths of genocide deniers. The original body count is not overestimated, it's vastly underestimated, since there are many thousands of people buried beneath the rubble. What this refers to is the verified identity of the bodies, not the number of bodies.

'If a Palestinian is blown up by the IDF, and he doesn't have a name, did that Palestinian actually die?'

This is the level of genocide denial we're at.
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Considering that Hamas likely believe their own propaganda, they're probably OVER estimating the number of Hamas killed. They're less concerned with world opinion than Palestinian opinion, so of course they would portray themselves as matyrs.

It's also interesting that nobody ever quotes Israeli estimates. Is Israel silent on the subject, and if so why? Or do they simply have no idea how many people their airstrikes are killing, and no interest in finding out? Or ... as is most likely ... are they claiming every death to be a Hamas death, and nobody outside of Israel is taking that seriously?
 
Ug make hammer said:
What are the new figures based on then? If Hamas are liars, then shouldn't the UN give reasons to publish some other figure?

7.8 thousand children is still damning, btw. Not even America tries to justify such slaughter of innocents. The US risks its own military going door to door, and only shooting combatants who shoot at them. This is what Israel should do, except that an IDF member is worth more to them than 6 Palestinian children. Israel does not need to be so brutal, they do it because they are cowards.
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The US regularly bombs places from the air and caused hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in the Mideast.
And the IDF does engage with great numbers of ground forces in the Gaza war, sometimes it causes more casualties depending on the nature.

I'd advise you to stick to topics you're familiar with.
 
Ug make hammer said:
Considering that Hamas likely believe their own propaganda, they're probably OVER estimating the number of Hamas killed. They're less concerned with world opinion than Palestinian opinion, so of course they would portray themselves as matyrs.

It's also interesting that nobody ever quotes Israeli estimates. Is Israel silent on the subject, and if so why? Or do they simply have no idea how many people their airstrikes are killing, and no interest in finding out? Or ... as is most likely ... are they claiming every death to be a Hamas death, and nobody outside of Israel is taking that seriously?
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Hamas' interest is first and foremost to fool the world and gain the help of its useful idiots, which is why it doesn't claim that any of its members are killed.
It also doesn't admit that many of its members are underage and thus enter the "children" death toll.
 
Apocalypse said:
Hamas' interest is first and foremost to fool the world and gain the help of its useful idiots, which is why it doesn't claim that any of its members are killed.
It also doesn't admit that many of its members are underage and thus enter the "children" death toll.
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Meanwhile Israel assumes that any male over of the age of 10 is Hamas, and that's generally how they count the amount of terrorists they kill.

If they can pick up a rock, they deserve to be tortured and then killed. What a great society.
 
Fletch said:
Actually, no one should believe the genocide liars. Anyone willing to lie about that cant be believed about anything.
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Agreed. Genocide denying is also genocide lying.
 
Serenity said:
I just know that it's too many.

I listen to and trust those returning. The stories of civilian deaths are horrific. So many of them children.

Head on over to X if you don't believe me. Twitter is basically a snuff site. Beyond repulsive Your eyes won't lie.
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Your eyes lie to you all the time. Television and video in general, demonstrate that "seeing is believing" but for instance, people ALWAYS think there's a crime wave even when crime is at historic lows. Because they forget what they saw earlier and remember most keenly what they saw recently. The visual sense responds to novelty, and it's blind to trends or any rational sense of the size of the problem.

NUMBERS don't lie. Even the new lower estimate is 6,000 children. That's over a hundred elementary schools worth of children.

Serenity said:
Anyone who considers civilian lives equal will be sickened.
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Indeed. I would like if Israel said how many Hamas members there are (since their war aim is to eliminate Hamas) and how many they have already killed. Then we would know approximately how many civilians will have to die before Israel is done.

But of course "eliminate Hamas" is just propaganda. Israel must know that it is recruiting terrorists every time it kills a civilian. There is no rational war aim, even after months of 99% success. Israel is still engaged in vengeance, against its own interests even.

Israel should take the advice of the United States, which has recent experience of a war of vengeance. Iraq certainly, and Afghanistan arguably, were wars of vengeance for 9/11. By the time those wars were over, the US had spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives, only to have more enemies in the region than they had before. Americans still talk about the wars, but they almost never mention 9/11 itself. It will be just so for the Israeli people. They will vote Likud out, make peace with Palestine, and then wonder why Palestinians still don't trust them.
 
Ug make hammer said:
What are the new figures based on then? If Hamas are liars, then shouldn't the UN give reasons to publish some other figure?

7.8 thousand children is still damning, btw. Not even America tries to justify such slaughter of innocents. The US risks its own military going door to door, and only shooting combatants who shoot at them. This is what Israel should do, except that an IDF member is worth more to them than 6 Palestinian children. Israel does not need to be so brutal, they do it because they are cowards.
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Since Hamas started this war, since Hamas uses women and children as human shields, since Palestinians multiply like rabbits, why would Israel value Palestinians equal to its own people?
 
Fletch said:
There is no genocide going on in Gaza. Thats just the latest in a long, long list of liberal Big Lies.
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Brown people, without power and living in a foreign land are generally not considered full humans by the right-wing, so it would actually be consistent with your moral philosophy to say this. I don't think you're lying, for what its worth. I think just think you live in a different moral universe than me.
 
Dans La Lune said:
So how does Israel count terrorists?
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Dead Palestinians. Dead men tell no tales ... nor do dead women or children. They "give aid and comfort" or they will one day grow up to be terrorists (gee, I wonder why) and in any case they're "on the same side" as Hamas.

Westerners can't claim to be innocent in this form of war. We used it in WW2, against Germany AND Japan, and we threatened the whole world with it in the Cold War. It's the dictum of "total war" and enabled by technology. Palestinians don't have that option, they have some crappy missiles which can't beat Iron Dome and even if they did, have no precision guidance so they hit farmland 99% of the time. But to Israel, what matters is the stated intention of Hamas (to eliminate Israel) and for that all the Gaza people are guilty.

I've just noticed that I use "Gaza" and "Palestinian" interchangeably, and I really shouldn't do that. The West Bank is ruled by Fatah, not Hamas, plus there are expatriates who identify as Palestinian even though they live in peaceful countries.
 
Apocalypse said:
How does anyone count terrorists?
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Oh, that's a debate I'd love to have. Are you trying to give me a gift? Israel actually classifies rock throwing as full-blown terrorism. In addition, terrorism is almost exclusively used as a tool of government power, often giving cover for whatever punishment the government deems fit, weather its imprisonment or extrajudicial killings, military invasion or the wholesale slaughter of entire communities. Or for non-violent prisoners deemed too problematic for the state.

Nelson Mandela was officially classified as a terrorist by the US government until 2008. The anti-genocide student protestors have been called terrorists by the Israeli government. A term THIS arbitrary has no real value outside of propaganda purposes, and is simply a tool of government oppression and censorship.

With that said, how many terrorists have the IDF killed?
 
Apocalypse said:
How does anyone count terrorists?
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If they're shooting at your civilians, bombing them or kidnapping them, they're a terrorist. If they're planning to do that, they're also a terrorist but you'll need a trial to be sure.

If they live in Afghanistan they're probably NOT a terrorist. If they live in Gaza, they're probably NOT a terrorist. If we extend the definition of terrorists to anyone who doesn't risk their life rebelling against a terrorist government, then half the world is guilty and can be exterminated without a trial or declaration of war.

Governments can be terrorists too, if you use the definition of targeting civilians for a political, nationalist or religious reason. Civilians should never be held responsible for what their government does.

If that's too complicated for you: fight Hamas because they're terrorists. But don't use terrorist means to do so.
 
Fletch said:
There is no genocide going on in Gaza.
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OK, but it's still a war crime. Israel and the US are signatories to the fourth Geneva Convention, protecting civilians in time of war.

Fletch said:
Thats just the latest in a long, long list of liberal Big Lies.
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*snort*
 
Serenity said:
I just know that it's too many.

I listen to and trust those returning. The stories of civilian deaths are horrific. So many of them children.

Head on over to X if you don't believe me. Twitter is basically a snuff site. Beyond repulsive Your eyes won't lie.

Anyone who considers civilian lives equal will be sickened.
Click to expand...

What is Israel to do? The problem is that telling it not to use force in self-defense is telling it to let Hamas continue as it promises in its missions of destroying Israel and killing all the Jews. That's not a moral position, and saying "I just want the fighting to stop" isn't an out. You can't just want that. If you want that you are fine with the consequences of it, and the consequences here would be Hamas left free to murder Israeli Jews whenever it wants without fear of retaliation -- perhaps even from the position of being the terrorist government of a newly established Palestine.

That's just reality, and reality doesn't go away because we find it abhorrent. It's easy to arrive at a simple-sounding solution if the complexity of the situation is ignored. And that simple-sounding solution is not a moral one if it ends up meaning in practical reality "I don't care about Israeli dead. I only care about Palestinian dead".



At any rate, this thread shows just how successful Hamas propaganda is. We caught a glimpse when Hamas blew up its own hospital, 'conscientious objectors' accepted their word when they blamed Israel, raged about 'genocide', and then when the truth came out the people who did that didn't give a shit. They were on to the next unvetted anti-Israel accusation.

So we get to here and the number of deaths vastly lowered, with a good half of them or so Hamas terrorists (which of course Hamas counts as 'civilians') and it's oh I don't care Israel shouldn't fight and no I won't think about it further. But it does matter!



Well, Israel knows it has to fight because no matter what people scream at it, it has a duty to defend its citizens and that duty includes use of mass force if necessary. You can't tell a nation that it's not allowed to fight back against its terrorist group dedicated to its complete extermination just so long as that group makes sure to blend in with civilians. That's not any more moral than saying Gaza should be flattened entirely to teach a lesson.

An actual solution? I have no idea.
Precise locations of red lines? I don't know.

But I do know Israel has a right to fight and must, seeing as everything else has always failed; failed because of Hamas's actions.
 
Ug make hammer said:
OK, but it's still a war crime. Israel and the US are signatories to the fourth Geneva Convention, protecting civilians in time of war.



*snort*
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Since you agree that its not genocide, why not take issue with the person claiming that it is?
 
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