• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Ukraine just rewrote the rules of war

P

Pyrite

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 8, 2023
Messages
27,714
Reaction score
29,959
Location
Ohio, USA
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal

Max Boot

On Sunday morning, Dec. 7, 1941, the Imperial Japanese Navy rewrote the rules of warfare. Almost no one had imagined that the Japanese could sneak across an entire ocean to attack an “impregnable fortress,” as U.S. strategists had described Hawaii. Yet that is just what they did. Japanese aircraft launched from six aircraft carriers managed to destroy or damage 328 U.S. aircraft and 19 U.S. Navy ships, including eight battleships. The Pearl Harbor attack signaled the ascendance of aircraft carriers as the dominant force in naval warfare.

The Ukrainians rewrote the rules of warfare again on Sunday. The Russian high command must have been as shocked as the Americans were in 1941 when the Ukrainians carried out a surprise attack against five Russian air bases located far from the front — two of them thousands of miles away in the Russian Far North and Siberia. The Ukrainian intelligence service, known as the SBU, managed to sneak large numbers of drones deep inside Russia in wooden cabins transported by truck, then launch them by remote control.

President Volodymyr Zelensky claimed that Operation Spiderweb, as the Ukrainians are calling it, destroyed or disabled a third of the bombers Russia has been using to launch long-range cruise missiles against Ukraine. Among the Russian planes that were hit, reportedly, were Tu-95 and Tu-22 bombers and A-50 airborne early warning and control aircraft, akin to the U.S. AWACs. (There is no independent confirmation yet of the damage.)

Little wonder that Russian military bloggers rushed to compare Sunday’s attack to the one on Pearl Harbor 84 years ago. The analogy is inapt in that, while the Pearl Harbor attack signaled the start of a new war, the airfield attack against Russia was simply another attempt by Ukrainians to defend themselves against the unprovoked war of aggression launched by Vladimir Putin in 2022. But the analogy might make sense in that both attacks could signal the obsolescence of once dominant weapons systems: battleships in 1941, manned aircraft today. Swarms of Ukrainian drones that probably cost tens of thousands of dollars to build in total might have inflicted $2 billion of damage on Russia’s most sophisticated aircraft.

In the process, the Ukrainians revealed a vulnerability that should give every general in the world sleepless nights. If the Ukrainians could sneak drones so close to major air bases in a police state such as Russia, what is to prevent the Chinese from doing the same with U.S. air bases? Or the Pakistanis with Indian air bases? Or the North Koreans with South Korean air bases?...
 
Pyrite said:
In the process, the Ukrainians revealed a vulnerability that should give every general in the world sleepless nights. If the Ukrainians could sneak drones so close to major air bases in a police state such as Russia, what is to prevent the Chinese from doing the same with U.S. air bases? Or the Pakistanis with Indian air bases? Or the North Koreans with South Korean air bases?...
Click to expand...

It would be easy in the US with our freedoms - and the threat makes a good excuse to reduce those freedoms.
 
Pyrite said:

Max Boot

On Sunday morning, Dec. 7, 1941, the Imperial Japanese Navy rewrote the rules of warfare. Almost no one had imagined that the Japanese could sneak across an entire ocean to attack an “impregnable fortress,” as U.S. strategists had described Hawaii. Yet that is just what they did. Japanese aircraft launched from six aircraft carriers managed to destroy or damage 328 U.S. aircraft and 19 U.S. Navy ships, including eight battleships. The Pearl Harbor attack signaled the ascendance of aircraft carriers as the dominant force in naval warfare.

The Ukrainians rewrote the rules of warfare again on Sunday. The Russian high command must have been as shocked as the Americans were in 1941 when the Ukrainians carried out a surprise attack against five Russian air bases located far from the front — two of them thousands of miles away in the Russian Far North and Siberia. The Ukrainian intelligence service, known as the SBU, managed to sneak large numbers of drones deep inside Russia in wooden cabins transported by truck, then launch them by remote control.

President Volodymyr Zelensky claimed that Operation Spiderweb, as the Ukrainians are calling it, destroyed or disabled a third of the bombers Russia has been using to launch long-range cruise missiles against Ukraine. Among the Russian planes that were hit, reportedly, were Tu-95 and Tu-22 bombers and A-50 airborne early warning and control aircraft, akin to the U.S. AWACs. (There is no independent confirmation yet of the damage.)

Little wonder that Russian military bloggers rushed to compare Sunday’s attack to the one on Pearl Harbor 84 years ago. The analogy is inapt in that, while the Pearl Harbor attack signaled the start of a new war, the airfield attack against Russia was simply another attempt by Ukrainians to defend themselves against the unprovoked war of aggression launched by Vladimir Putin in 2022. But the analogy might make sense in that both attacks could signal the obsolescence of once dominant weapons systems: battleships in 1941, manned aircraft today. Swarms of Ukrainian drones that probably cost tens of thousands of dollars to build in total might have inflicted $2 billion of damage on Russia’s most sophisticated aircraft.

In the process, the Ukrainians revealed a vulnerability that should give every general in the world sleepless nights. If the Ukrainians could sneak drones so close to major air bases in a police state such as Russia, what is to prevent the Chinese from doing the same with U.S. air bases? Or the Pakistanis with Indian air bases? Or the North Koreans with South Korean air bases?...
Click to expand...

more from Max Boot's article in wapo:

...Militaries that thought they had secured their air bases with electrified fences and guard posts will now have to reckon with the threat from the skies posed by cheap, ubiquitous drones that can be easily modified for military use. This will necessitate a massive investment in counter-drone systems. Money spent on conventional manned weapons systems increasingly looks to be as wasted as spending on the cavalry in the 1930s....

While signaling Ukrainian resolve, Sunday’s attack could also undermine nuclear stability, because the same bombers that launch conventional cruise missiles against Ukraine are also designed to launch nuclear weapons. This should serve to remind us of why it is so dangerous to have such a chaotic U.S. administration at such a dangerous moment. At a time like this, it would be nice if the president had a fully staffed National Security Council led by a tested, seasoned adviser — rather than an NSC that is led by a moonlighting secretary of state and that has just been purged of many of its most experienced staffers....
 
Pyrite said:

Max Boot

On Sunday morning, Dec. 7, 1941, the Imperial Japanese Navy rewrote the rules of warfare. Almost no one had imagined that the Japanese could sneak across an entire ocean to attack an “impregnable fortress,” as U.S. strategists had described Hawaii. Yet that is just what they did. Japanese aircraft launched from six aircraft carriers managed to destroy or damage 328 U.S. aircraft and 19 U.S. Navy ships, including eight battleships. The Pearl Harbor attack signaled the ascendance of aircraft carriers as the dominant force in naval warfare.

The Ukrainians rewrote the rules of warfare again on Sunday. The Russian high command must have been as shocked as the Americans were in 1941 when the Ukrainians carried out a surprise attack against five Russian air bases located far from the front — two of them thousands of miles away in the Russian Far North and Siberia. The Ukrainian intelligence service, known as the SBU, managed to sneak large numbers of drones deep inside Russia in wooden cabins transported by truck, then launch them by remote control.

President Volodymyr Zelensky claimed that Operation Spiderweb, as the Ukrainians are calling it, destroyed or disabled a third of the bombers Russia has been using to launch long-range cruise missiles against Ukraine. Among the Russian planes that were hit, reportedly, were Tu-95 and Tu-22 bombers and A-50 airborne early warning and control aircraft, akin to the U.S. AWACs. (There is no independent confirmation yet of the damage.)

Little wonder that Russian military bloggers rushed to compare Sunday’s attack to the one on Pearl Harbor 84 years ago. The analogy is inapt in that, while the Pearl Harbor attack signaled the start of a new war, the airfield attack against Russia was simply another attempt by Ukrainians to defend themselves against the unprovoked war of aggression launched by Vladimir Putin in 2022. But the analogy might make sense in that both attacks could signal the obsolescence of once dominant weapons systems: battleships in 1941, manned aircraft today. Swarms of Ukrainian drones that probably cost tens of thousands of dollars to build in total might have inflicted $2 billion of damage on Russia’s most sophisticated aircraft.

In the process, the Ukrainians revealed a vulnerability that should give every general in the world sleepless nights. If the Ukrainians could sneak drones so close to major air bases in a police state such as Russia, what is to prevent the Chinese from doing the same with U.S. air bases? Or the Pakistanis with Indian air bases? Or the North Koreans with South Korean air bases?...
Click to expand...
Precisely nothing.

Of course, when it happens to the U.S. the same people cheering it now will howl about it being “terrorism”, which is rather hilarious.
 
The UK media are stressing that Trump was not told in advance of the brilliant Ukrainian attack. The near unamynous public reaction is that OF COURSE old blabber mouth would not be told anything of importance by anyone who valued their security. I doubt if many i the US realize tat their President in now an irrelevant figure of contempt and derision.
 
Pyrite said:
. If the Ukrainians could sneak drones so close to major air bases in a police state such as Russia, what is to prevent the Chinese from doing the same with U.S. air bases?
Click to expand...
Can you tell an Ukrainian national from a Russian national? If a bunch of Asian looking men suddenly are transporting stuff in trucks..it will raise an alarm. I mean how many Asian truck drivers are there in the US.

Pyrite said:
Or the Pakistanis with Indian air bases?
Click to expand...
That is possible..and the other way around. Fundamentally the same people.

Pyrite said:
Or the North Koreans with South Korean air bases?...
Click to expand...
As the Indian - Pakistani situation.
 
PeteEU said:
Can you tell an Ukrainian national from a Russian national? If a bunch of Asian looking men suddenly are transporting stuff in trucks..it will raise an alarm. I mean how many Asian truck drivers are there in the US.


That is possible..and the other way around. Fundamentally the same people.


As the Indian - Pakistani situation.
Click to expand...
If that’s going to be a problem, they’ll pay a Syrian or something to do it. Many of those guys have blond hair and blue eyes. Easy.
 
Pyrite said:
more from Max Boot's article in wapo:

...Militaries that thought they had secured their air bases with electrified fences and guard posts will now have to reckon with the threat from the skies posed by cheap, ubiquitous drones that can be easily modified for military use. This will necessitate a massive investment in counter-drone systems. Money spent on conventional manned weapons systems increasingly looks to be as wasted as spending on the cavalry in the 1930s....

While signaling Ukrainian resolve, Sunday’s attack could also undermine nuclear stability, because the same bombers that launch conventional cruise missiles against Ukraine are also designed to launch nuclear weapons. This should serve to remind us of why it is so dangerous to have such a chaotic U.S. administration at such a dangerous moment. At a time like this, it would be nice if the president had a fully staffed National Security Council led by a tested, seasoned adviser — rather than an NSC that is led by a moonlighting secretary of state and that has just been purged of many of its most experienced staffers....
Click to expand...
Gravely serious point.
 
Sweden said:
The UK media are stressing that Trump was not told in advance of the brilliant Ukrainian attack. The near unamynous public reaction is that OF COURSE old blabber mouth would not be told anything of importance by anyone who valued their security. I doubt if many i the US realize tat their President in now an irrelevant figure of contempt and derision.
Click to expand...
That would have been extremely foolish to tell Dysfunctional Donald. He can't keep his mouth shut about anything.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Precisely nothing.

Of course, when it happens to the U.S. the same people cheering it now will howl about it being “terrorism”, which is rather hilarious.
Click to expand...

I hear a lot of Republicrat-level dum-dums [some/many of them call themselves 'progressive', ime] who almost 'get it' with respect to U$ policies regarding Israel. YET they somehow believe that the same class of shit puppet who crafted the MANY HIDEOUS US policie$ regarding Israel, etc. ad nau$eam, are to be believed, respected, trusted, etc. with respect to EUkraine, etc. ad nauseam?!?!... ugh...
 
Pyrite said:

Max Boot

On Sunday morning, Dec. 7, 1941, the Imperial Japanese Navy rewrote the rules of warfare. Almost no one had imagined that the Japanese could sneak across an entire ocean to attack an “impregnable fortress,” as U.S. strategists had described Hawaii. Yet that is just what they did. Japanese aircraft launched from six aircraft carriers managed to destroy or damage 328 U.S. aircraft and 19 U.S. Navy ships, including eight battleships. The Pearl Harbor attack signaled the ascendance of aircraft carriers as the dominant force in naval warfare.

The Ukrainians rewrote the rules of warfare again on Sunday. The Russian high command must have been as shocked as the Americans were in 1941 when the Ukrainians carried out a surprise attack against five Russian air bases located far from the front — two of them thousands of miles away in the Russian Far North and Siberia. The Ukrainian intelligence service, known as the SBU, managed to sneak large numbers of drones deep inside Russia in wooden cabins transported by truck, then launch them by remote control.

President Volodymyr Zelensky claimed that Operation Spiderweb, as the Ukrainians are calling it, destroyed or disabled a third of the bombers Russia has been using to launch long-range cruise missiles against Ukraine. Among the Russian planes that were hit, reportedly, were Tu-95 and Tu-22 bombers and A-50 airborne early warning and control aircraft, akin to the U.S. AWACs. (There is no independent confirmation yet of the damage.)

Little wonder that Russian military bloggers rushed to compare Sunday’s attack to the one on Pearl Harbor 84 years ago. The analogy is inapt in that, while the Pearl Harbor attack signaled the start of a new war, the airfield attack against Russia was simply another attempt by Ukrainians to defend themselves against the unprovoked war of aggression launched by Vladimir Putin in 2022. But the analogy might make sense in that both attacks could signal the obsolescence of once dominant weapons systems: battleships in 1941, manned aircraft today. Swarms of Ukrainian drones that probably cost tens of thousands of dollars to build in total might have inflicted $2 billion of damage on Russia’s most sophisticated aircraft.

In the process, the Ukrainians revealed a vulnerability that should give every general in the world sleepless nights. If the Ukrainians could sneak drones so close to major air bases in a police state such as Russia, what is to prevent the Chinese from doing the same with U.S. air bases? Or the Pakistanis with Indian air bases? Or the North Koreans with South Korean air bases?...
Click to expand...
Bravo. In 1941 it was the bad guys who attacked. Great news, this time it was the good guys on the offensive. When this war ends, Ukrainian military leadership will be in high demand. No military in the world has the knowledge, experience, and expertise on 'drone warfare' like the Ukrainian military possesses. All western democracies will be wanting to ensure their own military is able to access the knowledge of those who are the best.

We no longer know which side of this war the U.S. is on. We do not even know what values the U.S. has now.
For all of the other western democratic countries, there is no doubt about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. Most of the world still holds to the values that America used to champion. We know that most American citizens still hold to those values. We can only hope that one day, their government will once again support the ideals that America has traditionally stood for.
 
Peacenik said:
That would have been extremely foolish to tell Dysfunctional Donald. He can't keep his mouth shut about anything.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:

Ime, it's ridiculous to call yourself 'Peacenik' :rolleyes::poop: while cheering/apologizing/etc. for the World Champion terrorists, regime-change warmongers, arms dealers, etc...

Small wonder MANY decent, knowledgeable, intelligent, etc., people are ABSOLUTELY disgusted with the stinking Democrats and Republicans! ugh..
 
Last edited:
EnchantedMuggle said:
Patriot Act 2.0.

"Because taking away freedom is a travesty. Unless a Republican does it."

I can see the bumper sticker now.
Click to expand...

Every Democrat Senator except one voted for Patriot Act 1.0. That included all the big stars in the party: Biden, Clinton, Obama, Schumer, Feinstein...

EDIT: I forgot to mention that its renewal was signed into law by Obama...twice.
 
Last edited:
Sweden said:
The UK media are stressing that Trump was not told in advance of the brilliant Ukrainian attack. The near unamynous public reaction is that OF COURSE old blabber mouth would not be told anything of importance by anyone who valued their security. I doubt if many i the US realize tat their President in now an irrelevant figure of contempt and derision.
Click to expand...
Of course, we know what the civilized world thinks of Traitor Trump.

Most Americans feel the same, and stronger.
 
Sweden said:
The UK media are stressing that Trump was not told in advance of the brilliant Ukrainian attack. The near unamynous public reaction is that OF COURSE old blabber mouth would not be told anything of importance by anyone who valued their security. I doubt if many i the US realize tat their President in now an irrelevant figure of contempt and derision.
Click to expand...

"This means that when Zelensky sat through that Two Minutes of Hate session delivered jointly by Trump and JD Vance in the Oval Office last February, he had this secret caper bouncing about in the back of his head.

Ukraine’s capacity to bring the war home to Russia in such a bold fashion is also likely to encourage pro-Ukrainian Republicans who are growing anxious and impatient with Trump’s dithering."

Link

😀
 
No comment yet from Trump?

Will he say it was "genius" or "savvy?"
 
Noodlegawd said:
Every Democrat Senator except one voted for Patriot Act 1.0. That included all the big stars in the party: Biden, Clinton, Obama, Schumer, Feinstein...
Click to expand...

Ime, there has never been any important differences between these warmongering, interventionist R's and D's...

Listening to naive/ignorant R/D cheerleading fools bicker and snipe about foreign policy is sickening...
 
They used ingenuity, secrecy, and cunning to strike behind enemy lines. That doesn't really rewrite the rules of war. Legend has it that a similar strategy was used during the Trojan War, for example.
 
j brown's body said:
No comment yet from Trump?

Will he say it was "genius" or "savvy?"
Click to expand...
Trump despises Zelensky.
There's no way he'd praise anything Ukraine does.
He probably called Putin and offered up a few war planes as long as Trump got something in return, like money or a plane or Trump Tower Moscow.
 
j brown's body said:
"This means that when Zelensky sat through that Two Minutes of Hate session delivered jointly by Trump and JD Vance in the Oval Office last February, he had this secret caper bouncing about in the back of his head.

Ukraine’s capacity to bring the war home to Russia in such a bold fashion is also likely to encourage pro-Ukrainian Republicans who are growing anxious and impatient with Trump’s dithering."

Link

😀
Click to expand...
This means that when Zelensky sat through that Two Minutes of Hate session delivered jointly by Trump and JD Vance in the Oval Office last February, he had this secret caper bouncing about in the back of his head.

YEP!


I was married to a Ukrainian. The sex was fantastic until the divorce papers landed.,
 
H. E. Panqui said:
Ime anyone not a dummy understands they used a lot of Republicrat shit puppet$, the CIA, etc.. ;)
Click to expand...
Don't know. I'll have to take your word for it.
 
Sweden said:
The UK media are stressing that Trump was not told in advance of the brilliant Ukrainian attack. The near unamynous public reaction is that OF COURSE old blabber mouth would not be told anything of importance by anyone who valued their security. I doubt if many i the US realize tat their President in now an irrelevant figure of contempt and derision.
Click to expand...
It would have been insane to tell the current US government ahead of time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom