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Ukraine’s Exhausted Troops in Russia Told to Cling on And Wait for Trump (1 Viewer)

NOLA Dude said:
Thanks to the CIA.
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Another blatant lie.
NOLA Dude said:
Are you saying Ukrainians wanted the deal that reduced their pensions, reduced their fuel subsidies and that lifted the ban on private sector land ownership? 🤣

The Russian deal provided the same 15 billion loan, but without the 3 things I listed above.
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Why did the UKRAINIANS rise up against Yanukovich?
 
j brown's body said:
Because Trump supporters side with the person causing the carnage they claim to decry.

A people fighting to expell an invader are a better judge of what they want than those who support their invader.
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1.Trump supporters are not on the side of PUtin. That is a delusional thing to say. There is a war going on and people are dying, adn all you want to do is spam negs, instead of supporting the possiblity of peace. And in this, you are representative of libs as a whole.

2. When negotiations start, it will be Zelenski's job to balance the spending of more Ukrainian lives against how much Ukrainian land he wants back vs to give up. If he and Trump are on the same page, his position will be strong and well supported. If not, he will be put under pressure.


This is simple shit. With tens of thousands of lives in the balance, at min. Yet you seem far more interested in spamming your hate of Trump and Trump supporters than having any concern about the actual issues or the people dying.

I WANT PEACE and an end to the possiblity of escalation.
 
NOLA Dude said:
Because many of them have been brainwashed over and over again to support every US war or proxy war in the name of "freedom & democracy" that they think anyone who doesn't reflexively do the same is crazy.
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Brainwashing does seem to be the only explanation for the completely irratrional... delusional.... nonsense they are constantly spamming.
 
SkyChief said:
The Ukrainian troops in Russia should return home now, and not wait for Trump. Once Trump is inaugurated in January, he will have power and authority to broker a deal between Ukraine and Russia, but that could take a while.

Once Trump's Peace Accord is signed, then the Ukrainian troops will immediately be recalled back to Ukraine, so there is no reason for these troops to remain hunkered down in Russia.
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This is satire, right? Trump won't do a damn thing. Putin is hell bent on conquering Ukraine in its entirety as part of his new Soviet Union, and he won't stop until he achieves his goal. What did the West do when he annexed Crimea and occupied Georgia? Nothing.
 
snakestretcher said:
This is satire, right? Trump won't do a damn thing.
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You don't know that. For the past eight years, radical leftists have been making fools of themselves by underestimating Trump. "Trump can't possibly do that!" and then he does. "Trump won't get the support he needs to do that!" and then he does.

Trump promised to broker a deal and end the war in Ukraine. If he succeeds, he will go down in history as one of only two U.S. presidents who have ended a foreign war with diplomacy. He will likely be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. If he FAILS, he will reap the political fallout for defaulting on a campaign promise.


snakestretcher said:
Putin is hell bent on conquering Ukraine in its entirety as part of his new Soviet Union, and he won't stop until he achieves his goal.
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Nonsense. That is NOT Putin's goal. Good grief.

snakestretcher said:
What did the West do when he annexed Crimea and occupied Georgia? Nothing.
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SkyChief said:
Trump promised to broker a deal and end the war in Ukraine.
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Trump is threatening Ukraine with extortion.... "Do as I say or I will end all US support."

Only you would consider extortion worthy of a Nobel Prize.

That won't be the case with the Nobel Prize Commmittee in Sweden. A Sweden that felt compelled to join NATO in 2024 due to Putin's wars of aggression.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Trump is threatening Ukraine with extortion.... "Do as I say or I will end all US support."
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Nonsense. He never made that threat. You made it up. Trump said he WILL end U.S. support for the war in Ukraine. PERIOD.

Have gave no special conditions or ultimatums. The U.S. funding WILL stop. Trump also committed to brokering a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine, that is completely separate from ending U.S. funding.
Rogue Valley said:
Only you would consider extortion worthy of a Nobel Prize.
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LOL What a silly straw-man.
Rogue Valley said:
That won't be the case with the Nobel Prize Commmittee in Sweden. A Sweden that felt compelled to join NATO in 2024 due to Putin's wars of aggression.
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Maybe not the Nobel Prize Committee in Sweden, but the Nobel Prize Committee in Norway would most likely consider Trump for the Nobel Prize IF he manages to stop the war.
 
SkyChief said:
You don't know that. For the past eight years, radical leftists have been making fools of themselves by underestimating Trump. "Trump can't possibly do that!" and then he does. "Trump won't get the support he needs to do that!" and then he does.

Trump promised to broker a deal and end the war in Ukraine. If he succeeds, he will go down in history as one of only two U.S. presidents who have ended a foreign war with diplomacy. He will likely be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. If he FAILS, he will reap the political fallout for defaulting on a campaign promise.



Nonsense. That is NOT Putin's goal. Good grief.
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Trump is all mouth and no action-and the rubes fall for it, every time. Should we review all the promises made and broken; all the pledges not kept? If Trump actually does achieve something, I will be the first to admit i was mistaken. Unlike Trump I value honesty.

www.cfr.org

What Does Putin Really Want in Ukraine?

Russia’s early setbacks in its invasion of Ukraine could have foreclosed on some of President Vladimir Putin’s sweeping war objectives, but he is unlikely to relent given the conflict’s momentum.
www.cfr.org www.cfr.org
 
NOLA Dude said:
Thanks to the CIA.
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It's getting harder and harder to engage in thoughtful debate with a side that feasts on baseless conspiracy theories like everyday is Thanksgiving.

Again, link please. :rolleyes:
 
SkyChief said:
Nonsense. He never made that threat. You made it up. Trump said he WILL end U.S. support for the war in Ukraine. PERIOD.

Have gave no special conditions or ultimatums. The U.S. funding WILL stop. Trump also committed to brokering a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine, that is completely separate from ending U.S. funding.

LOL What a silly straw-man.

Maybe not the Nobel Prize Committee in Sweden, but the Nobel Prize Committee in Norway would most likely consider Trump for the Nobel Prize IF he manages to stop the war.
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Its as plain as day. Maybe NOLA dude will claim this was the work of the CIA.

Screenshot_20221211-123232_Brave.jpg
 
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NOLA Dude said:
In regards to war propaganda; patriotism, freedom and democracy are essential terms that make people like you think that the wars are done for altruistic reasons.

The US, NATO, the EU don't give a shit about Ukraine or their citizens. It's all about the trillions in minerals that they all want for themselves and also to weaken Russia. Graham has admitted that on TV.



Which should help explain why every shitlib on the planet has had their NPC chip updated to support this war unconditionally, regard of how much blood and treasure is lost on it.
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I don't care what you believe our or other's motives are re: Ukraine's defense.

All I have is empathy for the Ukrainians in this "special operation." Were I Ukrainian in the same situation, I would have protested in Maidan and resisted Russian invasion. I judge these both just and moral actions. YMMV.

We here in the US have a special privilege that is largely not of our own making. We don't have to worry about invasion from abroad. We have safety and security, provided in large part by those that came before us and geography. If that were not so, what would we do in Ukraine's situation? Flee? Surrender?

I judge your cowardly position for where it comes from: indifference born of privilege.
 
primaryKey said:
I don't care what you believe our or other's motives are re: Ukraine's defense.

All I have is empathy for the Ukrainians in this "special operation." Were I Ukrainian in the same situation, I would have protested in Maidan and resisted Russian invasion. I judge these both just and moral actions. YMMV.

We here in the US have a special privilege that is largely not of our own making. We don't have to worry about invasion from abroad. We have safety and security, provided in large part by those that came before us and geography. If that were not so, what would we do in Ukraine's situation? Flee? Surrender?

I judge your cowardly position for where it comes from: indifference born of privilege.
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I think you missed the point.


The point is that those supporting the war over here, do NOT have empathy for the ukrainians, they are using them to bleed our enemy. THey are willing to spend the lives of ukrianians to weaken Russia.


AS OPPOSED TO MAKING PEACE.
 
Corbell said:
I think you missed the point.


The point is that those supporting the war over here, do NOT have empathy for the ukrainians, they are using them to bleed our enemy. THey are willing to spend the lives of ukrianians to weaken Russia.
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I didn't miss the point. My counterpoint is: So ****ing What?

Do you actually think Ukrainians care WHY aid is provided, or do you think they care THAT aid is provided?

Whether the defense of Ukraine OR the weakening of Russia is the west's actual objective or the beneficial side-effect is of no actual consequence as long as Ukrainians are begging for aid to defend their homeland. When that stops, the calculus changes.
Corbell said:
AS OPPOSED TO MAKING PEACE.
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Peace in and of itself is a wonderful choice for the aggressor. Such as the US in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan or Russia in Ukraine today.

However, unjust peace is worse than no peace when your country is being invaded by a foreign aggressor. Think Poland, France, Russia in WW2 or the US in 1812.

We have relied of foreign aid more than once in our troubled past. Do you think we were concerned with why the aid was coming? You can deal with that down the road, if and when you successfully defend your homeland. If you don't win, then you're lost.
 
primaryKey said:
I didn't miss the point. My counterpoint is: So ****ing What?

Do you actually think Ukrainians care WHY aid is provided, or do you think they care THAT aid is provided?

Whether the defense of Ukraine OR the weakening of Russia is the west's actual objective or the beneficial side-effect is of no actual consequence as long as Ukrainians are begging for aid to defend their homeland. When that stops, the calculus changes.
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Because I don't want to see those ukrainians die. I want to see them live and survive and have families and live happily ever after.



primaryKey said:
Peace in and of itself is a wonderful choice for the aggressor. Such as the US in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan or Russia in Ukraine today.

However, unjust peace is worse than no peace when your country is being invaded by a foreign aggressor. Think Poland, France, Russia in WW2 or the US in 1812.

We have relied of foreign aid more than once in our troubled past. Do you think we were concerned with why the aid was coming? You can deal with that down the road, if and when you successfully defend your homeland. If you don't win, then you're lost.
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Peace is pretty good for the defender too, if it means that they get to stop dying. And if it means that they get to win, in that they survive.

Ukraine is the much smaller country. They've done very well, SO FAR, but neither we nor they can count on that forever. They might run out of men, or just have morale break. THe russians might find promote a better military leader and start doing better. Putin might get a good idea. Anything could go wrong and their resistance could fail.

Ending the fighting takes that off the table too.


Your assumption that the peace will be unjust is just... not called for. imo.
 
What I'm hearing now, is that with Russian victory inevitable, and Trump winding down support for the war by seeking a peace agreement, the Deep State is now building a consensus for the following:

All of Ukraine west of the Dniepr will be annexed by Poland and thus be under NATO protection.

The portion of Ukraine east of the Dniepr can then become a buffer state outside of NATO, minus whatever territory has been taken by Russia which will be incorporated into Russia.

The only part that hasn't been decided on yet is the port city of Odessa.

Buh-bye, Ukraine, We Hardly Knew Ye. 😭 :sneaky:
 
Corbell said:
Because I don't want to see those ukrainians die. I want to see them live and survive and have families and live happily ever after.
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Imagine a world where losing your country's territorial integrity or sovereignty isn't necessarily living happily ever after.

Corbell said:
Peace is pretty good for the defender too, if it means that they get to stop dying. And if it means that they get to win, in that they survive.

Ukraine is the much smaller country. They've done very well, SO FAR, but neither we nor they can count on that forever. They might run out of men, or just have morale break. THe russians might find promote a better military leader and start doing better. Putin might get a good idea. Anything could go wrong and their resistance could fail.
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Any of this could happen, but the opposite could also happen. Ukraine bettered their bargaining position by taking the Kursk region. Putin is having troubles at home as well.
Corbell said:
Ending the fighting takes that off the table too.
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Exactly, but at what cost for Ukraine?
Corbell said:
Your assumption that the peace will be unjust is just... not called for. imo.
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No? Imagine yourself in a different situation. China invades the US through Mexico. Would you fight or surrender? Maybe just give them California or Texas? Many people will die, right? Peace at any cost is not necessarily a just peace.
 
NOLA Dude said:
And yet they would never even consider going to fight themselves.

They would rather clap like seals at all the death and destruction from the safety of their couch.
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This is the anthem of Democrats now...

 
primaryKey said:
Imagine a world where losing your country's territorial integrity or sovereignty isn't necessarily living happily ever after.
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"losing sovereighty" is pretty vague. **** you could make the argument that the illegals in this country defines US that way. Are you willing to fight to the last man to get the illegals out?

primaryKey said:
Any of this could happen, but the opposite could also happen. Ukraine bettered their bargaining position by taking the Kursk region. Putin is having troubles at home as well.
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Russia is unlikely to lose in the same manner. Size matters and Russia is much larger than Ukraine. If PUTIN loses, he will be replaced by someone similar, who is just as likely to not want to give up any land that the russian army is sitting on.




primaryKey said:
Exactly, but at what cost for Ukraine?
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THAT is the question to be discussed. My hope, and somewhat bolstered by Putins actions of making a last minute push, is that it is likely to be what they have managed to take so far, or very close to that. Historically freezing hte lines, where they are in the real world, goes over easier than giving up land that your people died to take.

Ukraine would be mostly intact and maintain access to the sea in that scenario.


primaryKey said:
No? Imagine yourself in a different situation. China invades the US through Mexico. Would you fight or surrender? Maybe just give them California or Texas? Many people will die, right? Peace at any cost is not necessarily a just peace.
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No one said anything like "peace at any cost" .

THe reasonable question here is the one you asked above. "At what cost to Ukraine".

Indeed, that is really almost the only question. Ok, not that strongly... that is the primary, no, the core question.
 
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