UK EU referendum [W:40:728]

[PeteEU]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Bloomberg reports that recruiters in London is already seeing a fear of Brexit slowdown in recruiting. Add to that, that companies have already announced a reduction of staff in the UK, if there is a Brexit.. then I can not see how the Brexit camp can justify their claims that "it will be alright".

 

[Andalublue]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

I wonder if many people are taking into consideration that on the 23rd they will also be effectively voting for a new government too. Should Brexit win, Cameron will be gone in a matter of weeks, and Osborne too. The Johnson/Gove alliance will take over the government and, being the committed democrats that they are, would refuse to call a general election. The UK would have an unelected government for 3 years having just voted out of the EU because of a desire to return sovereignty to the British people. How ironic would that be?

 

[joG]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Bloomberg reports that recruiters in London is already seeing a fear of Brexit slowdown in recruiting. Add to that, that companies have already announced a reduction of staff in the UK, if there is a Brexit.. then I can not see how the Brexit camp can justify their claims that "it will be alright".

If they handled it the way they say they will, the EU would certainly willfully cause a depression in the UK, the whole European area will have a recession following a Brexit. There can be no doubt about that. And seeing how the EU treated Greece, I doubt the eurocrats would care much about the pain to the peoples whose well being they are responsible for.

Were the UK and EU to handle it sensibly, however, in the meaning doing the best for their people, there would be not a ripple in the water.

 

[joG]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

I wonder if many people are taking into consideration that on the 23rd they will also be effectively voting for a new government too. Should Brexit win, Cameron will be gone in a matter of weeks, and Osborne too. The Johnson/Gove alliance will take over the government and, being the committed democrats that they are, would refuse to call a general election. The UK would have an unelected government for 3 years having just voted out of the EU because of a desire to return sovereignty to the British people. How ironic would that be?

Why unelected? In a parliamentary system it is Parliament you elect and not the Executive. In other words, it is the Legislative that names its leaders to government and can in almost every constitution I have read (I know. UK hasn't one) the Legislative can replace the governing group. This is one of the major flaws of that system of democracy. But, the government would be elected.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Why unelected? In a parliamentary system it is Parliament you elect and not the Executive. In other words, it is the Legislative that names its leaders to government and can in almost every constitution I have read (I know. UK hasn't one) the Legislative can replace the governing group. This is one of the major flaws of that system of democracy. But, the government would be elected.

Because had the Conservative Party presented themselves for election under Boris Johnson and Michael Gove in 2015, we'd have had Prime Minister Milliband. Isn't this the exact issue that the Tories used to attack and defeat Gordon Brown in 2010? That he was an unelected PM and refused to call an election when he took over in 2007?

In the 2010 GE campaign the Tories argued strongly that any such change of leader should require a general election to take place within 6 months, yet funnily enough, when the coalition government took the reins, no such requirement was written into the Fixed-term Parliaments Act of 2011.


The UK does have a constitution BTW, just not a codified one.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

If they handled it the way they say they will, the EU would certainly willfully cause a depression in the UK, the whole European area will have a recession following a Brexit. There can be no doubt about that. And seeing how the EU treated Greece, I doubt the eurocrats would care much about the pain to the peoples whose well being they are responsible for.

Were the UK and EU to handle it sensibly, however, in the meaning doing the best for their people, there would be not a ripple in the water.

Listen, you dont seem to understand how the world works.

What the Eurocrats do or not do, is irrelevant at the moment. The effects of insecurity and uncertainty is already showing in the UK economy and that is without any Eurocrats involvement. Like it or not the UK is screwed. Why? Simple logic.

If the UK votes to leave the following will happen.

1) Cameron will have to resign. Who will take over? Will there be election? Regardless politically there will be massive insecurity.. this impacts the markets and dont even try to deny that. How long will this last? If there is an election, then that would mean months. If they do a "Gordon Brown", then the legitimacy of the government will be put in question. Will the Tory Remain people strike back and join the opposition to kick out a Tory government? So much insecurity... bad for markets and the economy.

2) Negotiations with the EU on a leave have to start.. but they cant start before the above political cluster**** is resolved. This will mean the supposed 2 years, will be cut by many months. But no idea on what will happen creates insecurity, which hits the markets and companies. So basically the EU does not have to do anything to hurt the UK (which seems to be your theme)... the UK will be doing that it self.

3) With a leave, the major companies will put their plans into action. Due to the unknowns of what will happen, companies will start on day 1 to move assets and people out of the UK to the EU... they are already doing it btw. Over time, with no quick resolution on the political solution, the more companies will move jobs overseas. One of the first will be the car companies, which account for 12% of the UK exports... that will cause a huge shock in the UK economy.

So "handling sensibly" wont happen since you have to resolve the civil war in the Tory party first before you can even remotely deal with the EU, and in the mean time the markets will make your choices for you.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Brexit are falling apart... they are having defections again due to their fearmongering and lies.. at least there are some on the Brexit side that can see that the "lie till you win" strategy is morally wrong.

Tory MP Sarah Wollaston Switches Sides In EU Referendum Campaign

and of course the Brexit crazies are out claiming she was a plant, she is a traitor and worse... only proving she was right in leaving. Brexit is more conspiracy theory these days than reality.

 

[joG]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Because had the Conservative Party presented themselves for election under Boris Johnson and Michael Gove in 2015, we'd have had Prime Minister Milliband. Isn't this the exact issue that the Tories used to attack and defeat Gordon Brown in 2010? That he was an unelected PM and refused to call an election when he took over in 2007?

In the 2010 GE campaign the Tories argued strongly that any such change of leader should require a general election to take place within 6 months, yet funnily enough, when the coalition government took the reins, no such requirement was written into the Fixed-term Parliaments Act of 2011.


The UK does have a constitution BTW, just not a codified one.

Of course they used it against Brown. But that just one of the continuous populisms that our politicians use to avoid cumbersome explanations that nobody would be interested in listening to.
But it is not a sensible argument in the logic of the law and of the optimization of political systems. If we were to drop this position of the law it would destroy the chimera of the division of powers, which is elementary to checks and balances of power in political structures.

PS: But yes. You are right that the UK has a constitution and that it is the codification that is missing. Interesting that the EU has a codification without legally speaking a constitution. Remarkable.

PPS: Yes! I realize that we would say that any commons has a constitution in an informal way.

 

[joG]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Listen, you dont seem to understand how the world works.

......

I am sooo happy that you would explain it to me. Thank you.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Watching BBC News atm.. some Brexit guy, standing there lying and not answering the question..

Interviewer asks: "Will you gaurantee that no jobs will be lost with a Brexit?"

Brexit guy: "We will have safer and better jobs" ... Interviewer asks again... he does not reply...

And then he has the balls to complain about "EU citizens" (read Romanians, Poles) maybe being able to vote, when he fully knows that Irish and Commenwealth members have the ability to vote despite not being British citizens!!!!!... ****ing hypocrite!

 

[joG]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Brexit are falling apart... they are having defections again due to their fearmongering and lies.. at least there are some on the Brexit side that can see that the "lie till you win" strategy is morally wrong.

Tory MP Sarah Wollaston Switches Sides In EU Referendum Campaign

and of course the Brexit crazies are out claiming she was a plant, she is a traitor and worse... only proving she was right in leaving. Brexit is more conspiracy theory these days than reality.

It is more the Stay In populists ranting and with foam flying from their mouths that seem most amusing these days.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

~ And then he has the balls to complain about "EU citizens" (read Romanians, Poles) maybe being able to vote ~

The only EU citizens who can vote are from the UK, Cyprus and Malta. Whoever that was on TV was lying.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Of course they used it against Brown. But that just one of the continuous populisms that our politicians use to avoid cumbersome explanations that nobody would be interested in listening to.
But it is not a sensible argument in the logic of the law and of the optimization of political systems. If we were to drop this position of the law it would destroy the chimera of the division of powers, which is elementary to checks and balances of power in political structures.

I don't understand the point you're making. Are you agreeing with me?

My point was to highlight the possible irony of these self-professed democracy campaigners assuming power without going through the inconvenience of winning a general election, especially as it is the putative argument of the UK being ruled by an unelected élite that they are currently campaigning on.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

The only EU citizens who can vote are from the UK, Cyprus and Malta. Whoever that was on TV was lying.

Sorry but you are wrong.

uk-voters - About my vote

You can vote in this referendum if you are registered to vote in the UK, are 18 or over on 23 June 2016 and are:

A British or Irish citizen living in the UK, or
A Commonwealth citizen living in the UK who has leave to remain in the UK or who does not require leave to remain in the UK, or
A British citizen living overseas who has been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years, or
An Irish citizen living overseas who was born in Northern Ireland and who has been registered to vote in Northern Ireland in the last 15 years.

Irish citizens are EU citizens.. why do they get a vote? Could it be that it is because that they are 3rd largest migrant population of the UK? Why do Commonwealth citizens get a vote? Could it be that the biggest migrant group is Indian aka commonwealth?

 

[joG]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

I don't understand the point you're making. Are you agreeing with me?

My point was to highlight the possible irony of these self-professed democracy campaigners assuming power without going through the inconvenience of winning a general election, especially as it is the putative argument of the UK being ruled by an unelected élite that they are currently campaigning on.

In a way I am agreeing. Our societies have tended increasingly to argue political issues by populism and emotion. That was remarked nicely by Blair who always wanted his "spin doctors" to work his phrases out. So yes. It was populist then as it is now.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Sorry but you are wrong.

uk-voters - About my vote

My bad, I forgot the Irish living in the UK.

Irish citizens are EU citizens.. why do they get a vote? ~ Why do Commonwealth citizens get a vote? ~

That's basically the rules of UK general elections. They get to vote in them too. The big difference is that members of the House of Lords and Gibraltarians also get to vote ~ normally wouldn't in a UK general election.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

My bad, I forgot the Irish living in the UK.



That's basically the rules of UK general elections. They get to vote in them too. The big difference is that members of the House of Lords and Gibraltarians also get to vote ~ normally wouldn't in a UK general election.

Yes those are the rules... and they are horse**** dont you think? That a bunch of foreigners can vote on national issues.. and lets not forget all those Indians and if we really want to go full UKIP:.. all those darn Muslims!

And Gibraltarans should be able to vote.. kinda. It is a colony, so based on that no.. but they are considered British citizens, so then yes.. but then again most of them have not lived in the UK, which is another rule (15 year rule), so why should they be able to vote but not the British pensioner or worker who has lived overseas for 15+ years?

The election rules are a bit... idiotic (as are the Danish btw.. no Danes living abroad can vote).

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Yes those are the rules... and they are horse**** dont you think?

Cut this out. I won't respond again otherwise.

~ so why should they be able to vote but not the British pensioner or worker who has lived overseas for 15+ years?

Simple, if someone has lived overseas for 15+ years then they are considered to have settled overseas.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Cut this out. I won't respond again otherwise.

So you wont be critical of your own countries rules? I am critical, highly critical of Danish rules barring any Dane living overseas from being able to vote for anything... despite many paying taxes to Denmark..

Simple, if someone has lived overseas for 15+ years then they are considered to have settled overseas.

Yes and it is silly no? They are still British citizens no?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

So you wont be critical of your own countries rules? I am critical, highly critical of Danish rules barring any Dane living overseas from being able to vote for anything... despite many paying taxes to Denmark..

You won't find me uncritical of my country - it's your language I'm responding to. Can't you debate without the expletives?

Yes and it is silly no? They are still British citizens no?

judges said, was entitled to adopt a cut-off period “at which extended residence abroad might indicate a weakening of ties with the United Kingdom”.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Anyone else see the new Vote Leave TV broadcast today?

Claims

• Cameron spending taxpayer cash to speed up Turkey's accession to EU.
• Turkey and 4 other new nations to join EU soon.
• £350 million going to EU every week.
• Brexit (sort of) claiming that £350 million will be spent on the NHS instead.

Wish I could find a link.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

so... you are not British "enough" because you lived abroad for more than 15 years... I see... but an Irish citizen who is not a British citizen, is "British enough", along with an Indian, Pakistani and Australian.. just because they happen to live in the UK... but of course that does not count for the Pole or German.. yea that is sooo logical and reasonable!

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

so... you are not British "enough" because you lived abroad for more than 15 years... I see... but an Irish citizen who is not a British citizen, is "British enough", along with an Indian, Pakistani and Australian.. just because they happen to live in the UK...

You DO understand loosened ties?

~ but of course that does not count for the Pole or German.. yea that is sooo logical and reasonable!

That is another matter. I hope you complained when all the previous elections did the same?

 

[phil752]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

so... you are not British "enough" because you lived abroad for more than 15 years... I see... but an Irish citizen who is not a British citizen, is "British enough", along with an Indian, Pakistani and Australian.. just because they happen to live in the UK... but of course that does not count for the Pole or German.. yea that is sooo logical and reasonable!

Just viewed an interview with two Polish ladies. One had taken UK citizenship the other had not. Both had lived in the UK for that same time. The former could vote in the referendum, the latter could not. I guess it depends on your status but it seems your statement is incorrect.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Some pretty good points made last night in the televised ITV debate by both sides - including some of the worries I've had if we remain.

Economically I feel we are better off in, especially if we are paying before and after Brexit for the access we have now but Boris Johnson's quote about being "trapped in a car, on a journey we don't want to be on, going to a destination we don't want to go to" had particular resonance for me.